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Frederick

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Kaxeon, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. Kaxeon

    Kaxeon Chieftain

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    So, I have been reading these boards quite alot lately, and have found threads about two of my other favourite leaders (Mehmed and Hannibal) but not much about Frederick.

    I think he has potential, and that he is very flexible, with a strong combination of traits. PHI and ORG both allows for teching (mainly with SE and bulbing) but also warmongering with ORG aiding me in keeping the civic upkeep down.

    The lack of threads and dicussions about Frederick do however make me doubt if I am the only one who consider this leader one of the stronger ones.

    My strategy is normally to try to get a good economy going, while aiming to out-tech my opponents. I will go to war if I have to, or if I feel I have a significant techlead, but if not, I'll wait for panzers before I take over the world.

    Basically I'd like some input from more experienced players regarding strategies or just general tips or thoughts about Frederick. Show him some love :)
     
  2. CLST

    CLST Warlord

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    I like EE with Frederick. Build only spy wonders, get only spy specialists, drop slider for espionage after alphabet and you have a gspy, and just spam courthouses and go to war with your army/army of spies
     
  3. Genv [FP]

    Genv [FP] Website Moron

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    The problem with frederick is his weak UU and UB. They come later than the American's UB / UU


    By the industrial age the game is already decided anyways.
     
  4. mboettcher

    mboettcher General

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    EE does work well with Freddy. In fact the combo of philo/oraganized/mining (great wall) make him perhaps the best EE leader.

    In fact I think Freddy is one of the most powerful and flexible leaders in the entire game.
    Freddy's synergy with his Civ is superb. Most leaders have decent to good synergy but few have as excellent synergy. Boudica maybe, Julius, Lizzy, Mansa, but not a whole lot more.

    Freddy's flexibility and Strengths are this: Because he is organized (a very underrated trait) and Philosophical He gets Universities, Courthouses, and Lighthouses for cheap and Assembly Plants for a price that makes you think firaxis is going-out-of-business.

    The courthouses are extremely valuable early and as CLST points out, combined with his Philo trait this makes for one of the best EE leaders.

    His (Germany's) starting techs are also excellent and provide good synergy: Mining and Hunting. This means he starts with that all-valuable scout. It also means he can quickly get hammers going and get quick access to masonry and bronze working. His traits combined with these techs make for some very interesting economic FLexibility early. He may not be industrious but is one of the few (only?) leader canidates w/o this trait to run a WE/SSE anyway despite this. The philo trait pumps a lot of strength into this and he is well set up to get pyramids (or Great Wall for EE?...) and leverage an early SE with a good land grab and maybe a short war with early axes.

    I also like to go for oracle since the early wood chopping lets me get to it and the computer even on immortal doesn't put high priority on it. I'll either get CoL or Metal Casting which are enormously expensive at that time. So either I found a religion and get cheap courthouses or I can run Engs for GE points and build forges/Colossus way early.

    Freddy also gets the most out of Germany's underratted UB. Not only does he get them for so cheap that its easy to put them in every city, but he gets double the GPP from the two extra engs. He can accumulate a lot of GE over the course of the game and if they are settled then that's a lot of teching and wonders. The assembly plant if combined with the right strategy can turn even moderate to poor cities into strong production centers. It really is quite a marvel playing with Germany and Having all 12-14 cities (before your industrial move) producing panzerss and bombers in 3 turns or less. Oh, and speaking of Panzers, its the last available UU but has the same game-breaking potential rivalled only by the Praetorian. Unlike the Praetorian, Panzers have to be built in massive numbers because of the era and is limited in effectiveness in how late it comes but its not limited by speed or economic restrictions of empire size (especially under Freddy) and combined with bombers can overrun an empire in only a few turns. Having a Bad-a** unit when the world is a lot smaller place can have its advantages.

    In other words, Freddy has the access to early scouts and axes that allow him to establish strong early position and is an excellent economic leader that allows Germany to hit its full strength in the industrial age setting them up strongly for a Dom, Conquest, Space Race, Diplo or (ugh) Time victory. His economic ability/ wonder access even makes a cultural victory reasonable but how un-German.
     
  5. mboettcher

    mboettcher General

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    @ GENV

    Do a forum search and look at the numbers comparison of the Panzer to the Praetorian. You'll see that their Success rate vs. their contemporaries are very favorable and that the Panzer's (especially pinch Panzers if you promoted them as they should've been) like praetorians also compare favorably vs their next generation units giving the unit a great deal of punch when the game is probably on the line.
     
  6. BalbanesBeoulve

    BalbanesBeoulve Emperor

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    Awesome traits, worst UU and UB in the game.

    He's good with unrestricted leaders though.
     
  7. SnowlyWhite

    SnowlyWhite Emperor

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    guess I saw most of the threads with him actually...

    1st immortal game, pick freddie; a wise rule. Wanna play safe, pick him again
     
  8. EweezE

    EweezE Dog Soldier

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    I like Freddy's traits. In fact philo is my favorite trait. But I have not picked him yet and don't know if I ever will. His UU is too little too late and his UB is just bad. As a Philosophical leader he will have popped quite a few GP throughout the game already when his UB becomes available. So by the time you start running all those engineers in his UB you'll be lucky to exploit it.. The panzer can defend against enemy tanks. Wow that helps! If you build tanks, shouldn't you be using them on offense? (Blitzing)

    The EE sounds like it has a little bit of synergy with Freddy, but you're better off with Gilgamesh for your EE. Ziggurat (courthouse) at priesthood means you are accumulating EPs sooner. You can also run that spy specialist a lot sooner. Also vultures do better VS garrisoned archers than regular axemen. Early military expansion comes easier and more swiftly with Sumeria.
     
  9. mboettcher

    mboettcher General

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    @EweezE

    Very true about the Gilgmesh comparison. Forgot about his early courthouses. Ghandi is another good one too with philo and UB Jail.

    I Think you're underestimating the Panzer as a UU. Tanks are by far the most powerful unit of their era. Infantry are the closest thing to them with a power rating of 20. SO tanks have a bigger advantage vs infantry than MA does against MechINf. (28/20 vs 40/32). Panzers render all enemy tanks essentially useless. Which means you're fighting a war in which you have an 8 point power advantage and 1 movement point over everybody else. With panzers I always promote them to pinch (I run theo for the extra promo). This way they even have an advantage over antitanks (which are never built in large numbers and are completely useless once they get dmged even mildly as their power is amplified through promos etc). So basically In Panzers you have a unit that disables the enemies primary offensive unit of the era completely and allows you to attack at will with a combined force of bombers and tanks for a blitzkrieg of a helpless enemy. Panzers are also one of the few UU that can hold their own against their replacement (MA).

    Panzers don't look so strong on paper but if you run the numbers they have similar numerical advantages as praetorians and have the speed and support of bombers to exploit this despite their very late arrival.

    Assembly Plants are certainly not great UB but they are cheap which lets you get your industrial economy rolling quickly. A small overlooked aspect of the AsP is that they allow Germany to run 8 Engs in normal cities and a whopping 11 in the Iron Works city. I'll try to exploit this sometimes by combining my Iron Works with my National Epic. This works well because my NE usually winds up in my Wonder producing city so it has a powerful production base anyway and allows me to farm GE even late game with Pacifism/Philo/NE combo. Something else that also breathes life into AsPl is the corp system. Running Sushi/Mining means that one can maintain a large CE land development while still running full eng's. This way cities produce units rapidly so all gold can go to research which is further supplemented by Rep. Civics look something like: Rep, FS, Emanc/CS, Merc/Env, Paci/theo(warpath). This makes for a hell of a late game juggernaut and space race threat.

    PS: Its high time someone wrote a comprehensive walkthrough for Germany. Too many civs have their UU/UB left to the dustbin for a lack of the somewhat unique twists needed to exploit them. The Aztecs used to be one of those civs, now everybody knows how to make jaguar warriors an early game empire builder.
     
  10. Genv [FP]

    Genv [FP] Website Moron

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    The PROBLEM with his UU / UB is because by the time you hit the industrial age, the game is already decided, so the bonus isn't game changing like praets.
     
  11. CLST

    CLST Warlord

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    The game is not always decided by the industrial age,
     
  12. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I don't find them totally useless but like genv says very often the game is decided by the time panzers could be a factor - making their usability far less certain than most other UUs. The praetorian is a bad thing to compare any unit to though - it's in a class with quechas and immortals in terms of being one of the more AI-breaking UU's around...VERY FEW UUs compare.

    One thing I don't like about the panzer is that when attacking against infantry or other standard gunpowder like fortified marines/paratroopers/whatever (and anti-tanks) that it functions just as another tank would...certainly not bad but hardly huge. Again, comparing it to the praetorian, which axes lose to consistently even with shock (can this be said about anti-tanks vs panzers?). There are also more counters to everything in the modern era - air inferiority screws the panzer for example...ANYTHING can kill them when they're 1/2 strength :(.

    These factors combine to make the german UU/UB indeed kind of weak - but much like the American civ Germany was given leaders with good traits to compensate. PHI/ORG are both extremely versatile. While true rookies might not have GPP manipulation down after a little while the benefits of PHI are pretty easy to milk even if you want to use a lot of cottages - it's a really well rounded trait and mixing it with ORG can allow you to at least take the generic stock units to the opposition with less problems.
     
  13. The Rook

    The Rook King

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    I agree with TMIT, and would add that the AI doesn't relentlessly spam tanks in the same way that many humans would, so you will unlikely find that the 50% bonus is a factor in most battles. Also, there are few positions where a human could reach the Modern Age, build an army of Panzers, and kill everyone, and not have been able to secure a decisive advantage through other means, most probably much earlier.
     
  14. Kaxeon

    Kaxeon Chieftain

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    Since everyone seem to think that the german UU and UB are pretty bad, how important excactly is it to have a good/early UU/UB compared to having good traits. I mean, which one is the better leader:

    leader 1) Good traits, bad/late UU/UB
    leader 2) Bad traits, strong/early (think preatorians, immortal) UU/UB
    leader 3) Medium traits, medium UU/UB
     
  15. EweezE

    EweezE Dog Soldier

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    I'll take what's behind door #3. Two bad traits are usually not paired together though.. If you get one "bad" trait the other is often excellent.
     
  16. SnowlyWhite

    SnowlyWhite Emperor

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    traits and ub are all that matter; the uus... there are immortals, praets and q if you're on marathon... Catas and eventually conquistadors. Rest... with uu or without, who cares.

    and traits are more important then ub... and freddie's traits are great, ergo he's good leader despite panzer(which would be good if the ai would actually spam tanks, but it doesn't...)

    trait is solid; "damn, I have praets but the nearest guy is 20 tiles away...". Traits will work even if nearest guy is across the ocean or 10 tiles away. UUs won't.
     
  17. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    It all depends on how you use it. In the right hands any trait can be exploited to full potential.

    Fredricks ub and uu are awesome. If it's a close game going into the industrial age they can really put you over the top, and no the game isn't always wrapped up by then. A lot of space races on harder levels are very close going into that era.
     
  18. Genv [FP]

    Genv [FP] Website Moron

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    Um, Yeah, it kind IS decided :mischief:
     
  19. Genv [FP]

    Genv [FP] Website Moron

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    Julius Caesar has good traits, a good UU, and an OK UB.
     
  20. SnowlyWhite

    SnowlyWhite Emperor

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    true, but if all traits are equal, some are more equal then the others :p
     

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