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Forts?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Jamz, May 21, 2009.

  1. Jamz

    Jamz Chieftain

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    I've seen the issues with forts brought up many times on these forums, so i wont go into that, i just want to know if there are actually any plans on either stop automated workers making them, or giving us an option to disable them completely?

    This may seem like a small issue to some, buts its a big deal for me, that i either have to micro all my workers, a very tedious task especially late game and especially in multiplayer, or have to put up with forts popping up all over my land in wierd places.
     
  2. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Can I just ask you a simple question.
    What dificaulty level are you playing when you can not micro your workers and still win?
     
  3. Skyre Noktis

    Skyre Noktis Warlord

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    Presumably one he enjoys playing at. It's a game, not a competition.

    To answer the original question, v0.41's DLL reduces the priority the AI places on building forts, so that might help things out (I haven't yet tried playing the base mod with v0.41, though). I stopped the AI from building them completely in my mod, though at some point it might be nice to teach the AI to defend choke points with them.
     
  4. Breez

    Breez King

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    I always automate 1 worker... well I chose the "networking" option not the actual automate option. He runs around connecting new cities and resources I might over look.
     
  5. Furin

    Furin Warlord

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    I am thinking about adding one :food: , one :commerce: and one :hammers: to the highest level of the castle for my games, simulating the peasants settling around it, working for it and the castle itself being like a trading post for the adjacent ressource tiles. With the growth time and the yield of real ressource improvements, it wouldn't be good enough to spam castles, but still be good enough to not activly shun them.
     
  6. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    You got my point wrong. I was not trying to insault him.
    I was refering to the fact that the AI for automated workers can be so bad that on higher dificaulty levels your workers can become a huge threat to your own empire if you automate them. I sware, from my experiance those auto workers brings down more empires than any other type of AI in the game...
     
  7. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    I actually think the OP's point is quite clear - and this he is right that this can be especially true in multiplayer, when depending on settings there's a lot of time you find yourself running out of time on the turn timer. And automating workers isn't that bad past a certain point when you have core improvements up, though I tend to find myself just sleeping them if I really don't have time to mess with them, so I don't have to go looking later.

    Some suggestions:
    -Automated workers leave old improvements, leave forests: with these options on they should hardly "destroy" your empire - just be sure around new cities/places you need improvements to do some managing yourself. I suspect the above comment was somehow referring to allowing automated workers to replace old improvements, which is obviously not smart.
    -Automated workers never do harm just building road networks, not a bad thing to do either.

    So while I am the type of player who tends to control things to be the best I can see reasons for using automation too. And it is stupid to have workers constantly building forts outside of BFC tiles that really could just sit, or building forts when there are other things to so, so I agree in general the fort system could be improved.
     
  8. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    Disabling automated workers is easy. Just don't automate them.


    Unless you consider giving units with Commando a free ride through every tile in your empire to be harmful.
     
  9. Jamz

    Jamz Chieftain

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    I normally play emperor or higher depending on what civ i play, with no building requirents for the AI. If automated workers leave old improvements, and don't destroy forests, it can make the game ALOT smoother past turn 200, if only i didn't have to check for frikin forts all the time.

    Then there is ofc the AI who spams forts all over the place, without actully holding then, making it easy to find defendable possitions inside his own lands.
     
  10. readercolin

    readercolin King

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    You guys are aware that there is an option in the options menu to tell automated workers to leave forests and to leave old improvements, right? There is even an option to allow them to start out automated too.

    -Colin
     
  11. admtanaka

    admtanaka Warlord

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    I believe I've seen automated workers replace improvements with forts, regardless of the automation options I select.
     
  12. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    I don't use automated workers, but I am certainly in favor of increasing the intelligence behind the automation. No sense in leaving things half done.
     
  13. Luckmann

    Luckmann Esusian Epicure

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    I use automated workers all the time, all the way up to epic. A reasonable compromise, I feel, is to tell them to leave old improvements. Then, if they do build forts, I can usually spot it in time or simply build something else over it.

    I know it's suboptimal, and that I miss a couple of turns doing it. Doesn't solve the issue. In my opinion, automated workers should just stop doing forts. End of.
     
  14. Lade

    Lade Prince

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    I think he meant disabling forts

    Personally I find forts very useful, automate all my workers, and have no problem. I play at noble. Why? Because I want to have fun. If a huge lot of micro managment is what it takes to be good, well...
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    You could remove the build order for forts, and then maybe allow workers to build them through a spell with a low AI weight or even place distance requirements like with Pirate Coves.
     
  16. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    Yes, he does. I mean that even "fixing" the problem with automated workers spamming forts still won't make automating workers a good idea. Automated workers do almost everything wrong.

    The options to prevent them from replacing improvements and to leave forests will certainly reduce the damage they can do. However, I think he's also talking about the economic/developmental damage of poor improvement planning. The more you limit what automated workers can do the better off you are, to the point that the best solution is not to automate them at all.

    I agree that there are some situations when automating workers could have a purpose. In MP it would certainly save time, but then everyone is under the same limitations and so either also automates (in which case the field is level) or is able to control their workers faster or more efficiently (in which case they deserve to flourish, as a reward). I suppose there may be someone out there who likes to get in a quick game of FfH2 during their lunch break; I'd imagine that for that person automation would be indispensable.

    I agree. The AIs performance would be improved if it were better able to determine when placing a fort was appropriate, or even if it just never built forts. Any limitation would probably be better, as long as there isn't any change to my ability to manually place forts where I see fit.

    This is exactly what I worry about: a tweak to how fort placement works in an attempt to fix fort spam that ends up limiting my ability to use forts.

    Actually, I just looked over the couple of games I have going and the AI doesn't seem to be building more than one or two forts per city, so perhaps that change has worked. I don't know if that affects all automated workers or just AI workers, though.
     
  17. travathian

    travathian Warlord

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    Forts should simply be taken out of the single player game. The AI is too dumb to know where to build them for even marginal benefit, not to mention too dumb to know when to fortify units from within one. Plus the fact that it wastes countless turns building something of minimal use instead of improving terrain being worked. This puts the already dubious AI at a further disadvantage against a human opponent.

    Just remove them entirely and be done with it.
     
  18. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I hate this idea so much that it can not be expresed in the mortal languages.
    For me, with manualy controled workers forts are indespensible. A 2 or 3 plots long fort line can realy mess up someones day and block off a choke point.

    That is exacly what I am talking about. They just can newer reach the level of planing that a normal human can. And I have yet to see a single of them build anything other than a farm or a cotage... (is this just me?)
    Not to mention the part where they run into a war zone to improve my newly conquered city...

    I disagree with this. Forts are extremely usefull. The AI just needs to be taught how to use them.
     
  19. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    Back to the thread starter:

    There is no real way to avoid automating forts but here is something you can do:

    if you see your worker fort building, you can run it to to the next place you actually want something and build it up. but i offer a small piece of advice:

    normally, size 6-12 cities aren't going to want to work every tile, and a good road network is one that you can use and enemies can not.

    I like to build improvements where i need them first: resource - then cottage - then i save the roads for when i have my improvements up and a third city.
    When i find bronze i immediately connect it, starting a highway for my empire.. here is a way to ease the trouble:

    Hold shift when you click your worker, and select your action.
    Then click and drag it where you want it (while still holding shift), then choose your actions.
    you might spend 20 seconds directing the next 30 turns of the worker - knowing what its building.

    worker stacks working on pre-determined orders is less inconvenient than automated workers because you know what improvements you will get and where.


    If you only have 1-2 roads connecting your cities and extending to vital resources and choke points you can get the less important resources later on and know enemy units won't be moving 2 spots through your entire empire.

    besides this you can also move a worker INSIDE a city then select "improve nearest city" and when you see it complete its city you can manually walk it to the next city to "improve nearest city" again.

    This is also important.
     
  20. travathian

    travathian Warlord

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    Which will never happen, and thus why they simply need to be removed. They are basically an exploit against the AI at this point. Not only does the human player get a bonus by using them correctly, but the AI suffers a penalty because they NEVER use them correctly and waste countless worker turns building them. The worker AI doesn't even build windmills, watermills, and lumbermills effectively and those are much easier to code for than a fort. Not to mention that once you get the AI to even build a fort in a correct location it has to be programmed how to utilize that fort to maximum effect. Again, otherwise it is simply an exploit for the human player against the AI.

    I'm not saying forts aren't useful, they are, in a multiplayer game. In a single player game they are an exploit against the abysmal AI.
     

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