fountain of youth - SUPER IMBALANCED!

[Yrkoslaw]

If you search at all on these forums for runaway ai's you will find plenty pre new wonders.

The runaway ai is in no way shape or form strictly from the new wonders.

If a super expansionist like mongols or greece, there are a few others I forget, are on a continet with someone like ghandi then they will get crushed and the ai will super ics the whole continet without constrait of happiness due to the "we wont fix the problem of bad ai just cheat them with extra everything". That is why they ran away and out teched gold everything you, not from 10 happiness and 1 extra health per turn.

This entire thread is about the wonders being op for the human player, not the computer as they cant utilize the new wonders properly.

Tho I still believe that the new wonders to not give even a human player a IWIN button anymore than the bad ai design has in the pre patch era.

Keep on topic, keep on topic!
Bad AI is one thing, OP Fantasy Wonders are another!

Ok, I am here to reconsider and say that New Wonder aren't OP. They are simply broken - when I click, lets say, "Immortal" difficulity level I want to actualy PLAY Immortal game! But, wooo! I began my game and found El Dorado / Fountain of Sillyness next to me - DIFF level just dropped one level instantly. Restart! RESTART!

But my very first point stay valid - if anyone do not like the new wonders, disable/nefr them manualy. We have the technology xD

 

[southpw11]

I found the fountain of youth in a game I just started recently at around turn 70 or so, and imagine my surprise when I discovered the +10 happiness! I quickly conquered the CS that had it within its borders and got up to +31 happiness! I found it pretty cool, mainly because it parallels real life when countries fight over some extraordinarily valuable resource (like oil). In my game the FOY was with in the borders of a CS that was allied with arabia who I had spent the last 50 turns befriending (since his military was larger than mine). After licking my chops at +10 happiness, I promptly turned my back on my friend from arabia and conquered the CS to get the bonus. Arabia denounced me and then declared on me, and about 30 turns later I took his capital.

Anyway, it does not bother me because it's so rare but then again I'm not a die hard civ guy. If I was serious enough to play the game on higher levels or played MP, I'd disable it I think.

 

[Callonia]

I can agree with you southpw11, I find myself behaving like the AI more now and coveting lands that they own.

I saw that ceredo silver mountain and El Dorado i think it gives 10 culture per turn. It was making me eye their territory more. Where normally I won't even care at all, before this patch, I only wanted to discover the wonders for the happiness bonus, but now after the patch, I find myself paying attention to them.

 

[blind biker]

I found the fountain of youth in a game I just started recently at around turn 70 or so, and imagine my surprise when I discovered the +10 happiness! I quickly conquered the CS that had it within its borders and got up to +31 happiness! I found it pretty cool, mainly because it parallels real life when countries fight over some extraordinarily valuable resource (like oil).

There's something similar in Civ IV (even vanilla had it): it's called... oil. The other valuable resource you'd kill for is iron. And resources that provide happiness are gold, silver, gems, tobacco... (can't remember the rest). Maybe Civ V should have had something similar, instead of FoY.

Since you are one of the few who ran into it: how many units did you upgrade with it?

 

[elprofesor]

I actually run into the FoY in my first Emperor post-patch game. You might think "cool!"
I was playing as Persia.
The AI out-teched me. The AI out-expanded me. The AI doubled my score (all of them!)
The only units I ever built were immortals

But in the end I won a cultural victory! (which I could have turned into a diplomatic victory, and win 3 turns sooner, but when you commit yourself for a certain victory for 300 turns...)

And at the oil remark. Me too, I find it isn't quite as important as it should be.

 

[Yrkoslaw]

I actually run into the FoY in my first Emperor post-patch game. You might think "cool!"
I was playing as Persia.
The AI out-teched me. The AI out-expanded me. The AI doubled my score (all of them!)
The only units I ever built were immortals

But in the end I won a cultural victory! (which I could have turned into a diplomatic victory, and win 3 turns sooner, but when you commit yourself for a certain victory for 300 turns...)

That simply state that you dont used FoY at all That does not rend the OPness of it invalid. +10 happyness and Healing Bonus is great when you are ICS'sing and go for Domination (and in fact, this is the way, as ICS have no drawbacks and all the bonunes in CIV5). The only bonus from FoY you could get when going for Cultural Victory is with Piety "Happyness into Culture" policy.

 

[elprofesor]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to defend the FoY, I was just blaming my bad luck I was playing in a tundra map, everything in my zone was forest, so expansion was a tad difficult.
Saying that I didn't benefit at all from the FoY is saying a bit too much, cause it got me golden ages faster, and 5 culture thanks to that social policy, but it really could have been much more.

 

[Smote]

I agree that fountain of youth isn't huge late game, its just a free Eiffel Tower+typical natural wonder+medic promotion equivalent for every unit

Its early game that it is huge. Starting with 9 extra happiness, vs 20 extra happiness, makes a huge difference in starting strategy and the number of growable cities pre-worker early game (4-5 instead of 2).

 

[Morningcalm]

In the very least, they should include an option to disable the "new natural wonders" in a regular game (Potosi, El Dorado, Fountain of Youth).

 

[Guardian_PL]

In the very least, they should include an option to disable the "new natural wonders" in a regular game (Potosi, El Dorado, Fountain of Youth).

Oh, no. Improving the UI? Think about how much resources would that take in a release in which initially Engineer specialists were giving same amount of hammers as idle citizens or it was more profitable to build&disband an unit than to produce wealth!

I swear, sometimes I cannot fathom who actually made that game is receiving those huge salaries. Seriously, I don't know what the hell devs are doing...

 

[Venereus]

The one time I found the FoY, it was in Japanese land. Yeah, bad omen.

 

[UknowsI]

If you search at all on these forums for runaway ai's you will find plenty pre new wonders.

The runaway ai is in no way shape or form strictly from the new wonders.

If a super expansionist like mongols or greece, there are a few others I forget, are on a continet with someone like ghandi then they will get crushed and the ai will super ics the whole continet without constrait of happiness due to the "we wont fix the problem of bad ai just cheat them with extra everything". That is why they ran away and out teched gold everything you, not from 10 happiness and 1 extra health per turn.

This entire thread is about the wonders being op for the human player, not the computer as they cant utilize the new wonders properly.

Tho I still believe that the new wonders to not give even a human player a IWIN button anymore than the bad ai design has in the pre patch era.

Thanks for the clarification. I assumed that the wonders had helped them start the snowball effect since I had experienced less runaway AI's in my other games after the patch,possibly because of the increased city defence. The human players is of course much better at taking advantage of the wonders which makes it much more imbalanced when a human player gets it.

 

[Zdarg]

Since you are one of the few who ran into it: how many units did you upgrade with it?

I ran into it in a game just a day before this thread was created.
It was 6-7 hexes away from my capitol, so I founded second city there ASAP. I never used healing ability (totally forgot about it, in fact).
Luckily, it was Warlord game (for achievement), so I couldn't lose anyway.

 

[flairin]

Perhaps the Fountain of Youth is a bit imbalanced but I really love it, at least at the King level!! Don't forget that it also helps AI players. So if you have a city next to it, invading units actually have the advantage.

Say for example early on you find it 8 hexes from your capital (when first starting the game). Then send out a settler to build a city next too it as soon as possible. A few turns later you are flirting with war by an AI opponent because they want that city and the benefits of the Natural Wonder. You are swarmed (6-8 enemy troops) and so the only way you could keep the city is by having a Great General build a Citadel, as well as have a garrison of at least 2 soldiers (one preferably an archer). That way 5 of the Hexes are nearly impenetrable (unit garrison on Citadel (1), citadel killing off units on either side (2+3), unable to pass through Natural Wonder (4), another unit stationed on other side of Natural Wonder (5).

On my first attempt I had all of the tools (Great General thanks to Policy of Warrior Code -- thank you 30 bonus culture points -- and the units) but not in the right location. War was declared at around turn 20 and I was easily crushed in that city. Then I retried... the only difference I made was using the General that I was going to war with build the citadel as well placing units in my second city. So strategy was totally changed. At turn 100 they are still warring with me despite my attempts to make peace and despite them not getting close and me killing off their units -- all I need are 2 units to stave them off. At this point (turn 100) am up to 3 cities, no more. Not easy to build more cities when you are at war ... this would only create a new vulnerability. There are two other Civs close to my boarders as well.

Usually at this time I would have gone to war with them and they would be defeated. My theory is that with this Natural Wonder at the higher levels you best build a great defense and wait some time to go on the offensive if you are to claim it.

 

[Smote]

I would have quite an easy time defending the FoY, since my units would heal 4 hp/turn. The extra 10 happiness at the beginning would snowball into an extra 10% literacy by the time they attack. GG.

 

[Celevin]

Oh, no. Improving the UI? Think about how much resources would that take in a release in which initially Engineer specialists were giving same amount of hammers as idle citizens or it was more profitable to build&disband an unit than to produce wealth!

I swear, sometimes I cannot fathom who actually made that game is receiving those huge salaries. Seriously, I don't know what the hell devs are doing...

Honestly man, it's a lot harder than you think to design a game.

Secondly the engineers actually made more sense at 1 hammer considering the difference between a mine and a trading post is 1 hammer compared to 2 gold. In fact most resources in the game follow that mantra. People complained and engineers got changed to 2 production. It's sad because the real fault is in production build times VS gold cost for units/buildings. Once that's fixed, we'll go from engineers being about equal to merchants to them being strictly better.

 

[flairin]

I would have quite an easy time defending the FoY, since my units would heal 4 hp/turn. The extra 10 happiness at the beginning would snowball into an extra 10% literacy by the time they attack. GG.

How would the extra 10 happiness snowball into an exta 10% literacy?? I have not seen where you can manipulate Science, Gold, and Happiness in this game as you could in previous ones (assigning 50%, 10%, 40% for example)

 

[Adam7Eight]

These wonders are a joke. Hands down. They're terrible.

Agreed. The FoY is extremely lame.

That doesn't mean I don't like it when it's in my borders.

 

[Smote]

A 3 city game with fountain of youth will be extremely powerful with both beakers and hammers since all of them have fairly unrestricted growth. So farms for all, maybe a boomerang civil service if river heavy, and no need for collosseum until after library/NC/granary/watermill. Usually 4 luxury, so 19 happiness to play with before luxury improvements (Size 8 cap, Size 4 2nd, Size 1 3rd)

After improvements, can grow unrestricted to size 16 capital, size 9 second, size 8 third without need of collosseum. This allows hammers to be used for granaries/watermills/libraries to grow extremely fast and get science. This will allow 10% literacy gain over every other civ.

Follow with collossums and univs and its already GG.

Can probably make 70 beakers without universities with this, and probably about 120 by turn 70-80 after finishing universities. This is very good for a game that is not accelerated by AI gold from selling luxuries. It's kinda like playing on settler or chieftain.

 

[flairin]

Can probably make 70 beakers without universities with this, and probably about 120 by turn 70-80 after finishing universities. This is very good for a game that is not accelerated by AI gold from selling luxuries. It's kinda like playing on settler or chieftain.

Thanks for pointing out... I stopped at turn 120 after making it to Renaissance Era. Beakers only at 38. Capital at size 6, second city at 4, and third city at 2 with 7 happiness and 0 gold per turn.