Former UN drugs Czar says: "Drugs are bad mmkay"

Brian Shanahan

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From todays Observer comment section:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/05/legalisation-drugs-antonio-maria-costa?showallcomments=true#start-of-comments

Legalise drugs and a worldwide epidemic of addiction will follow

Those who argue we should decriminalise the trade in narcotics are blind to the catastrophic consequenses
Antonio Maria Costa
The Observer, Sunday 5 September 2010


The debate between those who dream of a world free of drugs and those who hope for a world of free drugs has been raging for years. I believe the dispute between prohibition and legalisation would be more fruitful if it focused on the appropriate degree of regulation for addictive substances (drugs, but also alcohol and tobacco) and how to attain such regulation.

Current international agreements are hard to change. All nations, with no exception, agree that illicit drugs are a threat to health and that their production, trade and use should be regulated. In fact, adherence to the UN's drug conventions is virtually universal and no statutory changes are possible unless the majority of states agree – quite unlikely, in the foreseeable future. Yet important improvements to today's system are needed and achievable, especially in areas where current controls have produced serious collateral damage.

Why such resistance to abolishing the controls? In part, because the conventions' success in restraining both supply and demand of drugs is undeniable.

Look first at production. Drug controls slashed global opium supply dramatically: in 2007, it was one-third the level of 1907. What about recent trends? Over the last 10 years, world output of cocaine, amphetamines and ecstasy has stabilised, and in many instances dropped. Cannabis output has declined since 2004. Since the mid-90s, opium production moved from the Golden Triangle to Afghanistan where it grew exponentially at first, but started to decline (since 2008).

My first point is factual: in the distant past as well as recently, production controls have had measurable results. What about drug-use levels? There are 25 million addicts (daily use) in the world, 0.6% of the population. Ten times as many people (5% of the world's population) take drugs at least once a year. As these amounts are relatively small, statements such as "there are drugs everywhere" or "everybody takes drugs" are nonsense. The drug numbers compare well with those of tobacco, a legal drug used by 30% of the world's population. Even more people consume alcohol. Tobacco causes 5 million deaths per year and alcohol 2 million, against the 200,000 killed by illicit drugs.

My second point is logical: in the absence of controls, it is not fanciful to imagine drug addiction, and related deaths, as high as those of tobacco and alcohol. What are recent drug-use trends? In rich countries, addiction is high but declining. In North America and Australia, it has declined in the past 10 years, especially among the young. In Europe, opiates use has declined, offset by greater cocaine sales; cannabis and amphetamines are stable or lower. In developing countries, drug use is low, but growing. In South America and west Africa, this applies to cannabis and cocaine; in Asia and southern Africa to heroin.

My third point is intuitive: rich countries are addressing the drug problem, while poor countries lack resources to do so. With the building blocks of my reasoning in place (stability of the world drug supply; alcohol and tobacco hurt more than drugs; the divergent drug trends in poor and rich nations), I find it irrational to propose policies that would increase the public health damage caused by drugs by making them more freely available.

At the same time, drug controls are not working as they should. The resulting collateral damage is the platform upon which critics build the abolitionist argument.

Let's look at health, security and human rights. Health must be at the centre of drug control, because drug addiction is a mix of genetic, personal and social factors: gene variants (predisposition), childhood (neglect), social conditions (poverty). The pharmacological effects of drugs on health are independent of their legal status. Drugs are not dangerous because they are illegal: they are illegal because they are dangerous to health. Unfortunately, ideology has displaced health from the mainstream of the drug debate and this has happened on both sides of the prohibition versus legalisation dispute.

In the past half-century, drug control rhetoric by governments has been right, but prevention and treatment programmes have lagged. Priority was wrongly given to repression and criminalisation. Similarly, those in favour of legalisation have lost sight of health as the priority. They prioritise handing out condoms and clean needles, while addicts need prevention, treatment and reintegration, not only harm reduction gadgets. In short, the debate on drug policy has turned into a political battle. But why? There are no ideological debates about curing cancer, so why so much politics in dealing with drug addiction?

But there is more. Drugs do harm to health, but they can also do good. Greater use of opiates for palliative care would overcome the socio-economic factors that deny a Nigerian suffering from Aids or a Mexican cancer patient the morphine offered to Italian or American counterparts. Yet such relief is not happening.

Next is the security question. Drugs pose a threat not only to individuals. Entire regions – think of Central America, the Caribbean and Africa – are caught in the crossfire of drug trafficking. In Mexico, a bloody drug war has erupted among crime groups fighting for the control of the US drug market. The legalisers' argument on security is striking, though it leads to the wrong conclusion. Prohibition causes crime by creating a black market for drugs, the argument goes, so, legalise drugs to defeat organised crime. As an economist, I agree. But this is not only an economic argument. Legalisation would reduce crime profits, but it would also increase the damage to health, as drug availability leads to drug abuse.

Drug policy does not have to choose between either protecting health, through drug control, or ensuring law and order, by liberalising drugs. Society must protect both health and safety.

In a world of free drugs, the privileged rich can afford expensive treatment while poor people are condemned to a life of dependence. Now extrapolate the problem on to a global scale and imagine the impact of unregulated drug use in developing countries, with no prevention or treatment available. Legalised drugs would unleash an epidemic of addiction in the developing world.

Last but not least, there's the question of human rights. Around the world, millions of people caught taking drugs are sent to jail. In some countries, drug treatment amounts to the equivalent of torture. People are sentenced to death for drug-related offences. Although drugs kill, governments should not kill because of them. The prohibition versus legalisation debate must stop being ideological and look for the appropriate degree of controls. Drug control is not the task of governments alone: it is a society-wide responsibility. Are we ready to engage?

Frankly I find this whole article to be a giant pile of stupid. First of all he puts up the fallacy that all countries agree that drugs are right to be illegal when some countries legalise substances like cannabis or put a blind eye to casual usage.
Then he goes on to try and maintain that prohibition is a success while using a comparison of opium production today and 100 years ago.
He also includes the straw man that those of us who feel (at least some) drugs should be legalised are wanting to have an open unregulated market, and proceeds to destroy it by describing the situation we have currently but pretending to imagine it as some drug-fuelled dystopia.
He makes some good point, like pointing out the palliative values of opiates, but I feel that they are just there to cover his posterior in case he's brought to task.

Of course I may be wrong about the article (I'm not omniescent) and he may be making a subtle point about the pitfalls of decrimilisation. Please discuss.
 
...because the conventions' success in restraining both supply and demand of drugs is undeniable.
If you are willing to make a baldfaced lie like that, you probably also believe the first quote in my sig.

Drugs do harm to health, but they can also do good. Greater use of opiates for palliative care would overcome the socio-economic factors that deny a Nigerian suffering from Aids or a Mexican cancer patient the morphine offered to Italian or American counterparts. Yet such relief is not happening.
Some unexpected honesty tucked away in the midst of deceptive statistics. At least he admits that absurd drug laws are actually increasing the suffering of those who would otherwise be able to find some relief from their pain.

Next is the security question.
At least he shows signs of creativity. If the old lies no longer seem to work, conjure up some new ones based on fears over the Mexican drug wars which would almost completely disappear if more realistic drug laws were enacted.
 
If you are willing to make a baldfaced lie like that, you probably also believe the first quote in my sig.

For a horrible second I thought you were quoting me and not him.
 
What exactly makes this comparison invalid?

Well first of all, a 100 year comparison in the context of human culture isn't very useful. You're talking 2 or 3 generations of change. Thats a big difference, not all of it attributable to prohibition as I feel he is implying. Also Opium probably took a far larger share of the drugs market 100 years ago than it does today. The total number of drugs taken today could be far larger than 100 years ago even with a three fold decrease in opium production. Pharmaceutical production has come a long way in that time.
 
Anyone who believes that widespread legalization of currently illicit drugs will not increase addiction and corresponding health problems massively is chewing on a big pile of stupid.
 
Authoritarian makes authoritarian proclamation. Pigs stay grounded, hell remains balmy, the world spins on and on and on...
 
Finally someone to stand up to the sillyness of drug legalisation...
 
Well first of all, a 100 year comparison in the context of human culture isn't very useful. You're talking 2 or 3 generations of change. Thats a big difference, not all of it attributable to prohibition as I feel he is implying. Also Opium probably took a far larger share of the drugs market 100 years ago than it does today. The total number of drugs taken today could be far larger than 100 years ago even with a three fold decrease in opium production. Pharmaceutical production has come a long way in that time.
There are other factors as well.

Worldwide drug enforcement efforts really didn't become pervasive until Reagan's so-called "war on drugs" in the mid-80s. The UN commission which he apparently headed wasn't even formed until 1988. He claims in the same article that drug production has "stablized" or slightly declined in that time frame. He also fails to mention that opium production dropped to zero during the Taliban reign.

And back then, China and the Indochina area in general used to consume huge quantities of opium. Nowadays, people who traffic in even small amounts of hard drugs are typically executed. There are now 900,000 registered addicts in mainland China who no longer need to find illegal drugs. Opium use has become largely obsolete and supplanted by other derivatives.

If someone is preaching about the effectiveness of the "war on drugs", they are not being honest about the statistics they try to wave around. The experts themselves claim it has failed.
 
There are other factors as well.

Worldwide drug enforcement efforts really didn't become pervasive until Reagan's so-called "war on drugs" in the mid-80s. The UN commission which he apparently headed wasn't even formed until 1988. He claims in the same article that drug production has "stablized" or slightly declined in that time frame. He also fails to mention that opium production dropped to zero during the Taliban reign.

And back then, China and the Indochina area in general used to consume huge quantities of opium. Nowadays, people who traffic in even small amounts of hard drugs are typically executed. There are now 900,000 registered addicts in mainland China who no longer need to find illegal drugs. Opium use has become largely obsolete and supplanted by other derivatives.

If someone is preaching about the effectiveness of the "war on drugs", they are not being honest about the statistics they try to wave around. The experts themselves claim it has failed.

This too, I remember reading (but can't find backup unfortunately) an annonymous higher-up in the UK police saying that of their own rcokning they were seizing about 0.7% of the total shipment into the UK every year, and the UK is pretty much zero tolerance on drugs shipments.
@ Orange Seed why do you believe that ending prohibition for drugs will be any different from any other lifting of prohibition? At least if drugs were legal they would be regulated, taxed and proper treatment facilities would be put in place. Also with the right implementation the criminality involved currently could be destroyed.
 
Legalize the stuff that isn't that bad for you, focus the resources on the bad drugs like Meth and Heroin.
 
@ Orange Seed why do you believe that ending prohibition for drugs will be any different from any other lifting of prohibition? At least if drugs were legal they would be regulated, taxed and proper treatment facilities would be put in place. Also with the right implementation the criminality involved currently could be destroyed.

1. Treatment facilities are already in place. That would not change.
2. You will have to specify regulations that could be put in place before I can comment on their effect.
3. A vast amount of taxation will be required to make up for healthcare bills, petty crime increases, productivity falls and family break downs which all correspond to substance abuse.
4. Any effort to destroy criminality will come at the cost of tax revenue and regulation which both push the market into illegitimate hands.
 
He's right, I'm addicted to caffeine and ibuprofin. :(

Long term Ibuprofen has issues. Try to find a safer alternative. OTC doesn't mean 100% safe for everyone. :)


I believe caffeine has been exonerated of everything except dehydration.
 
Those who argue we should decriminalise the trade in narcotics are blind to the catastrophic consequenses

Because everyone knows what a catastrophe the USA was before drug wars

Why such resistance to abolishing the controls? In part, because the conventions' success in restraining both supply and demand of drugs is undeniable.

Success? Nixon's war on pot led to an increase in more concentrated and more easily hidden drugs like cocaine and heroin and that gave us the cocaine wars of the 70s and 80s.

Look first at production. Drug controls slashed global opium supply dramatically: in 2007, it was one-third the level of 1907.

That aint a logical argument, modern chemistry has since eaten into that demand.

What about recent trends? Over the last 10 years, world output of cocaine, amphetamines and ecstasy has stabilised, and in many instances dropped.

Gee, stability is success now? How many are "many" when talking about 3 drugs?

Cannabis output has declined since 2004.

Has it declined since Nixon's war on pot? Has anything declined? Opium, supposedly...

Since the mid-90s, opium production moved from the Golden Triangle to Afghanistan where it grew exponentially at first, but started to decline (since 2008).

maybe not...

My first point is factual: in the distant past as well as recently, production controls have had measurable results.

BS, traffickers just switch to other drugs and the last 4 decades shows the trend is toward more potency. :goodjob:

What about drug-use levels? There are 25 million addicts (daily use) in the world, 0.6% of the population. Ten times as many people (5% of the world's population) take drugs at least once a year. As these amounts are relatively small, statements such as "there are drugs everywhere" or "everybody takes drugs" are nonsense.

How many addicts were there in 1960? The rest of that is just a strawman

The drug numbers compare well with those of tobacco, a legal drug used by 30% of the world's population. Even more people consume alcohol. Tobacco causes 5 million deaths per year and alcohol 2 million, against the 200,000 killed by illicit drugs.

pointing out the hypocrisy on your own side of the debate aint gonna help win converts...

My second point is logical: in the absence of controls, it is not fanciful to imagine drug addiction, and related deaths, as high as those of tobacco and alcohol.

It certainly is fanciful, the USA had no drug war until the 20th century and drug use existed in ~comparable ratios to booze and tobacco which were then as now the most popular of the recreational drugs. Once again I'm left wondering why an "expert" makes chicken little predictions while ignoring the actual history.

My third point is intuitive: rich countries are addressing the drug problem, while poor countries lack resources to do so.

Yeah, we need more "revenue sharing".

With the building blocks of my reasoning in place (stability of the world drug supply; alcohol and tobacco hurt more than drugs; the divergent drug trends in poor and rich nations), I find it irrational to propose policies that would increase the public health damage caused by drugs by making them more freely available.

How about the "public health damage" caused by drug wars? Higher homicide rates, more property crime as addicts steal more to pay the inflated costs sought by prohibitionists, and more contaminated concoctions with little or no quality control and no way to settle disputes. The list of black market pathologies is extensive, the list of "successes" is a menagerie of propaganda designed to hide reality. Simple question: how have addiction rates gone down over the last 50 years? Oh, they haven't? They've gone up?

At the same time, drug controls are not working as they should. The resulting collateral damage is the platform upon which critics build the abolitionist argument.

But we wont go into this "collateral damage"

Let's look at health, security and human rights. Health must be at the centre of drug control, because drug addiction is a mix of genetic, personal and social factors: gene variants (predisposition), childhood (neglect), social conditions (poverty). The pharmacological effects of drugs on health are independent of their legal status. Drugs are not dangerous because they are illegal: they are illegal because they are dangerous to health.

That aint true, drugs are legal or illegal based mostly on how many voters are users... Thats why the author's claim that addiction rates for other drugs would ~match the rates for alcohol and tobacco is bogus - the other drugs didn't have enough political clout to remain legal to begin with, not enough users. If what the author says is true, there would have been just as many drug users (for each drug?) as booze and tobacco... Just wasn't the case... Oh, and some of these drugs became illegal because the prohibitionists employed racism to demonize users. It was William Randolph Hearst who popularized the term "marijuana" to link it with Mexicans and migrant workers.

In the past half-century, drug control rhetoric by governments has been right, but prevention and treatment programmes have lagged.

Are you kidding? This is your brain of drugs? They've been lying thru their teeth for decades and this clown thinks the prohibitionists have painted an accurate picture of drug use?

Priority was wrongly given to repression and criminalisation. Similarly, those in favour of legalisation have lost sight of health as the priority. They prioritise handing out condoms and clean needles, while addicts need prevention, treatment and reintegration, not only harm reduction gadgets.

That sounds like the harm reduction crowd, the clean needles and condoms is to slow the spread of disease - hardly ignoring health as "the" priority.

Next is the security question. Drugs pose a threat not only to individuals. Entire regions – think of Central America, the Caribbean and Africa – are caught in the crossfire of drug trafficking. In Mexico, a bloody drug war has erupted among crime groups fighting for the control of the US drug market. The legalisers' argument on security is striking, though it leads to the wrong conclusion. Prohibition causes crime by creating a black market for drugs, the argument goes, so, legalise drugs to defeat organised crime. As an economist, I agree. But this is not only an economic argument. Legalisation would reduce crime profits, but it would also increase the damage to health, as drug availability leads to drug abuse.

That assumes an increase in use unmatched by the benefits of reducing black market crime... Homicide rates (is that a health concern?) are much higher because of the drug war, and thats just the tip of the pathological iceberg. Within 20 years of Nixon's war on pot we saw the influx of crack cocaine, gang recruitment exploded and juvenile crime rates jumped as Reagan's drug war increased penalties for adults in the trade. Brilliant!
 
1. Treatment facilities are already in place. That would not change.

The best treatments are available in countries like Switzerland and the Netherlands. Why? They take a more lenient view of drug usage, and people are more open to help (on both sides).

2. You will have to specify regulations that could be put in place before I can comment on their effect.

Oh, I don't know, how about ingredient, age and dosage rules, mandatory inspections, and approved outlets only? Would those work for you. Because that's what we got with alcahol and, to a lesser extent, with tobacco.

3. A vast amount of taxation will be required to make up for healthcare bills, petty crime increases, productivity falls and family break downs which all correspond to substance abuse.

Have you actually heard of the fact that crimilisation of drugs (there is the specific example of Heroin in the UK) was the main reason why drugs became involved with criminality. Here is a table of the revenues from Tobacco in the UK over the last 20 years. So if tobacco can raise those kinds of revenues without major problems then so can taxes on drugs. As regards productivity and family problems, if we want to solve them then we would have to ban everything.

4. Any effort to destroy criminality will come at the cost of tax revenue and regulation which both push the market into illegitimate hands.

At the moment all of thedrugs trade is criminal, with it legalised and properly regulated how much will be criminal. Asssuming a figure of 10% and giving the authorities plenty of room to catch the 10% say they reduce the budget to 20% of current budget, thus saving the taxpayer 80% of the current budget. Plus you've got all the revenues coming on-line from regulation.
Your last bit about pushing the market into illegitimate hands? Sorry, I didn't realise we are taking the Ankh-Morpork approach to the drugs trade, I thought all the trade currently is illegitimate.

@Berzerker glad to see someone rip apart the article in the way I would like to have been able to do (reading it I think my IQ dropped 10 points). But seing as the mand career was bigging up the "War on Drugs" (about as useful a term IMO as the "War on Terror", but I'm not goingt to talk semantics) is going to want to be positive, I just thought a high-level person would be a lot more coherent in his arguement (if no more truthful).
 
The best treatments are available in countries like Switzerland and the Netherlands. Why? They take a more lenient view of drug usage, and people are more open to help (on both sides).

Still non-consequential. Start lobbying for treatment facilities. That has no logical relevance to legalization.

Oh, I don't know, how about ingredient, age and dosage rules, mandatory inspections, and approved outlets only? Would those work for you. Because that's what we got with alcahol and, to a lesser extent, with tobacco.

Ingredients/potency regulation-----vast black market increase
Age limitation------ineffective, will not decrease usership
Mandatory inspections-----nothing wrong here that I can forsee
Approved outlets------fine as well

Have you actually heard of the fact that crimilisation of drugs (there is the specific example of Heroin in the UK) was the main reason why drugs became involved with criminality. Here is a table of the revenues from Tobacco in the UK over the last 20 years. So if tobacco can raise those kinds of revenues without major problems then so can taxes on drugs.

You are failing to include the vast medicare costs that tobacco brings.

As regards productivity and family problems, if we want to solve them then we would have to ban everything.

What kind of cheap cop out is this. You don't ban everything. You ban what you can to avoid the most significant problems. There is no question that a cocaine addiction will likely make you far less productive, far more-so than a nicotine problem. Even non-addictive substances like alcohol cause significant social ills. So take behavioral problems akin to alcohol, make that substance more addictive than nicotine, and multiply that by 3 or 4 times because of the quantity of the drugs you plan to legalize.

What a healthy, happy and productive civilization you have there.

At the moment all of thedrugs trade is criminal, with it legalised and properly regulated how much will be criminal. Asssuming a figure of 10% and giving the authorities plenty of room to catch the 10% say they reduce the budget to 20% of current budget, thus saving the taxpayer 80% of the current budget. Plus you've got all the revenues coming on-line from regulation.
Your last bit about pushing the market into illegitimate hands? Sorry, I didn't realise we are taking the Ankh-Morpork approach to the drugs trade, I thought all the trade currently is illegitimate.

You are not getting it. We have a spectrum of regulation before us:
No regulation------------------>Banned

The closer you move to NR, the more severe social problems will become, but (organized) crime will presumably lessen. The closer you move to B, the less severe social ills become, but the market share under the control of criminals increases.

You won't be saving anyone any money. Tax revenues will lead to a net decrease because the majority of addicts will not keep stable jobs, they will become more reliant on welfare programs--which means that your consumption taxes will be paid for tax dollars that you've given back to addicts. This is a net loss of tax dollars. You have on top of this medical expenses.

further, the problem of family break downs is very severe. Children that go into the foster program, or have abusive parents are far more likely to have criminal records, to abuse substances, and have substantially lower incomes than their peers. A world of drug legalization will increase this pool of people absolutely, and likely substantially increase it. These lead, again, to lower government revenues and higher expenses.

Your plan leads to widespread despondency, unproductivity, coercion, and will not at all save anybody any money. It's a terrible plan. You have to lake a wider scope on the problem, rather than seeing it as purely an issue of crime.
 
You are failing to include the vast medicare costs that tobacco brings.

I'm willing to bet the costs are actually lower in the UK than the revenue from tobacco.

You ban what you can to avoid the most significant problems.

Fine then as tobacco and alcahol are by far the most significant causes ban them.


The closer you move to NR, the more severe social problems will become, but (organized) crime will presumably lessen. The closer you move to B, the less severe social ills become, but the market share under the control of criminals increases.

You won't be saving anyone any money. Tax revenues will lead to a net decrease because the majority of addicts will not keep stable jobs, they will become more reliant on welfare programs--which means that your consumption taxes will be paid for tax dollars that you've given back to addicts. This is a net loss of tax dollars. You have on top of this medical expenses.

further, the problem of family break downs is very severe. Children that go into the foster program, or have abusive parents are far more likely to have criminal records, to abuse substances, and have substantially lower incomes than their peers. A world of drug legalization will increase this pool of people absolutely, and likely substantially increase it. These lead, again, to lower government revenues and higher expenses.

Your plan leads to widespread despondency, unproductivity, coercion, and will not at all save anybody any money. It's a terrible plan. You have to lake a wider scope on the problem, rather than seeing it as purely an issue of crime.

Every single prohibition experience before now shows up the opposite of your arguement. I fail to see how klegalising drugs will be any different.
The cost of the already failed war on drugs is already astronomical in terms of money, lives and social breakdown. I cannot see how measures which will lower those costs and raises extra revenue streams will make the situation worse.
 
Really bro, I was going to reply but then I read this little gem and realized it really isn't worth anyone's time to respond to someone as ignorant as yourself.

Orange Seeds said:
Even non-addictive substances like alcohol cause significant social ills.

Non-addictive? Alcohol? How could anyone possibly EVER use the word "Non-addictive" to describe Alcohol. It doesn't make sense to me. You'd have to be one of the most ignorant people in the world to say something like that, when there is blatant evidence which is wide-accepted stating that Alcohol is one of the most addictive substances in the world.

Eh, I lied. I'll reply anyway.

What kind of cheap cop out is this. You don't ban everything. You ban what you can to avoid the most significant problems. There is no question that a cocaine addiction will likely make you far less productive, far more-so than a nicotine problem. Even non-addictive substances like alcohol cause significant social ills. So take behavioral problems akin to alcohol, make that substance more addictive than nicotine, and multiply that by 3 or 4 times because of the quantity of the drugs you plan to legalize.

A nicotine addiction will make you less productive than a cocaine addiction. I've never been addicted to either substance, though I have used both substances thoroughly, so I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about. When doing cocaine, you'll want to do more and be more productive. Cocaine is an upper and a stimulant - there really is no other combination which would make you want to do more. There's a reason why people take Adderall to focus better when writing essays or doing exams, because they do better while on it. Cocaine is more euphoric than Adderall, but they're both very speedy, and both make you focus. Nicotine on the other hand you have to take a break for 10 minutes every hour to have a smoke, greatly decreasing production. Cocaine you just pull out your baggie, chop, then snort your line, which would take you max 2 minutes.

Ingredients/potency regulation-----vast black market increase
Age limitation------ineffective, will not decrease usership
Mandatory inspections-----nothing wrong here that I can forsee
Approved outlets------fine as well

Ingredients/potency is not some sort of marketing ploy for a black market increase. If a substance is controlled, it's not like you could buy it regulated at 85% potency or at 95% potency off the black market. If a substance is controlled, it is under the belief that they'd be selling pharm-grade 95+% potency drugs (like they currently do with most opiates/benzos) so that people know what they're buying what they actually came to buy, not a product cut to hell.

Age limitations don't make a difference? Do you see 14 year olds out gambling? No, because there's an age limitation. Do you see 15 year olds out drinking at bars? No, because there's an age limitation. I understand there's always a way to get "around the system", but I can tell you first-hand that when I was 15/16 and first starting to experiment with Alcohol there were a couple times we couldn't drink when we planned on it because we couldn't get Alcohol due to the age limitation.

The closer you move to NR, the more severe social problems will become, but (organized) crime will presumably lessen. The closer you move to B, the less severe social ills become, but the market share under the control of criminals increases.

Again, I'm sitting here in dis-belief. Less social ills if something is moved closer to banned? For whom are we talking about? The holier-than-thou cigarette smokers who are clutching their whiskeys, or the people who have to go to court and pay 4 grand in lawyer fees due to being caught with 8 grams of marijuana?

Not to mention the fact that in America they have privately-owned prisons who make more money the more people they have in prison. Obviously you have to give the inmates meals and the such (and private prisons are better than state pens) but the prisons are legally allowed to use the inmates as free labour. Not only is it free labour, but it's generally state-financed road projects which the state pays the private prison owners to build.

So lets see what we're talking about here. Throwing people in jail for petty crimes, then forcing them to build roads and the such which the prisons are making money off of (which is being paid for by the government). Damn that sounds like some Nazi-Germany deathcamp style fascism.
 
Fine then as tobacco and alcahol are by far the most significant causes ban them.

So you've come around. You agree that the severity of substance abuse is increased by legalization.

Every single prohibition experience before now shows up the opposite of your arguement. I fail to see how klegalising drugs will be any different.
The cost of the already failed war on drugs is already astronomical in terms of money, lives and social breakdown. I cannot see how measures which will lower those costs and raises extra revenue streams will make the situation worse.

The opposite you say? Would you like to illustrate this point? Are you saying that there isn't a black market for even highly unregulated cigarettes?

Really bro, I was going to reply but then I read this little gem and realized it really isn't worth anyone's time to respond to someone as ignorant as yourself.

This seems to be a common remark. Let's see if you can learn me, bro.

Non-addictive? Alcohol? How could anyone possibly EVER use the word "Non-addictive" to describe Alcohol. It doesn't make sense to me. You'd have to be one of the most ignorant people in the world to say something like that, when there is blatant evidence which is wide-accepted stating that Alcohol is one of the most addictive substances in the world.

Gambling and sex are "addictive." However this isn't the addiction I'm talking about. In strict terms I'm talking about substances that have severe and constant withdrawal symptoms which alcohol, for the most part, lacks.

Quote some evidence.

A nicotine addiction will make you less productive than a cocaine addiction. I've never been addicted to either substance, though I have used both substances thoroughly, so I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about. When doing cocaine, you'll want to do more and be more productive. Cocaine is an upper and a stimulant - there really is no other combination which would make you want to do more. There's a reason why people take Adderall to focus better when writing essays or doing exams, because they do better while on it. Cocaine is more euphoric than Adderall, but they're both very speedy, and both make you focus. Nicotine on the other hand you have to take a break for 10 minutes every hour to have a smoke, greatly decreasing production. Cocaine you just pull out your baggie, chop, then snort your line, which would take you max 2 minutes.

Perhaps, I picked a bad example, but is it actually the case that consuming cocaine will result in a performance boost when I write my next term paper? This surprises me.

Ingredients/potency is not some sort of marketing ploy for a black market increase. If a substance is controlled, it's not like you could buy it regulated at 85% potency or at 95% potency off the black market. If a substance is controlled, it is under the belief that they'd be selling pharm-grade 95+% potency drugs (like they currently do with most opiates/benzos) so that people know what they're buying what they actually came to buy, not a product cut to hell.

That might be your model of regulation. It does not have to be the case and it fits my argument just the same. If 95% potency drugs are freely available, then social ills increase correspondingly. Assuming that normal behavior is changed in direct correspondence to potency increases.

Age limitations don't make a difference? Do you see 14 year olds out gambling? No, because there's an age limitation. Do you see 15 year olds out drinking at bars? No, because there's an age limitation. I understand there's always a way to get "around the system", but I can tell you first-hand that when I was 15/16 and first starting to experiment with Alcohol there were a couple times we couldn't drink when we planned on it because we couldn't get Alcohol due to the age limitation.

Yes 14 year olds gamble and drink all the time. Don't be obtuse. Will an age restriction stop people from accessing the substance? Sometimes. But when we're talking about highly addictive substances that 'sometime' is not going to stop an addiction. One or two occasions will allow for the development of an addiction. Which is the real plague we are trying to avoid.

Not to mention the fact that in America they have privately-owned prisons who make more money the more people they have in prison. Obviously you have to give the inmates meals and the such (and private prisons are better than state pens) but the prisons are legally allowed to use the inmates as free labour. Not only is it free labour, but it's generally state-financed road projects which the state pays the private prison owners to build.

Yes that's terrible, go lobby your government to stop allowing for private prison ownership. Heck you could make a thread about it. What relevance it has here I'm not sure.

So lets see what we're talking about here. Throwing people in jail for petty crimes, then forcing them to build roads and the such which the prisons are making money off of (which is being paid for by the government). Damn that sounds like some Nazi-Germany deathcamp style fascism.

That's some sexy argumentation. Yesterday I ate a child and today I'm going to dump gasoline on a nest of eagles. I'm really a terrible man. Now that we've established that, can we get back to what we were talking about.
 
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