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Frederick

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Kaxeon, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. mboettcher

    mboettcher General

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    Look any late UU and UB are only useful on high difficulty levels. Granted with Rome or some other early hitting Civ the game should be pretty much in hand or at least you have enough momentum to win on EMperor and Above. But in Most high difficulty games, especially with other continents, you can't even come close to winning before the industrial era. You can gain a bit of an advantage but most games at that level go down to space race, cultural and DOm/Diplo races. In other words the panzer and APLant can push you over the top when the game is on the line. Obviously air superiority is going to matter in this era so any unit is subject to that so any arguement against the panzer because of this is pointless. And yes, on higher difficulties, the AI does build a lot of tanks. I killed 120 tanks in my last game- all with panzers, and only lost one panzer to a tank which was on the defense and had already been damaged. You need to actually try the Germans with Freddy on a high difficulty level before you criticize their usefulness. I've tried a lot of civs and there are a lot of UU that are much harder to exploit because they come too early. The panzer is definately in the top tier of UU.

    And yes, on Monarch and below the Panzer should be an irrelevant UU.

    @ SNowlyWhite

    Redcoats are also a pretty formidable UU. Especially Under Churchill. Easy to spam, no counters.
    Gallic Warriors under Boudica are also very strong if promoted right. The potential for 50% withdrawal, Super Strong hill defense and Combat I right out of the gates is hard to counter. Not as versatile as the Praetorians but certainly as effective in the right places especially when considering the AI's penchant for building on hills.
    War Chariots also have their place in keeping the enemy at bay for wonder spamming and taking perhaps a good second capital site from the enemy early.
     
  2. CLST

    CLST Warlord

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    The AI builds tanks. Do your AI never war in the late game? And if playing past the Renaissance era is just tying up loose ends, then you need to move up in difficulty.
     
  3. SnowlyWhite

    SnowlyWhite Emperor

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    point about redcoats(forgot them since I spam them so many times :p) and war chariots. I actually play brennus quite alot, but the gaelic is still meh... withdraw, but when attacking at 20% chances... ugh, can I actually get somethin' better? :p
     
  4. The Rook

    The Rook King

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    In practice, most games are won at the higher levels (Immortal/Deity) LONG before Panzers become available. It is easy enough to recognise the point at which a game is decided, and it is seldom the turn that the game concludes, even if the winning condition is late Domination or Space Race.

    Personally I have used vanilla tanks to "mop up" at higher levels, and in my experience (normal speed, standard maps):

    1. The AI doesn't build many tanks. This is probably because it normally takes advantage of cheap upgrades, and there are no obsolete units that are replaced by tanks. Personally, I would be far more concerned about the AI obtaining Advanced Flight, as it is very likely that it would have a pile of cavalry sat around somewhere.
    2. The AI doesn't have a clue how to use tanks, and in the modern age there are so many ways to deal with them (fighters, bombers, artillery, tanks with CR promotions, spys etc).

    I stand by my original assertion that if you can maintain tech/power parity with the AI until the modern age at Immortal/Deity, then you have either "decided" the game earlier, or more than likely had the opportunity to. For this reason, I would sooner have a UB/UU trait combo that is less situational, and more likely to make gains earlier. That said, there is nothing wrong with Frederick's traits.
     
  5. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    I don't think anyone is disputing the effectiveness of panzers in a war against an equal opponent.
    Getting your industrialisation process done more quickly only to unlock the era's strongest attack unit which specifically beats up its non-unique equivalents is a definite chance to put the game away.

    Nevertheless, I wholeheartedly agree with The Rook. Even on the highest levels many games are essentially over by then. What is worse, panzers are an irrelevant UU if you have a tech lead, further narrowing the number of games they become a factor.

    Assembly Plants aren't too exciting for Frederick; the faster building time is a lot more noticable for leaders without the Organised trait.

    On the whole, I consider Germany to be one of the worse civilisations in the game (I like the traits of the leaders though).
     
  6. grandad1982

    grandad1982 Deity

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    @ Iranon.
    How can you say Germany are one of the worst civs in game when you like the leaders?

    Mining is a great starting tech, Hunting is a bit weak - limited food so you usually need to detour to Agr of Fish before BW.

    IND/EXP = really great IMO. I love EXP and here you can whip those important workers and get some nice overflow into you IND powered wonders. Also extra health and cheap forges. Looks like a synergy to me.

    PHI/ORG = also pretty funky. Cheap Lighthouses, Assembly Plants, Courthouses and Unis, combined with a higher GP birth rate and the abiltiy to expand you empire fast without the economic penaties? Yes please. A large food rich empire is ideal here allowing you to kick into overdrive with the UB.

    Who cares if the the UU isn't amazing? Its still a tank but its Tank+ so thats fine by me.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    You can separate civs from leaders for comparison. Given Germany weak leaders would make it TERRIBLE. Some civs are strong and then have weak leaders to compensate (or at least ones that don't empower the UB into being a super UB).

    Then, there's inca, which is just dirty. Anyway, the CIV germany itself is weak, though its leaders make up for it...especially freddy imo.
     
  8. mboettcher

    mboettcher General

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    @the rook

    I hate to say it but the rook is right. Most games are won before panzers are available, as we are all aware. There is nothing wrong with either Freddy's traits (which are excellant) or the UB/UU of the Germans but most games are won by this point, even on high difficulty levels. It is, howver, more of the fault of the AI than the value of the traits of the civ itself. Granted In some theoretical model the panzer can preform as well as the praetorian for its era, but one has to seriously contrive the gamelplan for the unit to play that much of a role (which I have done and it is quite fun) but reality has that one should be in control by this point. IN otherwords I wish one could play a game in which the victory was seriously on the line when one got panzers. UNfortunately it is a fault of the programming and not the balance of the game. Here's to CIv V taking a year and a half to beating on deity...
     
  9. mboettcher

    mboettcher General

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    @ TMIT

    INca are a well balanced civ whose Unique combo of UU and Leader allow for some excellent record setting but in hUman on Human combat it is really not that much better than most civs. Its an AI beating civ not a real super advantage. I personally don't consider them to be theoretically better than most civs in REAL human on human play. But of course that is subject to debate and personal style.
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    :). MP is a different world, true. I was thinking about civs mostly in context of competing with the AI. In MP inca is much weaker (quechas are nothing special against even warriors...and industrious loses a lot of luster too.), and civs like the Native Americans start to look soooooooooooooooo much better than in SP (not that NA is ever really bad). Dog soldiers tear the axe/prat nonsense to shreds and prevent those immortal problems to some extent (even fight there when ATTACKING, but on defense you can use archers...except vs persia? I guess you might want to choke them if they're right next to you, which you can probably do thanks to a resourceless UU...). Philo isn't a bad trait to mix in either! Actually, the NA UU makes them my favorite civ to compete against other players with. I'd trade protective for something else ideally maybe but overall a guaranteed anti-axe/spear/sword/PRAT (that can still catch people off guard or pillage) at bronzeworking is really strong. IMO NA has no earlygame holes and that makes them as close to OP as you can get in MP - Rome at least can be countered with certain units or iron-pillaging!

    Babylon is also very nice and is pretty safe from non-persian/egyptians etc early on. The reason I emphasize early on here is because as time goes by it's more and more likely you'll manage to get a strategic resource and expand/have strategy take over. In the early game you can be toast no matter how good you are in some situations unless you're playing certain civs (which minimizes but does not eliminate the chance).

    Inca is still decent in MP (FIN isn't bad, the granary will win some culture battles, IND CAN win some wonders if you're not bending over for an axe rush by doing it...etc). However, I'd much prefer a means to prevent me from getting killed. This means NA/Babylon and their UU, protective leaders, or at least IMP or EXP to try and win the race to find some copper/horses. It's really hard to survive without a strategic resource. You can badly hamper an axe rush but with only archers it's almost impossible to protect anything on flatlands even with protective archers that have access to drill/shock :(.
     
  11. grandad1982

    grandad1982 Deity

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    The UB would be great with Peter - PHI/EXP. Health to compensate and more GE for a few choice late game wonders.

    So the civs characteristics are its starting techs and its UU and UB? OK.

    Gemany:
    Tech - Hunting and Mining
    UU - Panzer, an anti-tank tank
    UB - A pimped factory

    Mining I like, hunting is a bit weak in most starting situations IMO.

    UU comes abit late but its still an edge, esspecially if you enjoy playing to the modern era.

    UB great with both leaders. Cheap health to counter industrial pollution and a fast forge in nearly every city and room for a pimped factory or more Great Engineers and the UB cheaper?

    I give that 2.5 out of 4. Not stella but still pretty good and nice overlaps with the leaders.

    If only they had a slightly earlier UU.
     
  12. EweezE

    EweezE Dog Soldier

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    Only other I can think of would be a UU version of infantry. Since those Nazis were getting seasoned and winning battles before other world powers joined the war.. Maybe their infantry could start with combat 1. That'd be better than their current UU and slightly earlier, but still quite late.
     
  13. grandad1982

    grandad1982 Deity

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    Yer or artillary WW1 style. An artillary which could 100% or started with Barrage. Not really that early.

    Infantary would be best. Comes at what is often a critcal time. Combat 1 or maybe Pinch or Mobility.

    Or an Airship UU.
     
  14. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    1. i rarely use early UU's for instance and the UB is often just a small bonus.
    good traits can make all the difference though.

    Despite his mediocre UU/UB i like Freddy a lot, traits are awesome. Someone like
    Charlie has a very good UB (Rathaus) but i don't like his traits at all, far prefer Freddy.
     
  15. ese-aSH

    ese-aSH Prince

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    then play frederick of the HRE with unrestricted leaders :D (and enjoy the win :lol:)
     
  16. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    Don't like unrestricted leaders that much, part of the fun for me is to accept whatever the rng has in store when you start a game.

    But... if i were to do so i'd take Liz with sacrificial altars and Cataphracts to execute a very early liberalism powered mounted rush.
     
  17. Hereditary Rule

    Hereditary Rule Warlord

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    Make the Panzer have double movement over the normal tank instead of its current bonus. Even if you have a tech lead, you've got a great aggressive UU to conquer with. I wish firaxis had done this like the CIV3 panzer.

    As for Hunting/Mining, it's my favorite combo in the game.

    Generate start, tech for whatever food you need (hunting unlocks AH), tech Bronze working (the starting scout has found copper), settle second city and start rolling.

    Russia, Khmer, Germany, Ethiopia all have this combo and I generally have some of my strongest starts with these civs.
     
  18. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    Re Germany: I was indeed talking about the civ itself without taking traits into account. Starting techs are very much to my liking, but the uniques leave much to be desired.
    Both leaders have very good trait combinations - Frederick I consider strong even with a sub-par civ (Bismarck is decent but imo generally eclipsed by Augustus Caesar).

    Re Incas: My gripe is that the AI civs bend over and drops their pants when facing a flood of Quechuas. If they defended with warriors when appropriate, Incas would still be strong but wouldn't get as many free wins.
     
  19. mboettcher

    mboettcher General

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    @ TMIT

    NA is definately the best FFA civ in MP. The landscape chagnes a bit when there is some team MP. BUt, NA is still very useful to have on your team. It really helps to have a early defensive aid to bolster the heavy hitting military ally for later and the econ one for teching and general support. In fact if city gifting is allowed I've always been a fan of an early expanding civ LIke NA land grabbing and handing the back end cities over to the Wonderfarming super financial civ/leader (lizzy/mansa/Freddy even) who can make them the most profitable and pay for them. PLus the wonder farmer doesn't have to waste time on settlers.

    @Eweeze

    If only HRE wasn;t in the game. Then Landsknecht could be the German UU. I never thought that the Redcoat was an approriate UU for ENgland. Perhaps Welsh Longbowmen or a ship unit but not standard infantry of their era. The best infantry of the Era was considered Freddy's Prussian guard. They were known at the time and to history as being the best. This could also be the German UU especially considering that Freddy is the leader. Breach loading rifles from mid 19th century could also be their UU as they effectively leveled the competition in France and Austria.

    However, there has to be a WWII representation and German militarism is what defines the twentieth century and the modern ideas of warfare, tactics and weapons development. Hell a lot of ideas for the roles and styles of tanks were developed leading up to and during WWII. The Panther's unique combo of Firepower, mobility and protection is the most influential. Nearly every modern tank is a descendant of the panther and the ideology created by it. Therefore its almost mandatory that the Panzer is the UU of Germany and represented in the game.
     
  20. SnowlyWhite

    SnowlyWhite Emperor

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    I was always under the impression all the uus are selected from the period that nation was at their zenith of power(musketeer for france due to Louis XIII/XIV/Richelieu and the 30 years war in renaissance, conquistadors for spain due to probably Carol V, Filip II, again in renaissance, the zerker for vikings because their power was in medieval times - 800 - 1000 and so on).

    Hence the redcoats as England's highest power was somewhere in the victorian time; neither longbowmen's period or the elizabethan period were the moment when England was dominant in the world.

    As for Germany, their power post 1866 would be something from either ww 1 or ww 2. However, I think an infantry UU would be too overpowered(look at the redcoat) or totally irrelevant. Alternatively, you could get some artillery uu probably, for Krupp's sake.
     

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