1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Fortress Europe play questions

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario League' started by Konig15, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    I'm playing Fortress Europe and trying to give an honest crack at the scenario as designed.

    The first question is:
    The documentation seems to suggest that the turn schedule is one turn = one week, but it seems this was changed to one turn = two weeks. Is this correct? Also, documents mention an airlift unit but I can't find it in the rules. Does it appear in later rule sets? Cause the batch files don't work on Windows 10, meaning I can only manually swap the winter and summer months gif and txt. files. Only Winter and Summer rules are accessible.

    I managed to sake Sitre, a city in North Africa which led to the Torch event and swamping of MASSIVE armies in North Africa.

    Next turn I got a notice to turn the batch to option 5, which is late 1943. Only I'd done ahistorical to this point was seized control of Norway. According to the Events, it's September 1942, so I'm a little ahead, but not THAT far ahead.

    And the crux of it all:
    How on earth do you do the battle of the Atlantic without air stacking? It IS cheese, but the U-boats spawn in such numbers from every direction they WILL find your convoys in 1941 and 42. Even with Cosmic 2 and no stack kills, not only did I lose EVERY SINGLE Lend-Lease shipment, I tried to tank the Lend-Lease with capital ships, which I think was the historical strategy and lost two carriers and six battleships in five turns.

    Right now it seems it's either cheese or nothing. The U-boats are not a pest or only dangerous in large numbers, they kill everything up to heavy cruisers in one attack, which is fine, but then there's five or six more homing in on your position. Without air stacking, it's TPK, every time, every turn.

    Any advice for a second run would be appreciated, Also a general chain of techs to go after would be really helpful too. Paratroopers would be stupid useful in North Africa if only I could get some there to be the tip of the spear.
     
  2. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,514
    Location:
    in the frozen north
    Good questions Konig15. I don't know if McMonkey is going to be active on the forums to answer your questions, given his recent post. I hope so.

    I also had difficulty with the Atlantic theatre in the game. I do think it's a weak point in an otherwise brilliant scenario. The compressed scale of the Atlantic and the randomness of the U-boats make it somewhat frustrating. The problem with air stacking is that it negates the U-boat menace almost completely. They should be able to do considerable damage in 1941 and 42, but appropriate strategies and solid play should allow the British to survive and to go over to the offensive in 1943 and 44. I don't know the answer, I'm afraid. Ideas?
     
    Konig15 likes this.
  3. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,493
    I may not be able to do it tonight, but I can help you get the batch file working for windows 10 and show you how I did it no later than tomorrow.
     
  4. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    1,514
    Location:
    in the frozen north
    Sorry, what?
     
  5. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2001
    Messages:
    28,763
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Innsmouth
    I think he may have posted in the wrong thread.
     
  6. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,493
    You guys are reading too late at night/early in the morning :D

    @Konig15

    You can edit batch files in notepad by right clicking on them and opening it in notepad. The batch file in Fortress Europe starts like this:

    Spoiler :

    Code:
    @echo off
    cls
    echo.
    echo         FORTRESS EUROPE 
    echo.
    echo Please choose from the options below:
    echo.
    echo 1. Load Winter files 1941
    echo 2. Load Summer files 1942
    echo 3. Load Winter files 1942
    echo 4. Load Summer files 1943
    echo 5. Load Winter files 1943
    echo 6. Load Summer files 1944
    echo 7. Load Winter files 1944
    echo 8. Load Summer files 1945
    echo 9. Load Winter files 1945
    echo X. Exit without Loading
    echo.
    choice /c:123456789X Enter your selection please:
    
    if errorlevel 10 goto done
    if errorlevel 9 goto Winter45
    if errorlevel 8 goto Summer45
    if errorlevel 7 goto Winter44
    if errorlevel 6 goto Summer44
    if errorlevel 5 goto Winter43
    if errorlevel 4 goto Summer43
    if errorlevel 3 goto Winter42
    if errorlevel 2 goto Summer42
    if errorlevel 1 goto Winter41
    
    
    :Winter41
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1941
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS41WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Summer42
    echo.
    echo Summer files 1942
    copy TERRAIN1SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESSUMMER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS42SUMMER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Winter42
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1942
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS42WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Summer43
    echo.
    echo Summer files 1943
    copy TERRAIN1SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESSUMMER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS43SUMMER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Winter43
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1943
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS43WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Summer44
    echo.
    echo Summer files 1944
    copy TERRAIN1SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESSUMMER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS44SUMMER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Winter44
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1944
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS44WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Summer45
    echo.
    echo Summer files 1945
    copy TERRAIN1SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESSUMMER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS45SUMMER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Winter45
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1945
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS45WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :done
    echo.
    pause
    exit
    quit
    


    What you want is this:

    Spoiler :

    Code:
    @echo off
    cls
    echo.
    echo         FORTRESS EUROPE 
    echo.
    echo Please choose from the options below:
    echo.
    echo 1. Load Winter files 1941
    echo 2. Load Summer files 1942
    echo 3. Load Winter files 1942
    echo 4. Load Summer files 1943
    echo 5. Load Winter files 1943
    echo 6. Load Summer files 1944
    echo 7. Load Winter files 1944
    echo 8. Load Summer files 1945
    echo 9. Load Winter files 1945
    echo X. Exit without Loading
    echo.
    
    if "%OS%"=="Windows_NT" goto winxp
    
    choice /c:123456789X Enter your selection please:
    
    
    
    
    if errorlevel 6 goto Summer44
    if errorlevel 5 goto Winter43
    if errorlevel 4 goto Summer43
    if errorlevel 3 goto Winter42
    if errorlevel 2 goto Summer42
    if errorlevel 1 goto Winter41
    
    :winxp
    set /P choice=Type a number (1-3) and hit Enter: 
    if %choice%==1 goto Winter41
    if %choice%==2 goto Summer42
    if %choice%==3 goto Winter42
    if %choice%==4 goto Summer43
    if %choice%==5 goto Winter43
    if %choice%==6 goto Summer44
    if %choice%==7 goto Winter44
    if %choice%==8 goto Summer45
    if %choice%==9 goto Winter45
    if %choice%==10 goto done
    goto winxp
    
    :Winter41
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1941
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS41WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Summer42
    echo.
    echo Summer files 1942
    copy TERRAIN1SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESSUMMER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS42SUMMER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Winter42
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1942
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS42WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Summer43
    echo.
    echo Summer files 1943
    copy TERRAIN1SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESSUMMER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS43SUMMER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Winter43
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1943
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS43WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Summer44
    echo.
    echo Summer files 1944
    copy TERRAIN1SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESSUMMER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS44SUMMER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Winter44
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1944
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS44WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Summer45
    echo.
    echo Summer files 1945
    copy TERRAIN1SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2SUMMER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESSUMMER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS45SUMMER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :Winter45
    echo.
    echo Winter files 1945
    @echo off
    copy TERRAIN1WINTER.bmp TERRAIN1.bmp
    copy TERRAIN2WINTER.bmp TERRAIN2.bmp
    copy RULESWINTER.txt Rules.txt
    copy UNITS45WINTER.bmp UNITS.bmp
    goto done
    
    :done
    echo.
    pause
    exit
    quit
    


    You can fix these batch files by adding if "%OS%"=="Windows_NT" goto winxp underneath the "echoes:"

    echo Please choose from the options below:
    echo.
    echo 1. Load Winter files 1941
    echo 2. Load Summer files 1942
    ...
    echo.

    and then adding this:

    :winxp
    set /P choice=Type a number (1-3) and hit Enter:
    if %choice%==1 goto Winter41
    if %choice%==2 goto Summer42
    if %choice%==3 goto Winter42
    if %choice%==4 goto Summer43
    if %choice%==5 goto Winter43
    if %choice%==6 goto Summer44
    if %choice%==7 goto Winter44
    if %choice%==8 goto Summer45
    if %choice%==9 goto Winter45
    if %choice%==10 goto done
    goto winxp


    below the error levels:

    if errorlevel 10 goto done
    if errorlevel 9 goto Winter45
    if errorlevel 8 goto Summer45
    if errorlevel 7 goto Winter44
    ...
     
    Konig15 likes this.
  7. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    @JPetroski

    It worked! That's wonderful! You don't know how to patch the CivCity thing that comes with the scenario? Or a windows 10 version that already exists? Cause if this is the app I think it is, it's a vital scenario making tool, as would the similar CivTweak? the one where you can not only modify the other civs, but the Barbarians too. Also, can you tell me what Choice MS DOS application in the scenario does? I'm still recovering from a horrible viral infection, but I can't find what is does in the documentation.

    @techumseh
    With a lack of better ideas, I have done the following:

    I do NO convoy runs, at all. Not worth it. First I research Sonar, to get Fleet Air Arm. And the Americas build nothing but them for several months. Now, there is one bit of cheese where I do air stacking, and that's within the (undisputed) air command of the continental Americas because this was a prime consideration for Axis subs. They could only attack outside that zone. <Myae I need to base the air fleets out of New York rather than the that wonderful (Long Island?) airbase, but it wouldn't matter given the liberty ships 10 movement. In practice though, this only gives one free tun to a three-turn voyage.

    What I do is build an aircraft carrier and as much maritime airpower as possible. Cause you HAVE to do air stacking or all the subs will TPK your fleet, no matter the battleships, the cruisers, and the destroyers are a joke on the defensive. You need eight Fleet Air Arms and carrier, but you air stack by not putting the air unit directly over the liberty ships but rather putting a fleet air arm in every space around the ships, making them completely invulnerable. For one turn. But this severely creates a fast and famine dynamic where you can't really build anything with cash until at least the middle of 1942 and must use aggressive strat bombing to keep Britain financially afloat.

    Game-wise it MIGHT be cheezy if not for the massive sub spawns but I think it's what the allies used historically. That and airships. I also had a house rule that liberty ships have transport of 10 BUT, cannot be used to transfer troops to Britain, so I can do Torch without having to capture Sirte. But since the armies are spawned in via event, and the Troch unis are YUGE, like so massive I have to use a Trumpisnm, it' kinda overkill. and doesn't actually affect gameplay very much.

    I have not used this for convoy duty YET, but I did use it for what I call Operation Valiant (the wartime invasion of Norway, EDIT: I just found the actual operation was called Jupiter), which works even without ful air coverage because there are few enough subs in the North Atlantic that a good stack of cruisers and battleships CAN tank the sub attacks. Now in the Med, I do air stacking BUT, I set it that cruisers can attack air units, which helps the Italian Navy far more. Mostly I have the Royal Navy hide in the ports and they peek their heads out for quick strikes. I have lost assets like this, and it's not without risk and stress.

    I also don't see the point in using Winter Rules for 1941. Mostly because all the fighting in 1941 is gonna be in the Med and those tules are important for Europe, but Movement and such should be unaffected in North Africa. Also, I did not see any strategic change in Axis/Soviet taking of cities. Once you get into Central Italy or the Balkans, then YES, things really change.

    I know there's a makeagression command in pre-Lua events. Is there a make peace or make allies event command I could use on the Finns? Game-wise, it changes almost nothing BUT it's pure viedogame caring potential. ANd of ocurse, this os ONLY for my personal use.
     
  8. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,493
    Konig15 likes this.
  9. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2001
    Messages:
    28,763
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Innsmouth
    I've found Civitas to be an essential scenario-making tool - I used it minutes ago to re-assign cities...The modern day, improved version of the famous CivCity. :)
     
  10. McMonkey

    McMonkey ----Evertonian---- SLeague Staff

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,875
    Location:
    Cardiff
    It has been a very long time since I looked at this scenario but I think I remember a strategy for the Atlantic convoys that worked pretty well for me.

    Spoiler SPOILER :
    If you send your convoys along the far north map edge (IE the furthest you can get from the U-Boat spawning locations) and concentrate your anti-U-Boat sweeps just south of that to try and catch the nearest enemy within range, you should get most of your convoys through safely.


    If I'd have had access to ToTPP & Lua back then I'm sure I could have come up with a much better system but I worked with what I had. If I remember correctly, without the mid-Atlantic spawning, all the U-Boats would just head to the French Atlantic close where they hung out in big clumps, waiting for the Allies to sink them. The random mid-Atlantic spawning was a compromise, though far from an ideal one.

    The German defences are also set up with a fairly conventional recreation of real-life events in mind. IE, you need to clear North Africa to allow an attack on Sicily/Italy, which in turn opens up the opportunity to launch a cross channel invasion. This is done by homing very strong bunker units to cities in the Allies historical path, which are disbanded once captured. If you try & bypass these historical objectives and go for an Alternative history route then you'll have a tough time. Again, something I could have done a lot better with if I had had access to Lua or a lot more skill in writing the events. You can go quicker than the Allies did historically but you are encouraged to follow the historical progression & it is the AI Axis' job to prevent you from doing that.

    I realise this won't suit everyone's tastes but I think at the time I just wanted to get a working scenario finished. I probably intended to work on a sequel with more complex events that would have allowed more flexible strategies but that has not happened as yet.

    I hope you have fun with it Konig.
     
    Konig15 likes this.
  11. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    Oh it's incredibly fun! I love you can screw with the neutrality of Turkey and Spain. And liberating Norway! I love the ideas in those, and wish there was a ready place for alternate plans of World War II I could crib.

    Actually, I want to ask for your permission to mod the scenario for a Fortress Europe redux, or something. With the 127 units, I could make a very awesome modification. I want to use your map and cities as a base, but do a 1939 start well maybe a June 1940 start), do some unit replacements, and I ave some ideas for improvements (like city im[provements) form other mods.

    But honestly, while I am annoyed I can't build banks but I completely understand. Very necessary. And no rail either, although with TOTPP I think it's time to put it back. I love your strat bombing method and regen. I'm not actually against the way the Subs are used, with nine stacks (either air surrounding the convoy), it works very well. Turns are very long and if you are sloppy, you WILL be punished.

    But as I said, I'd only like this map and the cities as a base. The strongpoint idea is a good one, but I want to build around non-sandbox operations, centered around things like assassinating Hitler, bombing Auschwitz, Operation Jupiter, and Operation Unthinkable. Obviously lots of research would be needed and I need to find a place where I can discuss counterfactuals with people who actually knowledgeable and not horrible douchebags (every Alt history site I've found is a den of GIFT, and usually lacking any creativity, and it's been this way for 15 years)

    It would not be thematically Fortress Europe, instead of being more or less Alan Brooke and the High Command, you are Churchill, using political clout to do crazy alternate ops. Cause the thing is, I like playing historically and laterally, mostly by ear and whim. I feel you've done a good job of doing the historical and I dn't see the point of reinventing the wheel any more than necessary.
     
  12. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2001
    Messages:
    28,763
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Innsmouth
    I like the idea of playing as Churchill and using a "Ministry of crazy war winning plans" in CIV2...
     
  13. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    Do you happen to know a big book of "crazy plans?" I mean, not on the Allied side but on the German side there was this thing called the Hunger Plan where the OKH was OK with starving millions of slavs to death by taking all their food to feed Germany in 1941 and 1942. People rightly point out this is a major evil act, but it didn't happen that way because most of the Soviet people went to the farms and in pre-modern agriculture. farm yields were dependant on manpower. This comes from Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction. But in that case, that implies that is the Germans had been scrupulous, instead of working slaves to death and committing the Holocaust on the pretext there's not enough food to go around (as per Conspiracy), if someone had studied the issue, then the German government could have well, systemically re-rualized the Polish population in particular to avoid a lot of hunger-related deaths.

    Same thing with the Bengal Famine of 1943, what were the alternatives. I understand not wanting to give the Japanese a huge boon in a giant food stock, but I dunno, stock the food in Orissa and then ship moderate amounts to Bengal as needed? Everyone talks about what actually happened and how horrible things went, but not alternatives. People criticize Hitler for launching the Battle of the Bulge, but no one to my knowledge has ever laid out a case where Hitler husbanding his resources leads to a better outcome for either himself, his regime or the German people.

    Operation Jupiter is AWESOME. So I need a good idea of how bad it could go and how intense the fight would be. I wonder if the commandos could have flipped Corsica right as Troch was happening. Just bought out the Vichy Garrison. We don't do a lot of bribery and defection in World War scenarios, but there are cases where I think it's WELL founded. But the thing is, no one talks about whether it COULD be done or not. It's simply unthinkable.
     
  14. McMonkey

    McMonkey ----Evertonian---- SLeague Staff

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,875
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Konig,

    Please feel free to use whatever you like from this scenario. A good deal of it was borrowed from other sources anyway. I like the concept of your scenario. Getting the AI Axis to steamroller the West in 1939/40 will be challenging, but if you use Lua events I'm sure it's possible.
     
    Konig15 likes this.
  15. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    JPetroski likes this.

Share This Page