Founding a Religion - when is it worthwhile?

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Under these circumstances you have good odds of winning the race for your first religion

Sure about that? The last time I counted out the turns, there came a point where you couldn't beat the AI in a race, simply because the cost to them was a turn less in beakers. Your 10% would have to come from civs researching elsewhere, not from beating them.

But that memory is stale, and should be treated as suspect until demonstrated.

 

[mirthadir]

Sure about that? The last time I counted out the turns, there came a point where you couldn't beat the AI in a race, simply because the cost to them was a turn less in beakers. Your 10% would have to come from civs researching elsewhere, not from beating them.

But that memory is stale, and should be treated as suspect until demonstrated.

The AI bonus is fighting against you working more commerce; further even when the AI slingshots out for religion it works the best tile it has overall; not its highest commerce. You are not so constrained. For HC if you get a riverside phant or an oasis you can work that for 3 additional ; that is 25% increase in your research rate. I did the actual tests on emp where I'm positive that you always win and if I'm recalling the numbers for the AI correctly, you should be able to win on Immort as well.

Unless there is some rounding mechanism I'm missing that should mean you beat a normal AI start with Myst.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The AI bonus is fighting against you working more commerce; further even when the AI slingshots out for religion it works the best tile it has overall; not its highest commerce. You are not so constrained. For HC if you get a riverside phant or an oasis you can work that for 3 additional ; that is 25% increase in your research rate. I did the actual tests on emp where I'm positive that you always win and if I'm recalling the numbers for the AI correctly, you should be able to win on Immort as well.

Unless there is some rounding mechanism I'm missing that should mean you beat a normal AI start with Myst.

Huh, looks like you are right - my best guess is that I previously was looking at the Myst - Financial leaders only.

If I'm getting the mechanic right, the AI researches at Noble, so Meditation is 104 beakers. The tech is 130 beakers on Immortal, and 135 on Deity. If you start with 12 commerce out of the gate, you reach 135 beakers on turn 9 (12 + 1 + 20% for Myst); exactly the amount you need to tie a Noble researcher with 9 commerce per turn.

As ties are resolved in turn order, and the human player usually takes the first slot, it's doable... so long as all of the AI researching the same tech lack that critical 10th coin (which drops research time to 8 turns, and you are sunk).

I have no idea what the probability of that extra coin would be in practice.

 

[obsolete]

As ties are resolved in turn order, and the human player usually takes the first slot...

I'm curious now, when does the human not get the first slot here...

Anyhow, IIRC immortal AI's also get some bonus techs, I'm not sure of the exact ones, but care should be taken not to ignore any 20% research bonuses some may get.

 

[ainglis]

Founding an early religion can help with happiness limits. Consider: you have an isolated start with say one other civ on your landmass. They don't found any religions. Neither do you. You won't meet any other leaders until caravels. Happiness can become a bit of a problem, especially at harder levels. The same applies to a completely isolated start.

I'm not a particularly strong player, but this has happened to me a couple of times, usually causing my economy to take a nosedive. The fact that this hasn't been mentioned already suggests that this isn't as big a problem as I think.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm curious now, when does the human not get the first slot here...

Scenarios. Generate a game, and save off the world builder file. Return to main menu, and start a scenario (you should find that the file you just saved is available near the bottom of the menu). You'll get your choice of the playable leaders (by default, that's all of them).

If you now choose one of the leaders near the bottom of the list, start the game, and jump to world builder, you'll find that where you have only a settler, the leaders that ahead of you in the list have cities.

From this I conclude the other civs are getting a turn earlier in the year than you are. I'm not certain though.

I had thought that you could also arrange this with a custom game, just by moving your entry out of the top row, replacing it with an AI civ. But my attempts at doing that were foiled by the interface.

 

[Shrimp_toast]

as an experiment I am playing a game with Huyana to figure out how useful the early religions are.

I successfully founded 6 of 7 missing out on budhism to monty, in retrospect (having read this thread) I should maybe have gone for meditation first.

The only real advantage has come from malicously spreading confucianism to a limited number of close rivals to leave them isolated in the religous wars ... this worked out rather nicely with everyone ganging up on the isolated civ.

However getting hinduism and monotheism basically set me back _a lot_ I'm winning easily and all, but my power rating was low (0.6-0.8 in most cases) through the early - mid section of the game as I struggled to overcome the effects of not growing the capital to exploit plants on the river 2F rather than 3 meant slow worker at the outset.

Then building missionaries in the early game to maximise the effect of the religion set me back when I should have been rexing and spaming quehchas

Delayed BW while I got monotheism / wheel / pottery also set me back.

In conclusion playing as noble I have never not got confusianism (and philosophy), my economy suffered until 800 AD as a result of messing around with these early religions compared to the economy I have if I ignore them and go straight for CoL.

I usually find that confucianism comes early enough that I can get some civs to take it up for diplomatic bonuses, and, from this experiment building missionaries to spread the early religions to make them worth the effort makes a mess of your economy.

 

[GoodGame]

Religion is only needed if you're developing vertically. Early development is situational, but usually horizontal, so less needed. And if you're on a crowded map, religious diffusion may be easier than researching it yourself.

And I'd say early REXing >> founding a religion except when your situation bottlenecks you geographically that you're forced into developing vertically.

 

[Artichoker]

It might be a worthwhile gamble if you already have all the worker techs to fulfill your immediate needs, and you aren't in a hurry to get Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry.

The window of opportunity for this to happen, however, is very rare for almost all of the leaders and civilizations.

 

[Jazzmail]

Early religion if, either a worker tech or fishing and the appropriate tile is available right at the start of the game and I start with mysticism and a coin tile.

Taoism may become a priorty if nobody else on my continent founds a religion.

 

[brianb1974]

Here's a question for someone who crunches the numbers:

Supose you have the option of settling on riverside dye or spice or silk something like that. If you are financial, that gives your city plot an extra two commerce. But doing so is usually going to cost you an extra turn before settling (since those resources are under jungles and forests usually).

Do you make up the lost turn and win the religion race? This is going to depend heavily not only on level but also on speed.

I run into this situation from time to time. Does anyone else do it and settle on the extra commerce.

 

[mirthadir]

as an experiment I am playing a game with Huyana to figure out how useful the early religions are.

I successfully founded 6 of 7 missing out on budhism to monty, in retrospect (having read this thread) I should maybe have gone for meditation first.

The only real advantage has come from malicously spreading confucianism to a limited number of close rivals to leave them isolated in the religous wars ... this worked out rather nicely with everyone ganging up on the isolated civ.

However getting hinduism and monotheism basically set me back _a lot_ I'm winning easily and all, but my power rating was low (0.6-0.8 in most cases) through the early - mid section of the game as I struggled to overcome the effects of not growing the capital to exploit plants on the river 2F rather than 3 meant slow worker at the outset.

Then building missionaries in the early game to maximise the effect of the religion set me back when I should have been rexing and spaming quehchas

Delayed BW while I got monotheism / wheel / pottery also set me back.

In conclusion playing as noble I have never not got confusianism (and philosophy), my economy suffered until 800 AD as a result of messing around with these early religions compared to the economy I have if I ignore them and go straight for CoL.

I usually find that confucianism comes early enough that I can get some civs to take it up for diplomatic bonuses, and, from this experiment building missionaries to spread the early religions to make them worth the effort makes a mess of your economy.

Most likely not, when I nabbed all 7 on immort I just got stupidly lucky; HC had some nasty event nerf him and he went Poly first (which I also did as I was going for 6/7ths of the religion in the game and hoping for some obscure AI to found the the 7th). Just because founding all 7 can be done, doesn't mean it should be done. Unless you get extremely lucky you will not get all seven and stand good odds of losing both med and poly.

The value of Confu or Christianity is entirely map determined; I've gotten the Christian shrine up to +35 on a standard map without ever building a missionary. All of us heathens went Christian and the war monger (Shaka, I think) was two AIs away from me. Dropping in the CoN early let me get good spread without ever burning time on missionaries.

More interesting are those times where the AI has no religion when you oracle one. That is always a fun decision, do you nerf long term diplomacy in order to get a hard cash return?


bb74:
I don believe so. Losing one turn loses you a full turn worth of palace ; it might work for a Poly race or if you have a long time before you can improve tiles (i.e. the infamous starting techs of fishing/myst where your only BFC resources are cows and sugar).

 

[pi-r8]

So I just tried this out on emperor, and i realized that founding an early religion is by FAR the easiest way to get Tokugawa friendly with you. And he's a loyal friend, since everyone else hates him

 

[Flying Pig]

It can make a lot of money if done right - and it's cool to have Hindusim founded in India and stuff. I tend of found Confucianism, but only so I can get Caste System and courthouses

 

[troytheface]

if the religion matches the color scheme of the civ it is worth it- if it does not then it is not - according to most venn diagram studies.

Fact- America+Hinduism = benefit
Fact- Aztecs +Islam = benefit
Fact- Saladin + Hinduism = Benefit

orange and reddish civs need to go for buddahism or confucionism fro the full benefit.

 

[Flying Pig]

On a related note, but not quite the same, I feel really annoyed if I am Saladin without Islam (because someone on another continent got it) or something else, especially with hte theocratical leaders.

 

[champ82]

Founding a religion is fantastic. I usually do it but not always. Most of the time it’s with an Oracle COL slingshot.

It’s the economy stupid. I don’t necessarily convert to my religion. It’s all about the shrine. I’m not talking about some involved complex religious economy. I’m talking about a shrine that can make you money. Spread it to yourself, spread it to neighbors. Make money, make culture.
I love shrines not only because of the benefits but also because I don’t have to decide which city is my money city. The shrine city is. This city’s job is always to make money. What the Heroic Epic is for war, this city is for the economy. Settle great merchants and priests. Build all the cash multipliers. Build cottages. Build missionaries (for your founded religion.)

Missionaries are expensive early game. No rush to spread your founded religion if it’s not your adopted one. At my level I couldn’t hope to spread it to everyone on my continent (well maybe I could, but it seems risky.) But if you can make it take off for one civ, then everyone will hate that one, making it easier pickings to take over.

Another reason to found a religion – I think I posted this story like 3 times before but oh well. I was Brenus, founded Hinduism (I play with chose religions, so it wasn’t off of polytheism). My neighbors were split Buddhist and something else. I didn’t know which one to convert to (from Hinduism) so I went free religion with Shezwan Paya or whatever. I got along with and could trade techs with both religious factions. Then I had a shot at the AP. Went to Org Religion and built it, then went back to free religion. What’s better than sharing a +2 hammer bonus from every religious building? Being the only civ who does. OK obviously a few others had a few Hindu cities but you get my point hopefully.

You want COL and/or PHI anyway, might as well get a religion off of it (Prince – Emperor.)

 

[Artichoker]

Wang Kon is Financial and starts with Mysticism. Because he is Protective, researching Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry is not as important.

I may try the early religion strategy using Wang Kon as an experiment.

 

[mirthadir]

Wang Kon is Financial and starts with Mysticism. Because he is Protective, researching Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry is not as important.

I may try the early religion strategy using Wang Kon as an experiment.

Fin only helps for the med (and perhaps poly) if you have a 2 tile to work; I do not believe any Fin AI has myst/fishing so that means riverside resources/oasis only. You might get some mileage out of mining gems or whatever, but honestly Izzy has the most reliable shot at Hinduism.

 

[Gumbolt]

Been doing some experiments on this. When you do actually get the religion.

Albeit without the 3 commerce tile on Emperor level.

If you can get Hindu and Jewish religion this opens door to Christianity via the Oracle. (Although COl would give court houses) Also for trading purposes i think COl route works better. Although christianity opens up the AP.

The downside is huge. You dont get BW till past 15000/2000bc. Lets hope Shaka does not have iron or copper or someone is going to get rushed. If you want a shrine you will need SH or oracle or another wonder like temple of artemis for great priest. Although temples open up priests too but more hammers.

In terms of worker techs. If you are not imperialist this will slow you down. Leaders like HRG dont start with mining or wheel. So a settler straight off is obvious. Well what is the worker going to do? I might even worker steal and pray for peace.

Now for Jewish religion you would need masonry. Another non worker tech unless you have marble. I find if you dont research the Jewish religion the Ai will trade Bud/ Jewish religion across the land.

Sometimes if I get all 3 I will wait till one expands to an Ai before I adopt a religion. Christianity and Conf are the first religion to give you a missionary. So a shrine might work better with these.

Overall you can get 3 early religions before 1000bc albeit it the expense of your expansion. Although lack of copper/lead are an issue and trading of alphabet later will be key.

My main problem is getting the religion to actually spread when I have open borders and a shrine. Maybe lacking sailing.