Founding a Religion - when is it worthwhile?

I never found the early religion. I find the cost of moving away from the worker techs too high in the early game. That being said, I'm the founder of confucianism about 80% of the time, regardless of whether or not it's actually a useful thing to be. Code of Laws is too important a technology in too many cases to delay it, whether I'm in need of caste system playing the SE, the courthouses for warmongering, or the religion for the diplo-trade benefits. If in fact the religious aspect isn't required, it isn't necessary to switch to it, you can always nerf it's growth by doing nothing with it just like taoism or islam almost always are.

But I've got a question, has anyone here ever founded a religion they have no need for, but have spread it to other civs merely as a way of creating enemies? Either for themselves, or make them a target of a shaka, monty or izzy? I'm prob just talking out of my @ss here,but the idea just came to my head. If you've got a love-fest on your continent and you wanna do a little warmongering, would it be a viable strategy to spread taoism to a neighbour in the hopes they'll switch over and you avoid the 'you declared war on our friend', or that it might swing the difference in gaining a few war allies on the way?
 
§L¥ Gµ¥;7814925 said:
I never found the early religion. I find the cost of moving away from the worker techs too high in the early game. That being said, I'm the founder of confucianism about 80% of the time, regardless of whether or not it's actually a useful thing to be. Code of Laws is too important a technology in too many cases to delay it, whether I'm in need of caste system playing the SE, the courthouses for warmongering, or the religion for the diplo-trade benefits. If in fact the religious aspect isn't required, it isn't necessary to switch to it, you can always nerf it's growth by doing nothing with it just like taoism or islam almost always are.

But I've got a question, has anyone here ever founded a religion they have no need for, but have spread it to other civs merely as a way of creating enemies? Either for themselves, or make them a target of a shaka, monty or izzy? I'm prob just talking out of my @ss here,but the idea just came to my head. If you've got a love-fest on your continent and you wanna do a little warmongering, would it be a viable strategy to spread taoism to a neighbour in the hopes they'll switch over and you avoid the 'you declared war on our friend', or that it might swing the difference in gaining a few war allies on the way?
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Hehe, no that's fun to do. Usually I can't be bothered, but I've done a couple OCC games where I do just that. If I was playing a game where I didn't have one of the zealots who build more missionaries than soldiers, but who still founds the dominant religion, then I would do this.

But someone like Izzy or Charlemagne founds the first religion on the island, sometimes it feels like every city has that religion spread to it by the time Judaism is founded.
 
I doubt you would be able to pull that off. To get the AI to switch religions you'd have to spam it to nearly all of their cities. The missionary cost would be too much.
 
noto2 said:
I doubt you would be able to pull that off. To get the AI to switch religions you'd have to spam it to nearly all of their cities. The missionary cost would be too much.
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If you get them early, you just need to get in there first, then often times they'll do the rest.
 
In the test game for the next emperor tutorial I landed Hinduism shrined up before 1000BC and got 2 other civs to convert and we're the three dominant civs now. I started working on Paper in the BCs and could have pushed for a liberalism around 500-600AD but diverted a bit to pick up other techs necessary. Having a shrine city producing double digit gold in the BC's is far more powerful than I think people realize. I did spam out maybe 15 hindu missionaries this game (and 5 or so christian missionaries to spread the AP religion to all my cities) but the ROI has been huge. Also Theo and DR are incredible trade bait ... I'm still sitting on DR which almost no one will research on their own.
 
I agree it should be possible. Getting there first makes things a lot easier, just spreading to 2-3 core cities means they're more inclined to spread it themselves and keep it as the state religion. But as we all know, having a civ found their own religion makes them switch more often than not, so the chance of that happening has to be taken into consideration as well.

But I guess the strategy I'm trying to ask about is if there already is religion present, and you want to make an enemy by spreading an otherwise minor religion to someone else in the hopes that they will switch, turning the continental love fest into a bloodbath.
 
At emperor level, marathon speed I will found the early religion IF

1) I start with mysticism.

2) I can work 1 commerce/3 food tile right away.

The benefits

1) The easrly border pop once religion has spread. You do not need to adopt the religion, the +1 culture comes anyway. All you need is a trade route and patience. This saves ALOT of hammers on numerous Monuments.

2) The ealry option to manpulate diplomacy. Remember, your founded religion can be ignored, but you can also adopt it if your neighbors get it spread to them.

3) The potential for the shrine is enormous!

4) You are 1 tech away from opening up the Oracle which if you build get's you a free tech as well as Prophet points towards the shrine.

5) Sometimes "Taking" a shrined holy city is tough or done too late to matter than much.

Once I get the early religion, the tech path needs to be addressed differently

A) FOOD. Next tech has to get you a worker food tech unless you have it already (agriculture, fishing, or if lucky hunting for deer).

B) The fastest route to military. Archers preferred, however AH or BW is possible if you start with the wheel or mining. Since copper and horses have to be settled near AND hooked up I almost always pursue archery once I get food.

C) If Ragnar, Shaka, Monty, or Ghengis are nearby I almost always shut the religion attempt off and head towards food and military.
 
Okay, so we all have that inner noob that secretly wants to found every religion and build every shrine.
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Uhh.... No.
 
i used to think that it was never worthwhile, however i have since revised that idea.

founding earlier religions is clearly superior than establishing islam or christianity*, as far as the game is concerned; taoism sort of walks the line, depending on various game situations.

many of the posts that i read here report that: if you wait for an ai neighbor to found a religion, they will spread it to you. but religions will also spread along trade routes, and that the ai will spread its state religion around its own cities. so, if you are able to found an early religion and spread it to one of the more zealous ai, e.g. isabella, et al., then you have the opportunity build a very profitable, possibly bureaucratic, shrine city.

i think that justinian is a great leader to use to found a religion, especially buddhism.

first, work any commerce tile you have to beat any others to either meditation or polytheism. i would take the former, though a builder might prefer the latter. then, fix your city production and research fishing, agriculture or hunting; depending on your map, if you have: fish, cereals or livestock, respectively. justinian starts with wheel, so tech through to writing by either pottery or animal husbandry, build trade routes toward your most fervent neighbor and open borders asap.

you also need priesthood, for temples to run specialists, or some other means of generating gpp** so that you can actually build the mahabodhi or whatever shrine you go after. because i think the whole point of founding a religion is that you get to control, without conquest, a major gold-boosting wonder. and having an early and powerful source of income is especially useful for an imperialistic leader, as the instinct is to expand horizontally.

also, great-shrine cities will scale their advantages through many ages; they receive a 3x multiplier from markets, grocers, banks and wall street.

so, founding a religion is more worthwhile if you can do it early, and as such, buddhism and hinduism are usually the most so. however, unless you are playing a civ that starts with mysticism, it is an unlikely gamble that you will found these early ones.

founding judaism or confucianism might be worthwhile if, after some brief exploring, you realize there are no other religions on your land-mass, and you aren't neighbors to a religious-fanatic. my reasoning is that, if at all possible, i should control the holy shrine of the dominant religion on my continent, though its importance does scale with map size.

founding religions after these four becomes increasingly more dependent on circumstances. there is a strong case for them if you plan on pursuing a cultural victory, though any other victory scenario will likely not require them.

edit:

it is important to note that religions will likely not spread across oceans because by the time astronomy is discovered most religions are well established. the kind of map you're on can drastically affect the decision to expend resources to found religious shrines.

* although, sometimes it also pops early.
** chop/whip the oracle, needs bronze-working.
 
Lately I've been playing Lincoln a lot, on Prince. Lincoln is a strong techer through bulbing and specializing a science city early, and through having the Pyramids and running Representation (Mids should be a priority for Lincoln). I find that I can always get Islam and Taoism, and one and often both of Confucianism and Christianity. And about a third of the time I also get an early religion through rushing the neighbor who founded it.

So I'll usually have control of 3 to 5 religions, and about half the time I get two shrines in the same city. This city becomes my gold city - gets Wall Street, and corporations I found later, etc.

Being either first or second to Christianity means that I get the AP. So once I'm building the AP, I've declared a state religion that I control, and run OR. The production boost from the monasteries and temples is very helpful, especially for Lincoln. OR plus the AP production boost lets me build up my cities after the initial expansion/rush.

Then later in the game I can switch to FR. 3 to 5 religions plus FR means that you do not need to build the Globe Theater in you GP farm city. 5 religions = +10 happiness with just temples, +15 happiness with Temples+Cathedrals+Incense. You can just run National Epic by itself until the National Park comes along (assuming you had a good tree city), or combine National Epic and Oxford University otherwise.

So to summarize:
The gold boost from shrines in the early-mid game is big reason #1;
The production boost from the AP early-mid game is big reason #1a if the religion is Christianty;
And the ability to optimize the specialist or hybrid economy late game is reason #2.

But I'm just a Prince player, so there are probably a lot of other pro's and con's to consider.
 
Why do people keep talking about the risk of going for a religion? That is obvious. My post has nothing to do with the risk involved in going for an early religion, my post is questioning the value of getting one. Assume that you WILL get Hindu, Budd, or Jud if you go for it. Even knowing that you will be successful, is it worthwhile? Remember that you often have no worker techs while pursuing a religion and thus your initial growth is slowed greatly.
 
Are you only talking about going for an early religion? If so, my reply was off topic. But otherwise you can have your cake and eat it too by going for a late religion with a strong tech leader.
 
noto2 said:
Why do people keep talking about the risk of going for a religion? That is obvious. My post has nothing to do with the risk involved in going for an early religion, my post is questioning the value of getting one. Assume that you WILL get Hindu, Budd, or Jud if you go for it. Even knowing that you will be successful, is it worthwhile?
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I'm not sure that there's enough, but it might look something like this: early religion is a big culture boost. Cities that are "near" the capital can ignore worrying about culture, either because the holy city has already claimed the interesting resource.

On picking up Mediation, you also have the option of transferring culture (via missionaries). You also have the option of constructing a monastery, which is a cheap culture building that's actually provides additional return on the investment.

The early religions also give you the option of a cash cow in your capital, without having to jump through hoops (delaying other settlements, or palace-porting) to achieve it.


A perfect storm for Meditation might be the conditions under which you can land it plus gold. Gold -> early commerce -> early research -> lots of science to push through the monastery multiplier. With gold in pocket, you are nicely placed to the ignore the religion tree and concentrate your efforts on the Shadowan Paya, and use that wonder to unlock your civics (and prophet points).

Monotheism is a bit harder - I wouldn't want to gun that tech without having some sense of what's kind of hand you have been dealt. But that does give you a builder boost right away, so if your plans were vertical, rather than horizontal (ie - I had to pick up Masonry to get here, I might as well grab pyramids) you've got some synergy. No neighbors, or very secular neighbors, would probably be a piece of this puzzle too, taking advantage of the fact that the single religion could keep the dogs on the leash.

Poly is hardest to justify, I think. It's got the same border pop, early spread cred; but you have to make the call before you have a lot of information about your circumstance, and you can't spread the damn thing without additional religious study. Sure, if you have marble within reach (or better still, just out of reach except for the holy city culture boost), so that you want a shot at those wonders anyway, you might as well grab the brass ring as well.

At one point, Poly also had the advantage that the AI was less likely to research that direction out of the box. I haven't checked the math on this in a long time, though.
 
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