Frankish wars upon the pagan people of the East

daft

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What religion did the Saxons observe? Was the pagan Saxon language similar(or the same) to the Frankish one, did the Franks communicate between themselves in (old?)German language, or in Latin? Did the Franks fight the Avars?, if yes, what was their(Avar) origin? When did Magyars replace the Avars? were the Magyars pagan at first as well? what religion was it, polytheistic? Did Wend Slavs all follow the same polytheistic Slavic religion? were there linguistic differences between their tribes? Is it true that not only the Danes raided the coastal (Baltic) Slavic territories on regular basis but the Slavs also raided on them back? How numerous were the Wend Slavs and what different names of Tribes were they known as? were they often at war with each other? How did the Emperor Otto defeat the Danes and their Wend Slav allies? Why did the Poles ally with the Franks against Wend Slavs? Is the name Venedi synonymous with the Wend(West) Slavians?
Finally, read a historically accurate tale about a certain Frankish margrave, Gero, who invited a group of Slavic Chieftains to a banquet(festival) of some sort, after the chieftain's arrival he had them massacred instead of entertained. Right away reminded me of the movie "Braveheart" .
 
What religion did the Saxons observe?

Germanic paganism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_paganism

Was the pagan Saxon language similar(or the same) to the Frankish one

They spoke Old Saxon, which was - together with for example Old Frisian and Old English - one of Ingvaeonic (North Sea Germanic) languages, and therefore it was different than Frankish, which was one of Istvaeonic languages (today this group includes Low Franconian languages, such as Dutch).

did the Franks communicate between themselves in (old?)German language, or in Latin?

Frankish language was more closely related to modern Dutch (and other modern Low Franconian languages), than to modern German. I suppose that many Franks also knew how to speak Latin (or rather Gallo-Roman languages spoken by majority of their subjects), however, Charles the Great probablyu could not even read and write - as chronicler Einhard suggested - so I suppose that he also could not speak Latin very well.

Franks themselves emerged as a tribal union, consisting of several federated tribes. Probably some of those tribes were not even Germanic, but Istvaeonic elements were numerically dominant in the Frankish federation and thus their lingua franca was something like "Old Dutch".

If we want to apply modern categories to Franks, then the original Franks were definitely more "Dutch" than "German".

Did the Franks fight the Avars?, if yes, what was their(Avar) origin?

They fought against Avars and Avars fought against them. Avar origin is disputed, probably Avars was a federation of many tribes and peoples (such ethnic conglomerates established as the result of many different peoples uniting their strength, were very common during the Migration Period and during the Dark Ages).

Probably Avars consisted of between two and four main ethnic components and some smaller ones. Among those two - four main ethnic components were: Iranian, Turkic, maybe also Altaic (three dominant ethno-linguistic groups in Western Eurasian steppes at that time) and possibly also Slavic. Little is known about the language used by Avars, but several sources mention words from "Avar dictionary" which are Slavic words.

Some historians suggested that Slavic was the lingua franca among Avars.

It is as well probable that Avars - or rather some of their components - spoke Caucasian languages, because today there is still a nation of Avars, who speak Avar language - and this modern language is one of Caucasian languages (a separate language family, distinct from both Indo-European and Altaic languages). They live mostly in Dagestan, which is part of the Russian Federation - many of them also live in other parts of Russia and in Azerbaijan. But it is not certain how much related these people are to Ancient-Medieval Avars. It is also possible that they are totally different people, who adopted ethnonym "Avars" from those original Avars.

It should be noted that out of three main ethno-linguistic components inhabiting Western Eurasian steppes in Late Antiquity - Iranian, Altaic and Turkic - Iranian was the oldest one. Iranian-speakers were originally White people of Caucasoid race, mostly R1a haplogroup, and they dominated Western Eurasian steppes in Ancient times. Many of them were tribes of very light, Northern Caucasoid phenotypes (for example the Alans - who were a tribal union and part of the Sarmatians - were described by Ancient sources as people with mostly blonde hair). Only in Late Antiquity invaders from Eastern Eurasia, such as the Huns (who were probably Altaic-speaking) started to migrate west, invading anthropologically Caucasoid populations. When it comes to the Huns - anthropological research suggests, that they were already people of mixed Mongoloid-Caucasoid features when they arrived in Eastern Europe. Therefore, they must have been interbreeding with, absorbing or assimilating Caucasoid populations already in West-Central Asia.

One of reasons why geneticists today have problems with finding traces of major migrations from historic times (such as the Late Antiquity or the Middle Ages) is most certainly the fact that migrating group were not genetically homogenous, but were themselves already conglomerates of many peoples and tribes, united by common leadership (elites) and goals. Goths, Avars, etc. were not closely related tribes or clans, but rather mixed federations, consisting of many tribes which almost certainly were of various ethnic backgrounds. Already during their migrations they were absorbing further groups of various peoples, or at least taking women as war booty, i.e. mating partners, and killing or enslaving men from those who didn't want to join or had nothing good to offer.

When did Magyars replace the Avars? were the Magyars pagan at first as well?

According to historian Adrienne Koermendy, Magyar migration - which ultimately ended in Central Europe - lasted for few thousand years. They originated in Western Siberia and migrated at first southward, and later westward, during their migration establishing close ties with many Turkic tribes, ties which left traces in Hungarian language (which is not Turkic but Uralic) and culture. Probably Hungarians adopted their nomadic steppe lifestyle from those Turkic peoples.

Migrating Magyars finally invaded and settled in the Carpathian Basin in years 895 - 907. By the time of Magyar invasion, the Avar Khaganate no longer existed (it collapsed early in the 800s after numerous wars against Franks, Slavs and Byzantines). Avar capital city - known as Ring (located between the Danube and the Tisa River, in what is now Vojvodina) declined as well. However, descendants of Avars - to some extent assimilated by or mixed with other neighbouring ethnic groups - still lived in the Carpathian Basins when Magyars invaded. And undoubtedly those Avars who survived the invasion, became later assimilated.

But Hungarians came nearly one hundred years after the final collapse of the Avar Khaganate.

In 907 Hungarians secured their control over western part of the Carpathian Basin, as the result of the battle of Brezalauspurc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pressburg

what religion was it, polytheistic? Did Wend Slavs all follow the same polytheistic Slavic religion? were there linguistic differences between their tribes? Is it true that not only the Danes raided the coastal (Baltic) Slavic territories on regular basis but the Slavs also raided on them back? How numerous were the Wend Slavs and what different names of Tribes were they known as? were they often at war with each other? How did the Emperor Otto defeat the Danes and their Wend Slav allies? Why did the Poles ally with the Franks against Wend Slavs? Is the name Venedi synonymous with the Wend(West) Slavians?
Finally, read a historically accurate tale about a certain Frankish margrave, Gero, who invited a group of Slavic Chieftains to a banquet(festival) of some sort, after the chieftain's arrival he had them massacred instead of entertained. Right away reminded me of the movie "Braveheart" .

This LATER (now I have to go).
 
At that period, the differences in dialects between different Slavic speaking populations were basically insignificant. Perhaps the greatest testimony to that is the fact that both the Glagolithic alphabet (created especially for the language we now know as Old Church Slavonic) and the Cyrillic script (created for the same purpose, but derived from both the Glagolitsa and the Greek alphabet to facilitate writing and correspondence) managed to spread throughout the Slavic world within the lifespan of their creators saints Cyril and Methodius and their most noted students. So, basically, in about two-three generations you have Bulgaria and Kievan Rus, the two major centralized empires with predominantly Slavic populations, officially using the Cyrillic alphabet and OCS as a liturgical, literary and administrative language.

EDIT:
Of course, I forgot some very important things that are quite relevant to your main question. The first place where Cyril and Methodius began implementing the Glagolithic alphabet and performing liturgy in OCS (a revolutionary act for the standarts of the 9th century) was Moravia, a Slavic polity with only roughly determined whereabouts, which was under serious pressure from the Franks. Moravia had recently accepted Christianity from Rome and Frankish priests and missionaries there used Latin, thus not only reserving control of the church for themselves, but also to a degree suppressing the Slavic language. Cyril and Methodius were first sent to Moravia by the emperor in Constantinople on a request by Moravian ruler Rostislav (IIRC that's his name) who wanted to gain some cultural independence and consolidate his state. Eventually Moravia succumbed to political and military pressure, Cyril and Methodius' students were expelled and Latin was reinstated.
 
Did Wend Slavs all follow the same polytheistic Slavic religion?

Yes, they followed Slavic Paganism. But there were some differences in deities, spirits and demons between various tribes. Just like in Ancient Greece each city-state had slightly different beliefs and favoured other deities than their neighbours.

were there linguistic differences between their tribes?

Between individual tribes of Wends belonging to the same ethnic group, there were only differences in dialects (but they were all mutually intelligible). On the other hand, there could be somehow larger differences between Sorbian and Polabian languages. But still those differences were rather not too big, as already Mize pointed out in his post above.

Is it true that not only the Danes raided the coastal (Baltic) Slavic territories on regular basis but the Slavs also raided on them back?

Yes, and during the 11th and the 12th centuries Wends actually took the initiative in those raids, and during that period they were raiding Danish coasts more frequently, and inflicted greater damage than the enemy. They even raided western Danish coasts (for example in 1043 they raided Aarhus, Helgenoes, then sailed around Jutland into the Eider River and attacked Hedeby). Troublesomeness of Pagan Slavic pirates was one of reasons why Crusades were later called against them.

How numerous were the Wend Slavs

Probably anything from 500,000 upwards. "Around half a million" is IMO the correct order of magnitude.

and what different names of Tribes were they known as?

There were about 60 different Slavic tribes living in what is today Eastern Germany, but this includes matryoshka-like structures (smaller tribes existing within larger tribes; major tribes divided for several minor ones, etc.). But they basically belonged to one of two major ethnic groups - Polabians or Sorbs. Polabians consisted of two major federations of tribes - the Grand Duchy of the Obotrites and the Holy Union of the Veleti - as well as some other tribes, who were not members of those unions (or were members only temporarily). One of the most powerful among such "non-associated" tribes were the Rujani, who inhabited the island of Ruegen, neighbouring continental coastal area and probably also the island of Usedom.

were they often at war with each other?

Yes, too often. Their relative lack of unity (alliances were usually temporary, tribes and city-states were joining and then leaving federations) and relative decentralization of power (political system, in which priests, councils, warlords, merchants and princes each played their roles), together with stubborn rejection of Christianity, were among the causes of their demise.

How did the Emperor Otto defeat the Danes and their Wend Slav allies?

Which episode exactly do you mean?

Why did the Poles ally with the Franks against Wend Slavs?

And why in earlier times Pagan Wend Slavs participated as Holy Roman Empire's allies in wars against Poland (for example during the Polish-German wars of 1003 - 1018)? "Good Christians" - Germans - using Pagan allies against Poland.

In 1147 the Pope called a Crusade against Wend Slavs, so Polish dukes - being Christian rulers - had to participate, even though they did so only reluctantly, and barely even crossed the Oder River. Uniting with Danes and Saxons against Wends in 1147 was not in Polish interest, but offending the Pope was usually a bad idea and loyalty to Christendom had to be shown. Polish forces crossed the Oder, "converted" some villages and towns, etc., and returned back to their own territory.

Is the name Venedi synonymous with the Wend(West) Slavians?

Yes, but only since the 6th century AD. There were several distinct peoples called "Venedi" (or alike) before that.

Finally, read a historically accurate tale about a certain Frankish margrave, Gero, who invited a group of Slavic Chieftains to a banquet(festival) of some sort, after the chieftain's arrival he had them massacred instead of entertained. Right away reminded me of the movie "Braveheart".

Yes, this story is true (described by Saxon chronicler Widukind). The number of massacred princes and nobles was 30. It seems that it was during peace negotiations after a battle in which united forces of the Obotrites defeated the German army, and killed their commander named Haiko. Gero failed to kill enemy leaders in battle so he used deception.
 
There were about 60 different Slavic tribes living in what is today Eastern Germany, but this includes matryoshka-like structures (smaller tribes existing within larger tribes; major tribes divided for several minor ones, etc.). But they basically belonged to one of two major ethnic groups - Polabians or Sorbs. Polabians consisted of two major federations of tribes - the Grand Duchy of the Obotrites and the Holy Union of the Veleti - as well as some other tribes, who were not members of those unions (or were members only temporarily). One of the most powerful among such "non-associated" tribes were the Rujani, who inhabited the island of Ruegen, neighbouring continental coastal area and probably also the island of Usedom.

Although the conquest of all Slavic tribes in what is now Eastern Germany was completed by the mid-1200s, their language survived much longer.

Map below shows surviving enclaves of Polabian Slavic-speakers (Sorbs and Pomeranians are NOT included in this map) in the 1500s and the 1600s. Map comes from historian Adam Sengebusch, author of e.g. "Wspomnienia o Słowianach Połabskich" ("Memoirs about Polabian Slavs"). The map shows only Polabian majority areas in the 1500s and the 1600s (areas Germanized already before 1500 are not shown), but I added also the ethnic boundary in the 800s (red line):



Large version of this map (spoiler):

Spoiler :

The last Polabian-speakers, who resisted Germanization for the longest time, were the Drevani people (a branch of Obotrites) of the region called Drawehn - ironically this region is located to the west of the Elbe River (!). The Drevani Slavic language became extinct around year 1800. But already at that time Drevani language was heavily "contaminated" by German words - almost 40% of Drevani vocabulary during the 1700s were loanwords from German.

Drawehn, westernmost region in Germany where you could still hear Slavic speech in the 1700s (and they were subjects of King George I in 1698 - 1727):



Drevani language was the last of surviving indigenous Polabian languages. But it did not manage to survive into the 19th century - all of its speakers became Germanized by ca. 1800. Since then, Upper Sorbian and Lower Sorbian are the only surviving indigenous Slavic languages in Eastern Germany.

That said, the Duchy of Mecklenburg was ruled by indigenous Slavic dynasty until 1918, but of course they no longer spoke Slavic language.

Friedrich Franz IV Mecklenburg (the last Grand Duke of Mecklenburg until 1918, direct descendant of 12th century Slavic Dukes, Niklot and Pribislav):



Niklot and Pribislav:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pribislav_of_Mecklenburg

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Frankish conquest of Pagan Saxons lasted only for 33 years - from 772 to 804. It was brutal and bloody, with thousands of Saxons being enslaved and relocated westward, but soon after being conquered and forcibly Christianized, Saxons themselves - together with other Germans - became aggressors against still Pagan and "barbarian" peoples living to the east of them. German conquest of Polabian Slavs lasted much longer - and their resistance against "Drang Nach Osten" definitely slowed down German advance eastward, and helped Poland - which emerged as a realm behind the Oder River during the 900s - to consolidate its existence as a state organism. But first of all Poland voluntarily adopted Christianity, while Polabians were refusing to become Christians until the end.

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On the ruins of the Holy Union of the Veleti and of the Grand Duchy of the Obotrites, emerged Brandenburg - predecessor of Prussia:

Map below shows Brandenburgian expansion 1134 - 1340:

Map: "German [Askanian Dynasty; House of Luxembourg; and the Teutonic Order] political expansion in 12th to 14th centuries":



Brandenburgian borders around 1320:



Brandenburgian borders in 1600 and expansion to 1688:



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The end of Drevani Slavic language in Drawehn:

It is unclear when exactly that language became extinct. Above I wrote, that around year 1800 - and this is the most likely date.

But there are some rumours, which suggest that the language was in use even longer:

- According to some unclear sources, in 1798 died last person who could say a prayer "Pater Noster" in this language.
- In 1809 "Vollständiges Lüneburgisch-Wendisches Wörterbuch" (dictionary of Drevani language) by Johann Heinrich Jugler was published.
- In 1825 newspaper "Neues vaterländisches Archiv" from Lueneburg reported that some peasants could still speak this language.
- In 1845 another source reported that in most remote areas of Drawehn some old people could still speak this language.
- In 2nd half of the 19th century a pharmacist from Salzwedel reported that he met a man who said he learned Drevani language as a child.
- In the population census of 1890 still as many as 500 people from Kreis Lüchow declared "Wendisch" as their "mother tongue".
- In 1899 a letter written in Drevani language was delivered to a local researcher.
- Etnographer Fr. Tetzner in 1902 found out that in Küsten local village mayor was still using some Drevani sentences or words.

But even if those rumours were true, the language became mostly dead by 1800.

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And here the extent of Slavic Sorbian language in South-Eastern Germany over the centuries:



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Map posted below shows westernmost Slavic groups around year 800 (lighter red boundary shows territories already by that time partially De-Slavicized, or never fully Slavic - it is not certain whether those territories were fully Slavic or always ethnically mixed - individual Slavic groups extended even more westward than that line, for example a few groups of migrating Slavs settled along the Rhine River, but of course they were never majority of population there):



The peak of Slavic expansion was in the 1st half and mid of the 700s, when some of migrating Slavic groups went even as far as the Rhine River. During the 2nd half of the 700s and during the 800s, Frankish expansion already started to push the Slavs eastward. Especially after the conquest of Saxons (804).

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Slavic presence can also be found in names of localities in Eastern Germany. For example typical (but not the only ones) variants of toponyms of Slavic origin, are names with -ow/au, -in or -itz or -itze/itza suffixes, such as: Spandau, Krakow am See, Schwerin, Berlin, Chemnitz, Dönitz, Steglitz, etc.

For example below is a map indicating areas in Germany where you can find settlements with names ending with suffix -itz:



This one is in Poland (original Slavic name above, Germanized name below):

 
Wow! Thank you sir(Domen)! You sure are an expert in this(and several other) historical fields.
Your (and Mize's) posts, clearly show in detail how it all played out, out there, east and west of the Labe, all those years ago.
Read some material regarding the matter, never in such a detail though. Thought it being imperative mentioning the real (Holiness) of the Holy Roman (Frankish) Empire, the mostly unknown and bloody history of the Frankish conquests in Central Europe, hidden underneath the name of the faith. Fact is, countless thousands of people (the Veleti nation by itself was said to have consisted of over a hundred towns within their territory- taking into consideration that population of a walled town during that time must have consisted of around at least a thousand people) were killed and enslaved by the "Holy" empire.
It is a history rarely realized and spoken about in the Western historical circles, perhaps because of the lack of knowledge or the "difficulty" of the subject.

Is it true Berlin is in fact a (wend) Slavic city(town) name, not a Germanic one? I've declared this thesis once somewhere and immediately faced strong criticism from those "in the know".

Ps. Wrote about the Danish and Wend Slav alliance and (at first successful) war against the Franks, later on they were defeated by the great Frankish Emperor Otto and his army.
 
Yes Berlin is a name of Slavic origin (meaning "little swamp"). There was also a Slavic town there.

Or even several Slavic settlements in area of today's city.

Several of Berlin's districts - such as Pankow, Kopenick, etc. - also have names of Slavic origin.

taking into consideration that population of a walled town during that time must have consisted of around at least a thousand people

I would say that an average Early Medieval Slavic town (grod) probably had closer to ca. 600 inhabitants.

Something like this was probably an average, small town or "stronghold" (grod / gard / grad):



But as you say, there was also number of cities which were much bigger - several thousand inhabitants each.

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Some of the most important cities (main grods) of Polabian and Sorbian Slavs in Eastern Germany were:

Original Slavic name / German name:

- Hawolin / Havelberg (main god worshipped by this city: Yarovit); constructed in the 9th century; captured by Crusaders in 1147

Hawolin was capital of Neletice tribe (35)

- Brennabor / Brandenburg; founded in the 8th century, surrounded by rampart in the 9th century; captured by Crusaders in 1157

Brennabor was capital of Havolane aka Hevelli (4)

- Arkona / Arkona (main god worshipped: Svetovid); surrounded by mighty rampart and moat in the 10th century; captured by Danes+Saxons+Pomeranians in 1168

Arkona was capital (and one of two main grods) of the Rujani (23)

- Raciborz / Ratzeburg; constructed in late 10th century along two main trade routes (Bardowick-Wagria and Hamburg-Mechlin); captured by Saxons in 1140

Raciborz was capital of the Polabi (36)

- Mechlin / Mecklenburg; fortified town since the 9th century (open settlement existed already before that), along trade routes from Elbe River to Baltic Sea and from Hamburg to mouth of Oder River; important centre of slave trade (those slaves were mostly Danish people captured by Slavic pirates) in the 12th century; abandoned and burned by its own inhabitants in 1160

Mechlin was capital (and together with Zwierzyn one of two main cities) of the Reregi (37)

- Zwierzyn or Swarzyn / Schwerin; (main god: Svarog) mentioned as Zuarin in 1018, existed at least since the 10th century; captured by Saxons under the Henry the Lion i 1160

- Starigard / Oldenburg in Holstein; fortified town since the 9th century (non-fortified Slavic settlement in this place existed already since the 7th century), Adam of Bremen in 1076 described it in Latin: "Aldinborg civitas magna Sclavorum, qui Waigri di****ur, sita est iuxta mare, quod Balticum sive Barbarum dicitur, itinere die ab Hammaburg" ("Starigard a great city of Slavs, called Wagri, which is located near the sea called Baltic or Barbarian, one day travel from Hamburg").

Starigard was capital of Wagri (11). Wagri were old enemies of Saxons. In 798 in the battle of River Sventana (German name: Schwentine) Slavic Wagri allied with Franks defeated Nordalbingians (Northern Saxons).

- Pozdawilk / Pasewalk; first capital of Wkrzanie (or Ukranie), Latinized name: Vuucri (5)

- Przęcław / Prenzlau; second capital of Vuucri (5), located at Lake Ueckersee. Its "golden age" was during the 12th century, but not much is known about it. River Uecker is the German name for River Wkra or Ukra, named after the Slavic Vuucri.

- Malchów / Malchow; constructed in the 10th century; captured in the 2nd half of the 12th century

- Radogoszcz (Retra) / Radigast (Rethra); main god worshipped: Svarozic, also known as Radogost (he was son of Svarog); besieged by Germans in 1068 but siege was lifted; destroyed in ca. 1128 by forces of Emperor Lothar III, exact location of Radogoszcz is unknown (some archaeologists and historians identify it with remains of a Slavic fortified town found in Gross Raden at the Binnensee Lake; some others point at other locations)

Retra was capital of the Redarii (41)

- Roztok / Rostock; located near the Baltic Sea. Described by Adam of Bremen and Helmold of Bosau. Constructed in the 10th century. In the 1120s - after a siege which lasted for 5 weeks (which testifies to size and powerful fortifications of Roztok) captured by Obotrite Prince Sventipolk (son of Henry the Nakonid, who was son of Saint Gottschalk). After that the city declined and became partially depopulated during the 2nd half of the 12th century (perhaps in the 1160s), but later it started to develop again following the charter on Luebeck Recht by King Valdemar I of Denmark on 24 June 1214 and the influx of German settlers (it's quite confusing to me why Danish Kings usually brought German settlers to their cities, and not Danish settlers - perhaps Danish people were mostly rural and in general not very numerous at that time).

Roztok was one of cities (probably capital )of the Chyżyni - Chizzini (40)

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And several more cities - maybe I will mention them later.

Slavic cities such as Wolin and Szczecin (Stettin) already belonged to Pomeranian - not Polabian - tribes.

Slavic Szczecin and Wolin were described by sources as very big (both had at least 5,000 and perhaps up to 10,000 people).

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Map showing location of tribes mentioned above (with numbers and Latinized names):



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Slavic peoples mentioned by "Bavarian Geographer" (written in Regensburg in ca. 845) and identified by historians as probably living in this area:



Plus number of "civitates" (see below) each of them had according to that document:

1 (Nortabtrezi = Obotrites) - 53 "civitates"
2 (Uuilci) - 95 "civitates" and 3 "regiones" (95 fortified towns and 3 provinces ???)
3 (Linaa) - 7
4 to 6 (Bethenici & Smeldingon & Morizani) - 11
7 (Hehfeldi) - 8
8 (Surbi) - 50
9 (Talaminzi) - 13
10 (Beheimare) - 15
11 (Marharii) - 40
14 (Osterabtrezi = probably "eastern Obotrites" = Veleti - it was a union of tribes, not one tribe) - 100
15 (Miloxi) - 67
48 (Uuislane) - ???
49 (Sleenzane) - 15
50 (Lunsizi) - 30
51 (Dadosesani) - 20
52 (Milzane) - 30
53 (Besunzane) - 2
54 (Uerizane) - 10
55 (Fraganeo) - 40
56 (Lupiglaa) - 30
57 (Opolini) - 20
58 (Golensizi) - 5

Total: 661+ "civitates" (but whether it means fortified towns & strongholds / forts or some territorial divisions, or population units, is uncertain).

This is for territories of Eastern Germany + western strip of Poland + Bohemia.

=============================

And here is the original text of "Bavarian Geographer":

Note that this document lists only tribes about which Imperial spies - "military intelligence" of the HRE - had information. And this is the reason why most of tribes listed by this document lived near the borders of the HRE. Simply Imperial spies had not long enough "range" and didn't know much about peoples living in Slavic areas located further east (for example German spies in 845 AD failed to identify the tribe of Polans, who 100 years later founded Poland):



Descriptio civitatum et regionum ad septentrionalem plagam Danubii:

(1) Isti sunt qui propinquiores resident finibus Danaorum, quos vocant Nortabtrezi, ubi regio, in qua sunt civitates LIII per duces suos partite.
(2) Uuilci, in qua civitates XCV et regiones IIII.
(3) Linaa est populus, qui habet civitates VII.
(4-6) Prope illis resident, quos vocant Bethenici et Smeldingon et Morizani, qui habent civitates XI.
(7) Iuxta illos sunt, qui vocantur Hehfeldi, qui habent civitates VIII.
(8) Iuxta illos est regio, que vocatur Surbi, in qua regione plures sunt, que habent civitates L.
(9) Iuxta illos sunt quos vocant Talaminzi, qui habent civitates XIII.
(10) Beheimare, in qua sunt civitates XV.
(11) Marharii habent civitates XL.
(12) Uulgarii regio est inmensa et populus multus habens civitates V, eo quod mutitudo magna ex eis sit et non sit eis opus civitates habere.
(13) Est populus quem vocant Merehanos, ipsi habent civitates XXX.
Iste sunt regiones, que terminant in finibus nostris.

Isti sunt, qui iuxta istorum fines resident:

(14) Osterabtrezi, in qua civitates plus quam C sunt.
(15) Miloxi, in qua civitates LXVII.
(16) Phesnuzi habent civitates LXX.
(17) Thadesi plus quam CC urbes habent.
(18) Glopeani, in qua civitates CCCC aut eo amplius.
(19) Zuireani habent civitates CCCXXV.
(20) Busani habent civitates CCXXXI.
(21) Sittici regio inmensa populis et urbibus munitissimis.
(22) Stadici, in qua civitates DXVI populousque infinitus.
(23) Sebbirozi habent civitates XC.
(24) Unlizi populus multus civitates CCCCXVIII.
(25) Neriuani habent civitates LXXVIII.
(26) Attorozi habent civitates CXLVIII, populus ferocissimus.
(27) Eptaradici habent civitates CCLXIII.
(28) Uuilerozi habent civitates CLXXX.
(29) Zabrozi habent civitates CCXII.
(30) Znetalici habent civitates LXXIIII.
(31) Aturezani habent civitates CIIII.
(32) Chozirozi habent civitates CCL.
(33) Lendizi habent civitates XCVIII.
(34) Thafnezi habent civitates CCLVII.
(35) Zeriuani, quod tantum est regnum, ut ex eo cuncte genetes Sclauorum exorte sint et originem, sicut affirmant, ducant.
(36) Prissani civitates LXX.
(37) Uelunzani civitates LXX.
(38) Bruzi plus est undique quam de Enisa ad Rhenum
(39) Uuizunbeire
(40) Caziri civitates C.
(41) Ruzzi.
(42) Forsderen.
(43) Liudi.
(44) Fresiti.
(45) Serauici.
(46) Lucolane.
(47) Ungare.
(48) Uuislane.
(49) Sleenzane civitates XV.
(50) Lunsizi civitates XXX.
(51) Dadosesani civitates XX.
(52) Milzane civitates XXX.
(53) Besunzane civitates II.
(54) Uerizane civitates X.
(55) Fraganeo civitates XL.
(56) Lupiglaa civitates XXX.
(57) Opolini civitates XX.
(58) Golensizi civitates V.

In many cases information about number of "civitates" is missing - this of course also due to lack of information (just like many tribes are not listed).

=============================================

It is not 100% clear what exactly "civitates" in this document mean (see above).

But undoubtedly number of "civitates" listed for each tribe in "Bavarian Geographer" indicate the strength of each tribe.

Something similar in Anglo-Saxon Britain was Tribal Hidage, which listed 35 Anglo-Saxon tribes and number of "hides" for each tribe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_Hidage



West Saxons was the strongest of all 35 tribes, with 100 thousand (!) hides. The weakest tribe had only 300 hides.
 
- Mechlin / Mecklenburg; fortified town since the 9th century (open settlement existed already before that), along trade routes from Elbe River to Baltic Sea and from Hamburg to mouth of Oder River; important centre of slave trade (those slaves were mostly Danish people captured by Slavic pirates) in the 12th century; abandoned and burned by its own inhabitants in 1160

Mechlin was capital (and together with Zwierzyn one of two main cities) of the Reregi (37)

Wall surrounding Slavic Mechlin (archaeological reconstruction):



Illustration is from A. Turasiewicz's "Dzieje polityczne Obodrzyców", Cracow 2004:

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL129...u_do_utraty_niepodleglosci_w_latach_1160-1164

Fragment from English summary:



A. Turasiewicz, as well as two German historians - L. Giesebrecht and W. Fritz - show evidence for existence of a unified Obotrite state, ruled by supreme Grand Dukes, before it fragmented into many distinct entities again. In fact there were several subsequent periods of unifcations and fragmentations.

If we accept views of these scholars, then the Grand Duchy of Obotrites was older than Great Moravia, and thus one of first Slavic realms.

=========================================

the Veleti nation by itself was said to have consisted of over a hundred towns within their territory

Indeed, considering that it was Early-to-High Middle Ages, level of urbanization of Polabian and Pomeranian Slavs was considerable.

Already German 19th century historian August Wilhelm Ferdinand von Tippelskirch wrote in 1861:

"(...) Slavic tribes along the Baltic coast were searching for profits to a larger extent in trade, fishing and piracy, than in agriculture. They lived in urban centers much more eagerly than ancient Germanic tribes, who hated urban lifestyle. (...)"

Though Tippelskirch's comment was exaggerated (as Turasiewicz writes, agriculture was still - like in entire Medieval Europe - the most important branch of Polabian-Pomeranian economies), modern historians, for example Eric Christiansen in his book "The Northern Crusades", also point this out.

According to Christiansen, Polabian & Pomeranian Slavs were much more urbanized than for example their northern neighbours, Danes.

====================================

Luebeck was also a Slavic city (its original Slavic name was Ljubice) - and it was the most important trade center of Obotrites. It was located along the trade route connecting Sweden (including Birka - perhaps the main urban trade center of Eastern Scandinavia at that time) and Northern Germany.

In year 1129 sources mention the existence of outposts of foreign merchants (probably Saxon and Frisian) in Slavic Ljubice.

Customary urban law, existing in Slavic Ljubice, was incorporated into German Luebeck Recht, codified by Frederick Barbarossa in 1188.

In the 13th & 14th centuries that Luebeck Recht - alongside with Magdeburg Recht - became the model of organization for towns in Central Europe.
 
As usual, you are an incredible source of information, dear sir. If you were informing us all about any other but Slavic tribes' history it would bring incredible amount of discussion and opinions. However, there is very little knowledge about these histories among all of the Western Civilization's nations/populations. For most of them, Europe East of France consists of Germany and Russia, there's not much to talk about in between. It's Western arrogance and ignorance my friend, and unfortunately there's not much you can do about it. The whole idea that Germans' established many of their towns based on the law developed by Slavic tribes before them, that Slavs even lived in towns and weren't just primitive, brainless cavemen the Germans liked to portrait them as to all those living west of them is quite revolutionary.
The tragic destruction of the Western Slavic nations, whole nations destroyed, hundreds of thousands taken away as Slaves, done by mostly Christian Franks, who it appears were more closely related to the Dutch then Germans is a historical fact that almost no one knows or talks about. What was the main reason for their annihilation? their faith? is that a reason to kill off and enslave entire tribes of peoples?
Domen, I salute you!
 
As usual, you are an incredible source of information, dear sir. If you were informing us all about any other but Slavic tribes' history it would bring incredible amount of discussion and opinions. However, there is very little knowledge about these histories among all of the Western Civilization's nations/populations. For most of them, Europe East of France consists of Germany and Russia, there's not much to talk about in between. It's Western arrogance and ignorance my friend, and unfortunately there's not much you can do about it. The whole idea that Germans' established many of their towns based on the law developed by Slavic tribes before them, that Slavs even lived in towns and weren't just primitive, brainless cavemen the Germans liked to portrait them as to all those living west of them is quite revolutionary.
The tragic destruction of the Western Slavic nations, whole nations destroyed, hundreds of thousands taken away as Slaves, done by mostly Christian Franks, who it appears were more closely related to the Dutch then Germans is a historical fact that almost no one knows or talks about. What was the main reason for their annihilation? their faith? is that a reason to kill off and enslave entire tribes of peoples?
Domen, I salute you!
Ah, but is his information accurate?

He uses the terms "Migration Period" and "Dark Ages," for example, both of which have been discontinued in mainstream scholarship (particularly the latter term). He alsy describes the "Iranian people" as "white people of the Caucasoid race" which is utter hogwash. There is no such thing as a "Caucasoid race," for one thing; the concept that humans are segregated into three distinct races, the Caucasoid (white), Negroid (black), and Mongoloid (East Asian) was discredited forty years ago. I wouldn't trust information on ethnic origins from a person who uses terminology that no one except fringe nutjobs have used since 1979. Likewise, simply measuring the skulls of a group of people, in this case the Iranians, doesn't tell us what colour skin they had. Nor does knowing their DNA haplogroup.

Be careful how seriously you take any information you are given on these boards. You would be better served to take some of the information you are given here (Domen's pictures, for example, are a very good starting point) while investigating others further (the maps, for example, are rubbish, as we have absolutely no idea how widespread the Avars really were, due to the difficulties in classifying people by their material culture).

Don't take anyone's word on here as gospel, whether it is Domen, myself, or even Plotinus. Especially not assertions which have few sources, like those in Domen's first post. He offers more sources in his later posts, so they're far more likely to be correct. Use what you learn here as a baseline to further investigation, don't just swallow it whole.
 
He uses the terms "Migration Period" and "Dark Ages," for example, both of which have been discontinued in mainstream scholarship

Really? :eek: Probably that's why in 2012 an international research project called "Migration Period between Odra and Vistula" started:

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/en/project

:eekdance:

What other term do you propose for "Dark Ages"? In history of territory of Poland "Early Middle Ages" is usually counted since the 9th - 10th centuries. For times after the fall of the W. Roman Empire and the 9th century we use "Dark Ages" or some other funny terms. That's how this period is often denoted.

The same refers to history of territory of East Germany and several other regions.

Anyway - one of reasons why that period is called "Dark Ages" is because there is scarcity of written texts from that time. For example from the main source from Christian Europe in the 7th century is "Historia Francorum" chronicle. It is one of few texts published at that time, which survived to our times.

the skulls of a group of people, in this case the Iranians, doesn't tell us what colour skin they had. Nor does knowing their DNA haplogroup.

Genes responsible for pigmentation are not in haplogroup (Y-DNA), but in autosomal DNA. These genes are for example HERC2, SLC45A2, and TYR. Skin and hair colour of Iranians were established by examining alleles predictive of pigmentation to predict phenotype from ancient DNA (from human remains).

And in some cases there are also mummies, which have their hair preserved.

Your idea that pigmentation was established by checking their skulls is insane. Have you smoked something before posting?

we have absolutely no idea how widespread the Avars really were, due to the difficulties in classifying people by their material culture).

It is very easy to distinguish material culture of nomadic pastoralists from that of sedentary agriculturalists... :hmm:
 
I enjoy finding out about historical facts, as well as theories, especially those little known to common masses. James Stuart brings up some good points.
Is it true that a large part East Germans is genetically different from West Germans? If yes, is it because of the mixing with Slavics?
From the maps it looks like entire East Germany was the land of the Western(Wend) Slavs, also a small part of Poland, Czech Rep. and North-East West Germany.
Pretty much all German cities which end in IN were in fact conquered Slavic town names, also several other, less recognizable, I think Chemnitz is one of them, German TZ- Slavic C or CE.
Are there any written materials I could read about the Slavic polytheistic religion? I've read about the Norse, Celtic and of course Greek deities, never about the Slavic ones, want to find out if there are any similarities.
Read about the Magyar/Hungarian conquest of the Panonian Slavs in modern Hungary. Is there an explanation why the Magyars killed off the men after the conquest and took all the (better looking) women with them?
Yes, the Slavic people seem to have suffered incredibly over the centuries, from many foes, and from the fact they kept on (and still do-Ukraine) fighting each other so eagerly.
 
Really? :eek: Probably that's why in 2012 an international research project called "Migration Period between Odra and Vistula" started:

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/en/project

:eekdance:

What other term do you propose for "Dark Ages"? In history of territory of Poland "Early Middle Ages" is usually counted since the 9th - 10th centuries. For times after the fall of the W. Roman Empire and the 9th century we use "Dark Ages" or some other funny terms. That's how this period is often denoted.

The same refers to history of territory of East Germany and several other regions.

Anyway - one of reasons why that period is called "Dark Ages" is because there is scarcity of written texts from that time. For example from the main source from Christian Europe in the 7th century is "Historia Francorum" chronicle. It is one of few texts published at that time, which survived to our times.



Genes responsible for pigmentation are not in haplogroup (Y-DNA), but in autosomal DNA. These genes are for example HERC2, SLC45A2, and TYR. Skin and hair colour of Iranians were established by examining alleles predictive of pigmentation to predict phenotype from ancient DNA (from human remains).

And in some cases there are also mummies, which have their hair preserved.

Your idea that pigmentation was established by checking their skulls is insane. Have you smoked something before posting?



It is very easy to distinguish material culture of nomadic pastoralists from that of sedentary agriculturalists... :hmm:
The idea of a "Migration Period" is crap. There is literally no period in human history in which there hasn't been mass migrations, including today. The term has fallen completely into disuse, especially since Guy Halsall came on the scene. Just because you subscribe to one of the small group of fringe academics, most of whom are nationalists, who actually still believe this tripe - as evidenced by your continuing use of words like "Caucasoid," "race," and "ethnography" as if they are actually legitimate terms, rather than pseudoscientific hogwash - does not mean the term is in use outside of that fringe. I can still dig up groups, and recent ones, that portray homosexuality as a mental illness.

"Dark Ages" is not used by legitimate historians. Ever. The term "Early Middle Ages" is used to describe that period. If Poland hasn't caught up with the rest of the world, that's not my problem.

The hair colour of mummies is well-known to change over time, and autosomal DNA degrades, as does all DNA. We can't tell, for example, what colour skin Neanderthals had. I am unaware of how long it would take to degrade, so you may well be correct about the skin colour of a few mummies and skeletons. To use that starting point to claim that "most Iranians were white" is such a ridiculous leap of faith that it is not worth replying to, like much of what you post. I suspect this is why nobody except occasionally Flying Pig bothers to reply to any threads you post in any more. I have conversed with several old members of CFC who enjoyed the History sub-forum, who have explicitly named this sort of word-vomit as the reason they abandoned the site.

How easy is it to distinguish the material culture of the Avars from their non-Avar pastoralist neighbours? Or are all pastoralists in that time period Avars?

That is a perfect example of the ridiculous logical leaps you routinely make in your posts, which is why it's incredibly frustrating to argue with you. You quote fringe studies which are so bizarre that nobody has even bothered to do the research to refute them, because why the hell would anybody try to refute a study from 2012 that still uses the term "Caucasoid"? You post unrelated pictures, maps from periods where we know maps were routinely wrong - their are literally dozens of threads on these boards specifically devoted to maps being obscure - and seem to believe that by posting the most words, you have somehow 'won' a thread. Your tactic of quadruple-posting hogwash that barely even responds to any posts others have made is what drew me out of lurking in the first place, and I'm strongly regretting that decision.

I think it's best for me to just leave CFC History to die, and move on to a different forum, as Dachs, Masada, Lord Baal, etc., have done.
 
The idea of a "Migration Period" is crap. There is literally no period in human history in which there hasn't been mass migrations, including today.

Well - at least we agree in one thing! :)

But the "Migration Period" is still considered as somehow special, because the number of mass migrations was higher than usual.

The term has fallen completely into disuse, especially since Guy Halsall came on the scene.

Maybe in Australia, where many things have fallen into disuse, including didgeridoo.

Just because you subscribe to one of the small group of fringe academics

Have you actually bothered to visit the link I provided to you? These are not any "fringe academics" but some of leading European archaeologists.

Yes, maybe from Australian perspective they are "fringe". But then - Australia is not famous for having some extraordinary archaeology.

and autosomal DNA degrades, as does all DNA

Yes, but scientists have learned to establish how the DNA degrades - which is explained for example here (click the link):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o25ANiRAMvM#t=298

So if scientists see a degraded DNA, they can establish how it looked like in its original, non-degraded form.

But DNA degrades over many thousands of years. So DNA which is just a few thousand years old is not yet so much degraded.

The hair colour of mummies is well-known to change over time

You can still establish what was the original colour basing on what you see and your knowledge on how could it change.

How easy is it to distinguish the material culture of the Avars from their non-Avar pastoralist neighbours?

Which exactly non-Avar pastoralist neighbours do you mean? Instead of just nitpicking all the time, try to actually be specific and factual.

You quote fringe studies

The studies I quote are NOT fringe. Yet it would still be better to quote fringe studies, than not quoting any - which is what you are doing. :bowdown:
 
Dachs, Masada, Lord Baal

These guys are very knowledgeable about many historical subjects. But two of them have a bad habit of posting very "daring" posts also about subjects on which they have little understanding - either based on very general knowledge, pre-conceptions, misconceptions or prejudice.

When I know little about some subject, I usually don't post authoritatively in such threads or if I do, then at least I'm not trying to refute all arguments made by the OP and then to troll and mock the entire thread to death if I fail. Whereas that was often being done by Lord Baal and Masada.

I don't have anything bad to say about Dachs, though - he is much more decent than the other two.

When those two disagreed but lacked detailed knowledge and arguments, they would typically troll, mock, offend or accuse of bias (while being themselves prejudiced), trying to get the thread closed. You were perhaps getting along with them but only because you were in agreement all the time.

What kind of a debate is that in which everyone is of the same opinion? That's not a discussion but a mutual admiration society.

"Dark Ages" is not used

It is, even twice - because there was also a period called "Dark Ages" in Ancient Greek history.

a study from 2012 that still uses the term "Caucasoid"?

Improve your reading comprehension. What makes you think that a study about late Iron Age migrations in Central Europe is about Bronze Age Iranians in Central Asia? As for the term "Caucasoid", it is still used in science, for example in forensic anthropology. Not even mentioning the common practice of racial profiling in modern medicine (which is used because individual profiling is not yet advanced enough, while many race-related correlations in results of treatment were discovered).

If Poland hasn't caught up with the rest of the world, that's not my problem.

We don't need to "catch up" in use of language and terms with WASP-ish Anglophone countries (whch is what you really mean by "the rest of the world").

We are entitled to our own terminology, especially when discussing history of the region where our country is located.

Terminology is just terminology - you should concentrare on the substance, instead of nitpicking and ranting about the usage of words all the time...
 
Right on brother, you sure are the Wise One!
What can you tell me about Great Moravia, the first real Slavic Empire? Is it true it was a vassal state of the Eastern Franconia?
Was it original Monotheistic Religion really Eastern Orthodoxy? Any maps?
Did they fall to the Hungarians/Magyars? And why?
 
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