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[BTS] Forges?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by scheines, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. scheines

    scheines Warlord

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    Do you make forges in most cities? Why or why not?

    Latest discussion I could find was here, and it's quite old. So, I thought I'd ask. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/forge-every-city.265405/.

    I assumed the answer would match those given for most buildings (don't make most buildings), but Lain seems to build forges in a significant majority of games I have seen. Perhaps it's just a coincidence, but for instance, in the below video / playlist, he makes one in each city early on.

    Is it just a question of how much more whipping you'll be doing in a city? Because it definitely doesn't seem like the plain old production bonus is worth it in most cities until you're using workshops.

     
  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I think the consensus here is that forges are OK. I'm less of a fan, say in a typical cuirassier attack type of game I think the timing works usually better without forges. IND forges OTOH are pretty sweet.

    Yes, if you don't have pop to whip, a forge is not going to do much.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
  3. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Agree with Sampsa. IND forges are too cheap not to get up fast. Otherwise, it's really just a timing thing on where MC falls in terms of ye olde Cur rush. MC is something I usually trade for at some point before the Libbing bulbarooski. but depends on when I can get that trade. But ideally I get it soon enough that I can get up some forges in the good cities. It does certainly help with Cur whips.

    IMO forges are good buildings but certainly are not always needed.

    During the period that I probably do acquire MC, I'm usually running Caste/Pac, so it depends on how optimal or beneficial it is to get some out when I'm back in slavery before the Cur rushing. If I get MC early enough, I might be able to at least slow build some in some cities.
     
  4. civac

    civac Warlord

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    My current understanding is as follows. If you are not going for some timing attack with classical or medieval units or super fast cuirassiers forges are worth it almost everywhere. The exception are certain commerce cities that have low food and no production. They are however expensive and should not be build too early. Organized religion really helps as do math chops if you have some left. If you do go for a timing attack you'd have to estimate whether they are worth it depending on your research and industrial base (and thus attack date and army size).
     
  5. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    People don't often realize that Forges apart from a +25% hammer multiplier that applies to whips and chops as well, are also pretty good happiness buildings. Sort of "getting two birds with one stone" there. Not to mention you need to build 6 Forges on a standard map to unlock Ironworks which is crucial in Space games.
     
  6. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    In almost all of them. My games are seldom over until the Modern era or later, and like others have said, above, the whipping/chopping bonuses and the happiness are just too good to do without. Even the Engineer slot comes in handy sometimes, in those high food/low hammer locations.
     
  7. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    There's an ironic trade off though. forges are best for happiness if you have gold, silver, and gems for the full +3 happiness bonus. BUT, if you have all three of those, you probably don't need much happiness anyway. If you only have 1 of those, you could really use more happiness, but is it worth building a forge just for +1 happiness?
     
  8. SittinDown

    SittinDown King Supporter

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    In Lain's Frederick game, he didn't go for a Cur rush - he want with Cannons. So it may be that Forges are better for a cannon attack?
     
  9. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    Fair point if you have just one. But I disagree about not needing happiness if you have all three. I always run into massive war weariness unhappiness by the Renaissance, to the point where I'm chasing whoever built the Pyramids just so I can run Police State. More happiness also means I can put off Emancipation for longer. Whipping a Forge is a priority in a captured city.
     
  10. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Well I wouldn't build a Forge solely for the happy bonus very often but +2 happy faces on average is nothing to sneeze at for a building you'd build anyways.
     
  11. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Basically whipping a forge has no penalty (get 1 unhappy, gain 1-3 happy).
     
  12. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Sure, in that case it makes sense. I just wouldn't built them in advance thinking "well i'll need happiness eventually". Build more wealth/research/military instead, and save the forges for when you really need them.
     
  13. drewisfat

    drewisfat King

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    I build forges in every real city unless I've already started military unit production. Big thing on the happiness front is maximizing resource trades, trading a garbage resource that only gives one happiness for one that gives two happiness, even if it's your only copy. I never have surplus happiness. If I do I'll give more resources away for GPT.
     
  14. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    @pi-r8 Agree. The first building I build in the vast majority of my cities is a granary. Forges aren't built until either the hammer or happiness payoff makes them worthwhile.
     
  15. SittinDown

    SittinDown King Supporter

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    in Lain's Frederick game, he waited until researching steel to slow-build start forges and barracks while running Caste and OR to make great merchants. then he switched to Slavery to whip some forges, and (because of trading issues) later switch to Theocracy to whip a catapult and a trebuchet in every city - all in about the span of 8 turns. [he also whipped the units, but didn't l et them finish until steel was ready]. he used 2 great merchants to upgrade them to level 2 cannons en-masse.

    seems like the forge was useful for whipping those units rapidly - he had so-so land, so the forge made whipping units more efficient, which he needed because regrowth wasn't going to be that fast. he also wanted to get to grenadiers, so he didn't want to kill his tech rate by building units gradually or whipping away too many good tiles.

    so that's i guess an instance of deferring the forge and barracks to instead pour it into beakers via building research and scientists, so that you can get a breakout unit (cannons) early, and then really launch your army fast because you have all that population stored up to turn into units.
     
  16. Lennier

    Lennier Emperor

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    But the forge gives +25% to your building of wealth/research/military. So if you don't need the 1-3 :) now, you just have to determine if the :hammers:s put into the forge will pay off in the increased production.
     
  17. SittinDown

    SittinDown King Supporter

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    At 120 hammers, it takes a too long for that extra 25% to pay off early-mid game, when you're not working a lot of hammer tiles. Later once windmills are decent, or if you have a lot food-ok hammer tiles [brown cow, green metal], it could be useful. I have been underwhelmed by the times I built a forge and worked plains hills for wealth or research.
     
  18. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I haven't watched Lain's Freddy game yet, so can't really comment on that. However I want to point out that since a forge makes 1pop worth 7,5:hammers: more you need to whip 120/7,5=16pop (when building a forge running OR, 120/1,25/7,5=12,8pop) for the forge to break even in :hammers:. Of course, maybe you are growing past your :)-cap if you don't whip and so on. Maybe you have some 2:food:4:hammers:, 1:food:5:hammers: and/or 3:food:3:hammers: tile that you want to work anyway, so you might gain 2:hammers: pt from a forge. Still, it does require a pretty good city or a pretty late attack for a non-IND forge to be really good.
     
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  19. drewisfat

    drewisfat King

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    There's value in getting 4 pop whips down to 3 pop whips and 3 pop whips down to 2 pop whips. I also feel like the cuir example is exactly when it makes sense to build forges. I'm always twiddling my thumbs for a couple dozen turns while I work my way to the right techs. I can't build cuirs yet, so I don't need to build X cuirs before the forge pays itself off and is justified. The relevant opportunity cost is often building wealth, which I can't whip and gets a future boost from forges as well.
     
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  20. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    I def. want Forges in all cities that are not hopeless for unit production.
    Sometimes a city lags behind and can better contribute by focusing on something else..but core cities get Forges for Cannons, Cuirs etc..no question.
     
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