Founding a religion on Emperor

[crdvis16]

I typically don't bother trying for a religion unless I am specifically playing a civ that benefits more than usual from founding one. I just find that it takes too much effort to found and spread that it's not worth it unless the civ's attributes call for it.

I'm now trying to get a game going as Spain, so of course I am trying to found a religion as it is central to their UA/UB. My problem is that Spain doesn't have any big bonuses that help me found in the first place and after 4 initial attempts I have failed to found a religion every time.

In two of the games I built shrines first in all of my cities (even before a pathfinder) to prioritize getting a pantheon and then a religion. I also got lucky enough in both games to settle next to Mt. Sinai/Mt. Fuji in one of my early cities for a boost to my early culture/faith. One of the games gave me a particularly good pantheon in "God of the Stars and Sky" (1 culture, 1 faith, 2 production for tundra tiles with improved resources) and I counted a total of 10 improved tundra resources being worked by my initial 4 cities (as well as Mt Fuji, so 14 faith/turn just from worked tiles). I think I had something like 24 faith/turn and about 10 turns left to spawn my GP when the last religion was founded leaving me without one of my own.

Two of the times I researched pottery first while building a shrine first in my capital and then immediately started building Stonehenge when pottery finished. I focused production (even to the detriment of not growing in population in order to get Stonehenge as fast as possible) and in both games I was beaten to Stonehenge by another civ with 1-3 turns left to complete it myself. I abandoned those games once I lost Stonehenge, assuming I would not be able to found a religion and might not recover well from going all in on it and missing it.

I'm surprised that it's so difficult to found a religion even when making it my top early game priority. I used to play on Immortal difficulty a long time ago and I seem to remember being able to consistently found a religion if I tried for one at all, but now it seems much more difficult. Is there something I could be missing? Maybe I got incredibly unlucky with who the other civs were in my game (got Celts/India/Ethiopia/etc every game and just didn't realize it?).

Do you guys find that it is possible to ever build Stonehenge on Emperor difficulty or above? Is it possible to consistently found a religion if you make it your top priority with a civ like Spain that doesn't have significant bonuses to doing so?

I'm taking Progress as my initial policy, as I plan to play a very wide religious game with Spain but maybe Progress is not suited for founding a religion (I would think wide play and religion synergize well...). Or maybe the key to found a religion with Spain is to city spam early on and use the bonus faith from new cities to get your religion? I think it's something like 40 faith in the ancient era when settling a city- is that the way to go? I would think spamming settled cities early on could be troublesome though- it gets the attention of nearby aggressive civs since your cities are likely not defended well and they dislike you claiming so much land. It also might not be possible depending on how crowded your initial starting area is.

 

[tu_79]

My strategy with Spain is just settle as many cities as I can. Only then, build some shrines. Goddess of Commerce goes quite well, but anything that benefits from your terrain or for going wide is usually good enough. Faith on settling is usually enough for your pantheon. If you feel like fighting a lot, then God of War (TM).

 

[CrazyG]

Stonehenge is hard to build, especially as progress, but you don't need it for a religion. My guess would be that your settlers are coming out too late, and therefore so are your shrines. Spain's bonus faith is pretty substantial, but I find her to be a fairly difficult civ to play

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

When I'm playing (on immortal) with a civ without inherent religious bonuses (i.e. not as Byzantium, Aztecs, Celts,...), I almost always try to pick the pantheon "God of war". I'm usually able to found first or second, unless the Maya or some other religious civs are in the game.

So my advice -> try to get God of war and go barb hunting&declare on a neighbour.

 

[crdvis16]

So it sounds like the consensus is more city spam + early shrines. If I'm playing Standard size with 8 civs how many initial cities are we talking? Typically I find that anything more than 6 will force me to settle dangerously close to other civs (thus tempting a DoW) and put me pretty far negative in the happiness department.

Should I be going extreme, like shrine->settler x 5 as my initial build? Obviously this would leave me somewhat crippled early on and playing catch-up, but maybe worth it to get the religion? Or can I get away with shrine->granary-> settler x2 -> some catchup buildings/workers -> settler x3?

And this also begs the question- how would a regular civ without any bonuses to faith generation ever hope to found a religion on Emperor or above?

 

[crdvis16]

When I'm playing (on immortal) with a civ without inherent religious bonuses (i.e. not as Byzantium, Aztecs, Celts,...), I almost always try to pick the pantheon "God of war". I'm usually able to found first or second, unless the Maya or some other religious civs are in the game.

So my advice -> try to get God of war and go barb hunting&declare on a neighbour.

Interesting. I don't think I've ever tried out God of War, but you and Tu both recommend it. I could go Authority as well and just plan to play more aggressively. My initial plan was to play somewhat aggressively (maybe conquering a nearby religious civ) but not all out warmonger.

 

[Owlbebach]

As for me - shrine first + investing into shrines whenever in is possible + right pantheon choice = 90% chance of getting a religion on deity (progress could work extremely well with commerce).

I usually try to build as much cities as i can, simply because the earlier you found a city - the earlier it will become good. Late cities are dragging you down sooo hard, they alway have less buildings, produce more unhappiness, produce less culture and science and are ghetto overall.

I usually go shrine -> 1 more building (monument/council/worker) -> as much settlers as i need (8 cities for tradition is optimal, 10-12 for progress and authority). You can build settlers in secondary cities, its ok if they are 3+ population. Also don't forget that cities do not starve when they build settlers, you can work only hills tiles.

I typically don't bother trying for a religion unless I am specifically playing a civ that benefits more than usual from founding one. I just find that it takes too much effort to found and spread that it's not worth it unless the civ's attributes call for it.

You are incredibly wrong. Try to combine religion belief carefully, religion is so strong that me and my friend agreed not to take religion with non-religious civs when we play together. Otherwise it feels unfair

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Religion is great for any civ (perhaps not India).

If you take God of war, you don't have to go Authority or go warmonger. You just have to focus on attacking as many barbs as possible and with Spain's bonuses, it should be enough. Also, I recommend beelining for Military Tradition (after researching pottery) and build a few horsemen, they're excellent for racking up faith with God of war. I often have very little accumulated faith until turn 35 or so, but then I get horsemen and I usually found around turn 85-90.

 

[crdvis16]

As for me - shrine first + investing into shrines whenever in is possible + right pantheon choice = 90% chance of getting a religion on deity (progress could work extremely well with commerce).

I usually try to build as much cities as i can, simply because the earlier you found a city - the earlier it will become good. Late cities are dragging you down sooo hard, they alway have less buildings, produce more unhappiness, produce less culture and science and are ghetto overall.

I usually go shrine -> 1 more building (monument/council/worker) -> as much settlers as i need (8 cities for tradition is optimal, 10-12 for progress and authority). You can build settlers in secondary cities, its ok if they are 3+ population. Also don't forget that cities do not starve when they build settlers, you can work only hills tiles.



You are incredibly wrong. Try to combine religion belief carefully, religion is so strong that me and my friend agreed not to take religion with non-religious civs when we play together. Otherwise it feels unfair

Wow, it seems like others tend to prioritize city settling more than I do. Perhaps this is exposing a fundamental difference in the way I play (and perhaps a way that I am playing less efficiently than I should). My typical strategy is to first get my capital going well before I make my first settler. Something like pathfinder->monument->shrine->council->worker/granary/well->settler. After the first settler I often build a building, worker, or military unit before making the next settler. This usually seems to give time for my happiness to recover slightly and for my capital to stay current on buildings and to give me a military large enough to avoid early invasion. I often stop building my initial 3-4 settlers once the best nearby city locations have been taken (usually enough to get me a global monopoly on my nearby lux). I usually have another 3 or so nearby spots slated for a city, but I tend to not prioritize settling them unless other needs are met first (happiness, military, economy, etc). After that, the only other cities I tend to settle might be small islands that I find unsettled in mid game and other cities are acquired via warfare if that is part of my overall game plan. This generally tends to mirror what the AI does so I assumed it was somewhat reasonable as a strategy.

If you prioritize settling 8-12 cities ASAP don't you run into huge happiness issues? Don't you get exposed to early DoW if you happen to be near a warmonger, especially since you presumably end up forward settling others a bit (unless you're playing something other than standard size maps with 8 civs?).

I do agree that religion can be extremely strong. However, even if you don't found a religion you do somewhat still benefit from them once they get spread to your cities. I do get an early pantheon of course and benefit from that early on as well. I just find that unless I am looking to really commit to a religion it just takes too much effort to found one and then defend/spread it. I figure I could instead allow my cities to gain a foreign religion and get the follower beliefs and then just use all of my faith for great person purchases later on.

 

[CrazyG]

Religion is great for any civ (perhaps not India)

You know India gets half price great prophets right? The hardest part of playing India is not having enough religion, because so many beliefs have great synergy but you can only pick 2 followers.

Wow, it seems like others tend to prioritize city settling more than I do. Perhaps this is exposing a fundamental difference in the way I play (and perhaps a way that I am playing less efficiently than I should). My typical strategy is to first get my capital going well before I make my first settler. Something like pathfinder->monument->shrine->council->worker/granary/well->settler.

If you want to play like this, I would suggest not using Spain and not using progress. I typically want a second city settled within at least 40 turns on standard speed. There are situations you can wait even more but I find its important to get it out early, even 40 might be waiting a bit too long.

Especially if you can settle near a natural wonder, the hammers on a settler will give a much better return than most things in your capital. Also try not to spend gold in your capital, use to invest in the first building on newer cities

 

[crdvis16]

You know India gets half price great prophets right? The hardest part of playing India is not having enough religion, because so many beliefs have great synergy but you can only pick 2 followers.


If you want to play like this, I would suggest not using Spain and not using progress. I typically want a second city settled within at least 40 turns on standard speed. There are situations you can wait even more but I find its important to get it out early, even 40 might be waiting a bit too long.

Especially if you can settle near a natural wonder, the hammers on a settler will give a much better return than most things in your capital. Also try not to spend gold in your capital, use to invest in the first building on newer cities

Nope- I'm all for changing up my play style when playing different civs. I think the civs that encourage unorthodox play are the best. So if the way to play Spain is to bump up the priority on settlers early on then I'll give it a shot. I like wide play for religion anyway as the passive pressure saves you some faith on missionaries.

 

[tu_79]

Wow, it seems like others tend to prioritize city settling more than I do. Perhaps this is exposing a fundamental difference in the way I play (and perhaps a way that I am playing less efficiently than I should). My typical strategy is to first get my capital going well before I make my first settler. Something like pathfinder->monument->shrine->council->worker/granary/well->settler. After the first settler I often build a building, worker, or military unit before making the next settler. This usually seems to give time for my happiness to recover slightly and for my capital to stay current on buildings and to give me a military large enough to avoid early invasion. I often stop building my initial 3-4 settlers once the best nearby city locations have been taken (usually enough to get me a global monopoly on my nearby lux). I usually have another 3 or so nearby spots slated for a city, but I tend to not prioritize settling them unless other needs are met first (happiness, military, economy, etc). After that, the only other cities I tend to settle might be small islands that I find unsettled in mid game and other cities are acquired via warfare if that is part of my overall game plan. This generally tends to mirror what the AI does so I assumed it was somewhat reasonable as a strategy.

If you prioritize settling 8-12 cities ASAP don't you run into huge happiness issues? Don't you get exposed to early DoW if you happen to be near a warmonger, especially since you presumably end up forward settling others a bit (unless you're playing something other than standard size maps with 8 civs?).

I do agree that religion can be extremely strong. However, even if you don't found a religion you do somewhat still benefit from them once they get spread to your cities. I do get an early pantheon of course and benefit from that early on as well. I just find that unless I am looking to really commit to a religion it just takes too much effort to found one and then defend/spread it. I figure I could instead allow my cities to gain a foreign religion and get the follower beliefs and then just use all of my faith for great person purchases later on.

This playstyle works well for an Authority start, but not for Spain. It takes too much since you begin gaining cities, thus your pantheon comes late. Unless you are planning on usurping, don't go that path.

If Spain is successful settling all the peaceful area then she has little barbs to fight (other than state invasions) , and being progress probably would avoid fighting for a while. Commerce is ideal in this situation. If you expect some contest in your borders, then plan for war. Warmongers neighbors, too close, not easily defensible terrain... those things.
The question is not only how many cities, but how farther they should be settled. Every four tiles is the closest, fit for Progress . Five tiles works well for anything. Six tiles or more fits tradition for their populated cities and faster border expansion (except the capital who works mostly specialists).

 

[crdvis16]

This playstyle works well for an Authority start, but not for Spain. It takes too much since you begin gaining cities, thus your pantheon comes late. Unless you are planning on usurping, don't go that path.

If Spain is successful settling all the peaceful area then she has little barbs to fight (other than state invasions) , and being progress probably would avoid fighting for a while. Commerce is ideal in this situation. If you expect some contest in your borders, then plan for war. Warmongers neighbors, too close, not easily defensible terrain... those things.
The question is not only how many cities, but how farther they should be settled. Every four tiles is the closest, fit for Progress . Five tiles works well for anything. Six tiles or more fits tradition for their populated cities and faster border expansion (except the capital who works mostly specialists).

Sounds good. I think I will stick with Progress and try to spam cities early on with Spain to get my religion going. I'll either grab a good terrain pantheon or something that synergizes with wide play. My first priority will be to dominate my continent with my religion, using force if necessary.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I know about India, it's just that its religious game can be much different from that of other civs, due to no missionaries. So what I meant was that it's specific and that some players might struggle with it whereas they wouldn't with any other civ.

 

[crdvis16]

I made two more attempts to get a game going with Spain last night, both times attempting to use Spain's faith upon founding a city to get my pantheon and religion. My strategy was to pretty much spam settlers and to build shrines first in every city. Standard map size, 8 civs, Emperor difficulty.

First attempt went fairly well. I went something like shrine->monument->settler x 3->herbalist->settler x 2 in my capital and built shrines first in every city. All of my cities were heavily jungle/forest and I was able to grab "Goddes of Renewal" for +1 culture/+1 faith for every 2 jungle/forest tiles worked by a city as well as +1 science/+1 faith in herbalists. 2nd city also contained Sri Prada for some bonus faith. I pretty quickly planted 5-6 cities with plans for 2 more. I actually founded the very first religion in the game, so it seems like spamming cities with Spain along with a decent faith generating pantheon is enough to get a fairly early religion at times. However, the main problem in this game was a lack of space. I got somewhat forward settled by both Rome and Indonesia so my 2nd and 3rd cities were planted close to their borders in as good of a defensive position as I could manage. I was hoping that the heavily forested/jungled tiles nearby and strategically located rivers would keep me safe. Unfortunately, neglecting my military while spamming settlers in order to get a religion going was my downfall, as both Rome and Indonesia DoW'd me within a few turns of each other shortly after I founded my religion. They each had their UU (Kris swordsmen and Legionnaires) that made quick work of my few spearmen/warrior/archers and took my 2nd and 3rd city fairly easily (and my 2nd city ended up being my holy city...). At least I managed to actually found a religion this time. I'm not sure what I could have really done in this game to both found my religion and defend myself. I definitely should have built walls early in the two border cities I had but I'm not really sure that would have been enough to save them. I guess I should have found a way to build a few more military units early on but I was so worried about being able to found a religion that I didn't want to stop settler or shrine production for anything. In any case, I chalked that game up to bad luck with positioning as I don't find it to be particularly common to get forward settled like that by 2 civs.

The following game I decided to just retry the same strategy. Similar build order in my capital to spam settlers. However, this time I had no clear cut pantheon to take. My nearby luxury monopoly was perfume and the general terrain/resources didn't really lend themselves to a particular pantheon. I ended up choosing Ancestor Worship for +1 faith per 3 followers in the city and extra culture on my councils. My general positioning seemed to be more promising in this game. My closest neighbor was Indonesia (sweet! I can get revenge...) and I was able to found 2 cities in good defensive locations that essentially blocked off my peninsula from him, leaving me with an area that could pretty easily handle about 7 city locations with decent tiles. One big advantage in this game was that I had good GPT and culture from all of the Perfume tiles I was working as well as the extra culture on my councils, so I went shrine-council first in all cities. I was able to buy a bunch of warriors/archers and a few workers with the excess gold I had such that I felt I could fairly easily defend myself from Indonesia who was no doubt planning to DoW once he got a few Kris's out. And then, with like 10 turns to go to spawn my GP, all 4 religion slots were taken and I was out of luck. I had 6 cities with the next settler on his way to found the 7th, likely with 4-5 or so shrines up and running. Admittedly, my pantheon was on the weaker side and only giving me a total of 6-7 faith per turn. At the 'retire' screen I checked who the other civs in the game were and the only one that seemed like a heavy religion civ was Arabia. So maybe Arabia focused faith early as well, and maybe some other civ grabbed Stonehenge. But why I wasn't able to beat out the other 2 civs to found a religion is beyond me when I am totally prioritizing faith generation like this.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I again recommend trying a game where you use 2-3 warriors and 2 horsemen to attack barbs while using God of War.

Also remember that sometimes you can "help" generate more barbs by occasionally attacking an encampment without destroying it. Each attack on a barbarian encampment increases the chances of a barbarian spawning the next turn.

 

[crdvis16]

I can't remember for sure, but I *think* God of War was already taken in that second game where I didn't have as good of a pantheon choice. But I will keep an eye out for it in my next game as a possible means to get a religion.

 

[grmagne]

I again recommend trying a game where you use 2-3 warriors and 2 horsemen to attack barbs while using God of War.

Also remember that sometimes you can "help" generate more barbs by occasionally attacking an encampment without destroying it. Each attack on a barbarian encampment increases the chances of a barbarian spawning the next turn.

God of War often achieves the goal, but a player shouldn't feel forced to play exactly the same way every game just to get a religion. Ideally there would be multiple paths to get it, and it'ss very frustrating when non-religious AI civs grab the last religion right before a player that is prioritizing faith in every decision. Does anyone know how much of a discount the AI gets at higher difficulty levels for its Great Prophets?

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I think God of War is the most reliable option for the human player to get a religion on higher difficulties. While a player may try with other panteons&strategies that have a bigger payoff long-term, they also have a greater risk of not getting a religion.

I don't the the AI gets a discount for a great prophet (not anymore, Gazebo fixed it several months ago), but it gets a significant discount to buildings, so it can create shrines much faster than the human player; it gets other benefits which help get more out a pantheon, for example the AI's cities start growing much faster, and that can lead to a higher pantheon faith output etc.

 

[Owlbebach]

I went something like shrine->monument->settler x 3->herbalist->settler x 2 in my capital and built shrines first in every city. All of my cities were heavily jungle/forest and I was able to grab "Goddes of Renewal" for +1 culture/+1 faith for every 2 jungle/forest tiles worked by a city as well as +1 science/+1 faith in herbalists. I got somewhat forward settled by both Rome and Indonesia so my 2nd and 3rd cities were planted close to their borders in as good of a defensive position as I could manage. I was hoping that the heavily forested/jungled tiles nearby and strategically located rivers would keep me safe. Unfortunately, neglecting my military while spamming settlers in order to get a religion going was my downfall, as both Rome and Indonesia DoW'd me within a few turns of each other shortly after I founded my religion. They each had their UU (Kris swordsmen and Legionnaires) that made quick work of my few spearmen/warrior/archers and took my 2nd and 3rd city fairly easily (and my 2nd city ended up being my holy city...).

Herbalist was your first mistake, it gives literally nothing for building settlers (your city is 3-4 pop, so it is 4 additional food, its equal to 2 hammers at maximum, not to mention that you should not work forest tiles when you build settlers). This basically delayed two of your last cities for 15 turns, wich is equal to 1 building in every city or two additional workers. Thats a lot!

Your second mistake was thinking that forest is defensive - keep in mind that swordsman have defense bonus in forest, legions are immortal in forest. Also you should build cities on hills, that gives you ability to shoot over the forest and 3 additional defense points in city (it is a lot! more than 50% before walls are ready!)

Your third mistake was to go progress with Rome and Indoneisia living next to you. They are bad neighbours, on Emperor tradition may work, on deity - authority only.

Your fourth mistake was to go calendar - expensive and absolutely useless tech. You have to go military theory, this gives you barraks which are main source of science and horseman, which are main defence force early on. Then you have to go walls. Than you go trade, cause otherwise you will be burrowed in poverty. Horseman inside a city on hill with walls is 25 defense - they will need 4-5 swordsman at least to capture a city. And it will take a lot of time, so you will be able to buy some reinforcements.

Your fifth mistake was to found religion in 2nd city, you should found in capital, capital is always better than any other city and there is a lot of religions that benefit holy city more than any other city.

And building 7 settlers in a row is not a mistake. And keep in mind that Renewal works only when you work 2 forests 2 jungle tiles. It does not work when you work 1 jungle + 1 forest.

The following game I decided to just retry the same strategy. (...) I ended up choosing Ancestor Worship for +1 faith per 3 followers in the city and extra culture on my councils.

Ancestor is bad for founding, if you want to go progress+religion - you should take commerce and free worker policy. That guarantees a religion for you. Also you should not just build shrine first, but invest in shrines if you have enough money. Also other civs may be lucky with ruins, personally i prefer to play without ruins, cause it is a lottery