Fort spamming

[Andvare]

So, after I noticed that the Clans Boss units can create forts like great commanders, I decided to try to paint the world orange.
And while the clans fort commanders suck donkey balls, they aren't attacked by anything other than the demons, which is not really that much of a threat (skeletons are weak, and the stronger units are rare).
This made it really easy to block off any opponent, while still not growing faster than necessary, so not to lose the peace with the barbs.
Easy win. Too easy.

So, on to the Khazads.
I got a lucky great commander early on with them, and went on to do the same thing with my commanders here, as I did with the Clan. As the Khazad commanders absolutely rock, this was a fantastic strategy, as I got lots of land, blocked off the AI and build a strong defence without producing anything and with no maintenance.

I also tried this with the Durals, now this is another matter entirely, as their fort commanders are so pathetic that they can stop a wet paper bag. They stopped nothing, and got overrun by the barbs so quickly I couldn't keep up with my army.


In the name of balance, I feel that this should be nerfed. Either the forts a commander can build should be limited (my preferred solution), or it should take longer.
In any case, the Clan's Boss units should really not have this ability, that is crazy strong.

Remember, I'm not talking about workers ability to build forts, because they cost plenty of and take their time build them.

 

[CarnivalBizarre]

Forts in history have been really really expensive to upkeep. One fort should cost 5 gold per turn or so. That would kill any fort spamming strategies...

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I don't see why.
Forts are just fine as they are.

Different civs have different uses for forts and that is simply so.
And if someone is stupid enough to let you wall him off with forts without going after your workers than he has just got what's coming to him anyway.

 

[jrc]

Combine the Clan fort-spamming with upgrading them to arcane colleges, beelining Knowledge of the Ether and you got a really interesting Clan game for the midgame .

I do agree though, that the general fort-spamming (by either civ) is a bit OP and cheesy since the AI don't handle forts that well.

 

[Niveras]

Forts in history have been really really expensive to upkeep. One fort should cost 5 gold per turn or so. That would kill any fort spamming strategies...

Only if they are manned, and in my opinion, forts should not be manned by default.

I think, instead of generating a new (sometimes powerful, sometimes weak depending on civ) unit when the fort is created, it is created empty. It may still cost a small upkeep - say only 1/turn, to represent repairs to the masonry and general maintenance, but that could just as easily be abstracted away. While manning the fort, one generic unit can be upgraded to a fort commander, costing extra maintenance but gaining access to some new promotions (mostly related to ranged/siege attacks) and generally maintaining its original stats. The unitype and kind of promotions could be dependent on the civ - Khazad would have increased defense strength (or defense%, or first attacks, see below) and some siege attacks, ljos and austrin would have 100% max damage/low-to-no-collateral ranged attacks, sheaim and... that... other... casting civ... would have whatever's flavorful there. Basically the same sort of flavor they have now, though a little more pronounced in flavor and less variation in defense strength (because now the unit being used to command the fort decides strength stats). If possible the fort commander promotions should be cleared if the unit chooses to no longer command the fort, as otherwise you have fort commander abilities being used in attacks.

Possibly in addition - because part of the fort spam strategy is simply denying access to territory via culture and lack of open borders - forts would only have the culture of the building civ on their own tile when they are not manned.

Difficulty: AI. How does an AI decide whether it wants to man a fort full time - perhaps if there is a resource in the fort's culture radius (whether current or future?) or only use it when an invader is incoming? To decide what promotions to take?

As an aside, dwarf mines would no longer generate commanders, but a unit can be used to command a dwarf mine with similar promotions. Incidentally and if possible, dwarf mine commanders could get first attacks to represent the tendency for dwarves to build elaborate overkill traps. Incidentally, I had a couple items for random events on dwarf mines/fortresses (in reference to that game), but I have absolutely no idea where to start with respect to creating a module for them.

 

[Tsathoggua]

I don't see why.
Forts are just fine as they are.

Different civs have different uses for forts and that is simply so.

Played by a human player, every civ can abuse forts in exactly the same way. Maybe the AI is coded to use forts differently depending on civ, but the problem with fort spam doesn't come from there.

And if someone is stupid enough to let you wall him off with forts without going after your workers than he has just got what's coming to him anyway.

Unless the devs can teach the AI to aggressively attack forts (or to engage in equally aggressive fort spam, calculating the future cultural influence of every fort it places as well as the regions enclosed thereby) then this argument has no merit. I mean, forts are something you can build in an easy 3 turns right outside an enemy city you've besieged. There *has* to be a drawback to an ability so flexible and useful as fort-building, at least as long as Great Commanders can build them.

Forts having upkeep is, frankly, not a terrible idea. 5 gold/turn is maybe a bit much, though -- that's what Mechanos' mobile fortresses cost, and they are an endgame concept (they are also ridiculously powerful though, and maybe 5g/turn is too cheap...). A more extreme idea is perhaps to make the Great Commanders either unable to build forts, or only able to do so a finite number of times. Early-game GCs are still a huge leg up and often a guaranteed win in the long run, and I'm of the mind that nothing in the nature of a random event (GC spawn from either combat or lairs) should so unbalance the game in favor of an intelligent player.

 

[Meldon]

Purple, he's not talking about sending in workers to build a wall of forts, he's talking about the Clan Boss' and Great Commanders abilities to spawn forts. IMO, Boss' should not be able to spawn forts, and GC fort spam could be limited by generating the fort using up the Recruiter promotion.

 

[Valkrionn]

So, after I noticed that the Clans Boss units can create forts like great commanders, I decided to try to paint the world orange.
And while the clans fort commanders suck donkey balls, they aren't attacked by anything other than the demons, which is not really that much of a threat (skeletons are weak, and the stronger units are rare).
This made it really easy to block off any opponent, while still not growing faster than necessary, so not to lose the peace with the barbs.
Easy win. Too easy.

So, on to the Khazads.
I got a lucky great commander early on with them, and went on to do the same thing with my commanders here, as I did with the Clan. As the Khazad commanders absolutely rock, this was a fantastic strategy, as I got lots of land, blocked off the AI and build a strong defence without producing anything and with no maintenance.

I also tried this with the Durals, now this is another matter entirely, as their fort commanders are so pathetic that they can stop a wet paper bag. They stopped nothing, and got overrun by the barbs so quickly I couldn't keep up with my army.


In the name of balance, I feel that this should be nerfed. Either the forts a commander can build should be limited (my preferred solution), or it should take longer.
In any case, the Clan's Boss units should really not have this ability, that is crazy strong.

Remember, I'm not talking about workers ability to build forts, because they cost plenty of and take their time build them.

I completely agree, it needs to be limited. My plan was to allow one fort to be built per level of the commander (and it will be limited to Great Commanders!). Will also give Fort Commanders upkeep.

Only if they are manned, and in my opinion, forts should not be manned by default.

I think, instead of generating a new (sometimes powerful, sometimes weak depending on civ) unit when the fort is created, it is created empty. It may still cost a small upkeep - say only 1/turn, to represent repairs to the masonry and general maintenance, but that could just as easily be abstracted away. While manning the fort, one generic unit can be upgraded to a fort commander, costing extra maintenance but gaining access to some new promotions (mostly related to ranged/siege attacks) and generally maintaining its original stats. The unitype and kind of promotions could be dependent on the civ - Khazad would have increased defense strength (or defense%, or first attacks, see below) and some siege attacks, ljos and austrin would have 100% max damage/low-to-no-collateral ranged attacks, sheaim and... that... other... casting civ... would have whatever's flavorful there. Basically the same sort of flavor they have now, though a little more pronounced in flavor and less variation in defense strength (because now the unit being used to command the fort decides strength stats). If possible the fort commander promotions should be cleared if the unit chooses to no longer command the fort, as otherwise you have fort commander abilities being used in attacks.

Possibly in addition - because part of the fort spam strategy is simply denying access to territory via culture and lack of open borders - forts would only have the culture of the building civ on their own tile when they are not manned.

Difficulty: AI. How does an AI decide whether it wants to man a fort full time - perhaps if there is a resource in the fort's culture radius (whether current or future?) or only use it when an invader is incoming? To decide what promotions to take?

As an aside, dwarf mines would no longer generate commanders, but a unit can be used to command a dwarf mine with similar promotions. Incidentally and if possible, dwarf mine commanders could get first attacks to represent the tendency for dwarves to build elaborate overkill traps. Incidentally, I had a couple items for random events on dwarf mines/fortresses (in reference to that game), but I have absolutely no idea where to start with respect to creating a module for them.

No. Flat out no. You even listed the reason why not: The AI. Currently, the AI understands to claim forts, it knows where to build forts, and can handle the system well. I'm not doing anything that breaks that.

For another thing, I like the current system, and the ability to add UU's for different civilizations. It adds a lot of uniqueness, IMO, and I would like for every civ to have a unique Fort Commander.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I completely agree, it needs to be limited. My plan was to allow one fort to be built per level of the commander (and it will be limited to Great Commanders!). Will also give Fort Commanders upkeep.

But that flat out destroys any use of them. I play aggressively yet I newer get more than 3-4 Great Commanders in a game.

If you make forts such a limited commodity than how are people supposed to claim resources and do other stuff like block choke points?


I mean, you will be reducing forts to a novelty thing you almost newer build instead of a normal improvement.

 

[Valkrionn]

But that flat out destroys any use of them. I play aggressively yet I newer get more than 3-4 Great Commanders in a game.

If you make forts such a limited commodity than how are people supposed to claim resources and do other stuff like block choke points?


I mean, you will be reducing forts to a novelty thing you almost newer build instead of a normal improvement.

.......You can build them with workers?

We are discussing only the spell available to Commanders which allows them to be built in neutral/enemy territory. Workers are able to build them in friendly/neutral territory. Completely separate; Changes to the one method will not affect the other.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Oh, my mistake than.

I thought that the OP was complaining about spamming forts in one's own territory.
Yea, if you don't change that I don't have any input on the GC thing.

 

[Valkrionn]

Okay, went ahead and made a few changes, so I wouldn't forget them.

1. Fort Commanders are no longer free, but cost 3 support (standard, +2 extra)
2. Fort Commanders are leashed to their tiles.
   1. Avoids issues from both Domain_Immobile and 0 move solutions.
3. Field Fortifications requires Recruiter (so you have Outpost, Recruit, or Field Fortifications), and can be cast once per unit level.

 

[Luckmann]

Then could you please add the function to pillage a fort as a fort commander? There are many ways to more or less randomly get forts and such during exploration, and it could add up fairly rapidly.

 

[Valkrionn]

....Why would you pillage the fort? Why not simply delete the fort commander, as it is the unit that costs extra maintenance?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Does this upkeep extend to fort commanders within your own lands?

 

[odalrick]

Does this upkeep extend to fort commanders within your own lands?

It only applies to Fort commander in your own lands; Fort Commanders in enemy lands are enemies.

 

[Valkrionn]

With the way the mechanic works, fort commanders are always within your lands. So yes.

Fort Commanders require a higher upkeep. If you are building the fort deep in your own territory for some reason or another, delete the commander. But you really shouldn't be doing that.

 

[Elm]

Will the Kuriotates also have a higher upkeep for fort commanders? I think in my last game using them, I only used settlements if I needed culture to expand to more than 9 tiles.

 

[Valkrionn]

Currently yes. Can easily change that, not sure I should however.

 

[Andvare]

Oh, my mistake than.

I thought that the OP was complaining about spamming forts in one's own territory.
Yea, if you don't change that I don't have any input on the GC thing.

Remember, I'm not talking about workers ability to build forts, because they cost plenty of and take their time build them.

No, workers building forts were never the problem.

I completely agree, it needs to be limited. My plan was to allow one fort to be built per level of the commander (and it will be limited to Great Commanders!). Will also give Fort Commanders upkeep.

For another thing, I like the current system, and the ability to add UU's for different civilizations. It adds a lot of uniqueness, IMO, and I would like for every civ to have a unique Fort Commander.

I do worry that the commander will be too expensive (AI), as a catapult+axeman can do the same job. But seeing as they have only a handful, that is probably not a problem.