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Forrested hill - Mine or Lumber mill?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pouakai, Oct 12, 2011.

  1. Pouakai

    Pouakai It belongs in a museum. Moderator

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    Just wanted to see what most people do - if you have a hill with a forest on it, do you build a mine, removing the forest, or do you build a lumber mill?
     
  2. blasto

    blasto Prince

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    My weak-azz non-strategic approach would be to pick whatever was the suggested build if there was one.. and then I usually opt for +production by default
     
  3. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Well a Mine will get a +1 with Chemistry, a Lumbermill will have to wait until Scientific Theory...
    Also a Mine gives you the bonus from cutting the forest... so unless you are really short on food, a Mine is probably better
    [Plus mines give instant access to any newly discovered resources in the tile...Iron, Coal, Aluminum, Uranium]
     
  4. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Here's what I do:
    If on a resource, but that resource, otherwise:

    Fresh water: Farm

    No fresh water: Lumber Mill.

    Basically I like to get some food so the city can continue to grow.

    Plus with the right social policies combined with Statue of Liberty it may be better to work a specialist than a mined hill.

     
  5. vexing

    vexing knows

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    mine > lumbermill, always. the forest chop should be timed to provide something useful (like earlier NC). only exception is iroquois.
     
  6. Thyrwyn

    Thyrwyn Guardian at the Gate

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    Fresh water - farm;
    Else - mine; unless puppet, in which case - trading post.

    I tend to play wide empires and try to stunt my cities when they are working as many worthwhile tiles as they reasonably can (and running as many scientists as they can).
     
  7. turtlefang

    turtlefang Warlord

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    Nearly always mine over a lumbermill. I might reconsider if I was playing the Iroquois but I haven't played them in a long time. Other choices would include a farm if I had a lot of hills for that city and it had fresh water. Or if I was playing the Inca and had enough production hexes.
     
  8. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    This. Worse, if i have to choose between a forest or nothing else, i prefer nothing else. Early hammers from chopped forests are very precious. I chop every forest outside territory too.

    For sure, i will settle in a place where the city will have enough hammer output even if i chop everything around(i may keep some for later criticical buildings if a lot of them). The only time i put lumbermills is when i have to cut some build turns for a science or cultural victory. I buy tiles and put lumbermills in a hurry.
     
  9. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

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    Chopping forests early is an essential part of my strategy. Early game, your production is low and you don't usually have the cash to buy things. A well-timed chop, which does take a bit of micro, is the only way to accelerate builds until your economy is up and running. Mining is usually one of the first four techs I research (Construction is usually in the second or third wave) so if I get the hammers from chopping plus the modest production bump from a mine then I'm happy.
    If you like lumber mills ( I do) you can usually build them once your borders expand.
    Getting there firstest with the mostest (To misquote General Nathan Bedford Forrest) in the early game will positively affect the rest of your game.
     
  10. Resonance

    Resonance Chieftain

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    Chopping, then mine, as everybody else said. Even riverside, farming a hill is a bad compromise that slows you down and lumber mill is just a more production weighted compromise.

    Aside from the benefit of acceleration through chopping that everybody else mentioned there is one other aspect that should make clear why this compromise is disadvantageous.

    Your happiness limits the total population you can have, and therefore you should make the most out of each :c5citizen:. Basically, what I am saying is that you grow not for growths sake, but for a reason.
    That reason is to get more :c5production: or :c5gold: out of it. You should aim for the most :c5production: you can get and you should aim to work these tiles asap.

    Therefore the total number of :c5production: tiles is more or less the limit of useful tiles of your city as a means to generate a victory condition. And for most city locations, it is beneficial to optimize the amount of :c5production: you can generate from improvements, since those tiles are generally limited.
    :c5food: tiles are useful only as support for production capability. Consequently, any food generation should be put on tiles like grassland and plains that will not yield more than one :c5production: or even zero :c5production:. And the only reason to work these tiles is to get the max :c5production: capability.

    Let me illustrate a simplified example. Suppose your city has only two production tiles: riverside forested hills.
    you can make that 4:c5food:/4:c5production:/2:c5gold:, 2:c5food:/ 6:c5production:/2:c5gold: or 0:c5food:/8 :c5production:/2:c5gold:.
    Why would you want just 4 :c5production: when you could get 8? There are no more production tiles to grow into. So what will be the benefit to grow your city when both hills are worked? The city will generate more stuff of your choice with more hammers.

    There are exceptions of course depending on the city location, but usually you are not :c5food: limited but :c5production: limited in the tiles a city can work.
     
  11. lilnev

    lilnev King

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    Farming a riverside hill can be useful after CS but before Chem. During that stretch, farms are the only +2 improvement available, and hills still offer hammers over food. Two farmed hills beats one farmed grassland plus one mined hill. Post-Chem, or when Maritimes and happiness limits reduce the marginal value of food, then mines offer the most hammers. Lumbermilling a hill (except as Iriquois) is very rare.
     
  12. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    Dead on. The real choice is farm vs. mine on a fresh water tile. If you have a city with severe :c5food: problems, it often makes sense to chop and farm rather than chop and mine. But if the city can grow into its tiles at a reasonable pace, you should mine.
     
  13. Lokos451

    Lokos451 Chieftain

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    I usually farm these, but from examining the math you posted on the aqueducts thread, it seems my estimation of the value of long term growth was over-assumed. So, to that point, what do you regard 'reasonable growth' to be? I'd very much appreciate a more in depth response to it if you could.
     
  14. Rpger29

    Rpger29 Prince

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    This kind of begs the question: do lumber mills need some other bonus to be viable for non-Iroquois players?
     
  15. jega001

    jega001 Chieftain

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    Personally I don't think so. Not considering forested tiles on hills as the mine v. farm was already well put by vexing and martin, but considering a generic flatland with forests, adding an additional production would make them 4 :c5production: and 1 :c5food: so it would be even better then a mine in the end game, and even 3 hammers 1 food though Renaissance would be over powered for their time. Adding a gold would make them a tad over powered as well for they would be possibly the best non resource tile and the Iroquois would exploit this like no other. I'd leave lumber mills as they are currently. Though this is just me.
     
  16. elprofesor

    elprofesor Pluri-editing poster

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    Since chopping gives an inmediate advantage, should forest/lumbermills be buffed (and I'm not saying they should, I'm no pro), the buff should come late in the game, so that forests grant either an inmediate bonus (chop) or a late-game advantage (some extra happiness, as in Civ 4, for example; or get an extra food/hammer/gold with scientific theory).
     
  17. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    How about +2 science from Public Schools? [little kid field trips]
     
  18. Glassmage

    Glassmage The Desert Flame

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    and +1 happiness (nature relaxes people)
     
  19. jega001

    jega001 Chieftain

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    You have planted forests all over your empire, you have succeeded at the hippie victory condition.
     
  20. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

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    I'm a bit nostalgic for the CiIV late game National Park IIRC, the city with the NP got a nice Science boost and one Specialist for each forest square that was a park.
     

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