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Forested Hill Choke is Ridiculous

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by misterslack, Sep 9, 2008.

  1. misterslack

    misterslack Chieftain

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    This technique is stupidly overpowered. I remember in the original civilization putting a phalanx on a hill and watching the AI suicide units into it for 2000 years until they finally killed it, at which point you put another phalanx up. Apparently a decade of this type of abuse at the hands of thousands of players was so traumatic for the AI that it now refuses to go anywhere near ancient-era units infesting local forested hills.

    For those who aren't familiar with this, it's simply taking your starting warrior, finding an enemy civ, declaring war, and fortifying your warrior on a forested hill directly adjacent to their city. The enemy civ will never move a settler out of their city when an enemy is adjacent. They will turtle in their capitol for thousands of years even though they have 5-6 archers sitting there who could easily take out your warrior. I don't even think they'll move a worker out to improve their land. This strategy completely takes one civ out of the game for the cost of a single warrior. When they finally do destroy the offender it's too late, because you've REX'd all of their land and now swoop in for the kill on their juicy capitol.

    This strategy is broken on emperor and immortal; I'm not sure how well it would work on deity with the second settler the AI starts with. I really hope Firaxis changes the AI to be able to deal with this kind of thing, as I cannot resist the temptation to use it and feel very dirty afterwards.
     
  2. Permanganate

    Permanganate Chieftain

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    I did this in a recent AW OCC when I found Monty's capital a dozen tiles away from mine. He did mass troops for about 2000 years, yes, but the first time he attacked, he used an archer and killed my warrior. Yes, this strategy is too effective, but they don't always sit there forever.
     
  3. Kalyse

    Kalyse Chieftain

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    Why attack when the odds are stupidely in your favour?
     
  4. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Deity is a bit different. Wang K. for example starts with

    2 Settlers
    1 worker
    2 scouts
    4 archers !!!!

    Your warrior (ahem) warriors wont last very long. And by the time you get a better unit to do this, you are swamped as Deity loves to spam archers all over AND FAST. Anyhow, starting a BC war on Deity is almost always axis death, unless you send in mass warchariots or something like that. Which, then defeats the purpose of choking in the first place.
     
  5. SwordofStriker

    SwordofStriker Prince

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    It doesn't exactly work the way you're making it out. The AI most certainly will move their workers and settlers out the far side of their city. I've seen it numerous times. Unless you have units on opposing sides of the city they often move units out of the city when they feel the need to.
     
  6. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    Since no-one is twisting your arm to use this strategy, that's really your problem, isn't it?
     
  7. Rusty Edge

    Rusty Edge Deity

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    While I agree with the original poster about it being an exploit once upon a time( Warlords version?), I thought that one of the patches or updates changed the A.I. behavior , as you describe, so that it's less effective now.
     
  8. TheDS

    TheDS Regular Riot

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    I'll agree to it being less useful now. In my current game, I tried a choke on Monty, sure he'd wipe me with his UU as soon as he got it, and I had no Copper. Though I kept him occupying his capital for a while, and snagged a Worker, he still built a lot of units and kept researching. He started trying to send a Settler out with a pair of Archers for escort, doing that twice, but both times decided against it. Finally he attacked and killed my guy, and as I was still REXing and had no real army, I sued for peace.

    He then spit out a bunch of Settlers in a short space of time and quickly closed about half of the tech and production lead I had. As his UU didn't even require Iron, he had a bunch of them, and my only saving graces were the lack of forest between us and their ST of 5 vice 6. I managed to throw out a bunch of Swords and Axes and slowly but surely took him down, but it was expensive and took a while to get my tech up. Beelining Astronomy helped a lot.
     
  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Choke a little further off. Like, JUST outside their borders. They'll still settle, but settle away a bit. On non-deity this lets you use archers/settlers to settle right in the AIs face, take peace, and have way more land than you should...like 10-12 cities worth of it.

    Yes, even immortal, although it can be pretty hard to execute on immortal. You need the archers, but if you get them behind walls (one of the few times protective is useful! Yay!) they'll basically own everything pre-cats, and idiot AIs like monty WILL suicide into them.
     
  10. Fredric Drum

    Fredric Drum Civilizator

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    How about... DON'T do it?
     
  11. Joshua368

    Joshua368 Warmongering builder

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    You're a crazy person.
     
  12. akillias

    akillias Prince

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    What if you have two?
     
  13. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    The ai is stupid...play with humans!
     
  14. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    No it's not ridiculous. In fact, I don't really think choking works in BTS anymore, not that it was ever truly effective in vanilla in the first place.

    I actually tried it. Everytime I do it, some AI builds 2 archers and kills my warrior, or 2 warriors, anyway. Either I'm not doing it properly or we're talking about a different expansion.

    Rushing, on the other hand, still works wonders. And actually, if you have a strategic resource in your capital, a rush works even in deity level. But you really have to be chopping and whipping ruthlessly.
     
  15. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    If your playing with only 1 Ai it would make the game a bit dull and pointless. This is why playing with fewer AI's makes games easier at times. Although playing with 11 AI's makes game last hours.

    I think on top of this strategy is the worker stealing strategy. Below a certain level they always build a worker first.

    The downside to this is the capital will have 4-6 archers defending it come the later game. If protective this can be a pain if you want to take the city early on.
     
  16. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    5-7 barrage upgraded suicide catapults and 4-6 swordsmen will take care of that though ;)
     
  17. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Mixing barrage and CR is optimal but a damned pain, even if you promote just before attacking :p.

    When the survival rate is lower you want barrage to raise the damage, but once they're hurt enough, you want CR as it raises the odds of you keeping your siege, considerably.
     
  18. Merkill

    Merkill Chieftain

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    why fix this ?
    This is not a strategy its clearly exploiting if you just rush over to ai next to city square inside bfc and forify to pin it down at start of game ,just like the abuse of ICS in civ3 or any big exploits simply dont do it , game is not broken you are breaking it.

    Whats the point of playing higher levels and then shoot the ai in the foot at start of game with this exploit? just to prove you can win at high level or what?

    Anyway its a game i hope you have fun playing it the way you want to play it.
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Er...it's pretty difficult to do it at high levels, and there are costs associated with doing so, even if they're worth it. I haven't tried much deity yet, but I'd suggest you take obsolete's advice there. Judging by my early "quasi-choke" experimentation on immortal, which is successful but difficult, it would be very, very hard to do it on deity unless the AI does something weird or you get a very favorable start. Shoot them in the foot? You can easily get declared on and lose :p.

    Also, have you ever been choked this way in MP? If you don't have strategic resources, it can actually be pretty obnoxious, and it *will* slow you down at minimal expense to the person doing it. You'd be surprised how annoying it is to have an archer parked on a hill next to your capitol, at very best you're not working that hill for a while (god forbid it has metal), and dislodging it is a 2x force proposition that forces you to use more hammers than normal.

    Archers are REALLY important in MP quite often.
     
  20. Merkill

    Merkill Chieftain

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    Sure enough it would be very potent in mp against another player and other players are fair game after all :)

    I only play prince/monarch on normal speed so for me it would feel like exploiting and i would not use such metods as it would shoot the ai in the foot at that level if i run in bfc and pin it down without attacking at the start of game with the sole purpose of slowing the ai expansion down i think.

    I dont like to play at higher levels where i have to maximize every last bit as i rather play on levels where i still have some freedom in gameplay.

    But it would probably not work the same at those super high levels when ai starts with more units as you said.

    It all comes down to what diff level you can or prefer to play at i guess.
     

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