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Fredrick counter attacks & reveals massive AI advantage

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Divaythsarmour, Sep 22, 2007.

  1. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    I recently completed a game playing as Elizabeth, noble, normal speed, small continents. I had managed to turn Kubla and Charlemagne into vassals on my continent.
    Then Fredrick (from another continent) declared war on me. But oddly enough, he wasn't attacking. Then I noticed that he was researching philosophy (or something). But he had 98 turns to complete it. So I thought "he's going for a cultural victory. Fredrick might be vulnerable right now."
    I was in pretty good shape for war. I had a dozen cannons and I was creating infantry and machine guns from my 3 largest cities at the rate of 1 per turn. I also had combustion. I started building destroyers and troop carriers.
    I launched my first invasion force, which included 6 cannons, 6 machine guns and 6 infantry. It took about 5 turns to get there. My cannons brought down the defenses of his coastal city with room to spare. I could see Fredrick only had trebuchets, longbowman and knights. I didn't waste time. I used the cannons that were left after the first barrage to hit his units in the city. Then I was able to take the city with my infantry (all in a single turn).
    So on the next turn, I bring all my forces into the city. I moved over 4 airships and waited for the counter attack.
    It came 3 turns later. I was using my air ships for recon and never saw the approaching stack. My new city felt like a single little "grain of sand" amidst "an ocean" of Fredrick's culture. That's probably how his stack managed to move 4 squares and attack all in a single turn.
    This would appear to be further proof that even on Noble level, the AI has some pretty nice advantages.
    So I just sit back and wait to see how it turns out? No way, I'm at the edge of my seat. He hits me with a bunch of trebs and catapults. Then it's one knight after another. I thought it was never going to end. It seemed to take 5 minutes. My double infantry turn to single. The same happens with the machine guns. Then one infantry goes down, then another. Then a machine gun dies. I''m starting to think, "wow, even with this sort of a technological edge, I still need to bring 2 dozen units in order to survive a counter attack."
    Fredrick is losing one unit after another in his desperate move to retake his city. And then it finally stops.
    I can't believe it, my troops held. The invading stack only has 3 units left (sigh of relief) I send one airship to recon and what's this I see to the north? Not only has Fredrick moved units 4 squares and attacked me in a single turn. But in the same turn a half dozen of those same units (including trebs) also managed to retreat about 3 squares (as evidenced by their low health).:confused: Hmmm.
    There was a second counter attack, but it was about 6 turns away. By then, I had brought in fresh troops and started to break out. I suspect that Fredrick lost a fourth of his army in that first counter attack. My third wave included tanks. I had to take 3 other cities, before the culture of the first coastal city would pop out of a single square. Eventually, I made Fredrick a vassal and even gave him back one of his cities that was going to turn over to Portugal.
     
  2. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    The AI simply doesn't cheat in that fashion - there's nothing in the code for it, and it would be blatant if it did. There are a couple of possibilities.

    1)You're confusing multiple units as being the same one -damaged units could have been from fighting someone else or from earlier attacks on you.

    2)He has had the highways random event - though it sounds implausible from his tech level.

    Simplest way to settle any argument is to put up a save from just before the AI move. There's no way such a cheat can exist though, but it would help to figure out what really happened.
     
  3. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    You point is very well taken. You might even be right. But, unfortunately, I didn't save the game at that point. My only save point was maybe a dozen turns before that counter attack. And then I played straight through to the end. I'm afraid there's no way to "settle the argument." But I have seen things like this happen before.
    Once I was playing Vanilla Civ4. I'm not sure who I was playing as, but I remember that I had just moved up to Prince level. I had taken 3 or 4 archers to go and take a barbarian city. I recall feeling frustrated with the slow pace of moving toward the city. Then I noticed an AI swordsman (non barbarian - from one of the other civs) come quickly into the vicinity. On the next turn, I finally get my stack of archers next to the barbarian city, so that I can see that the barbarians have 2 warriors defending. I will most likely take the city on the next turn. And what do you think happens, the AI swordsman moves 2 squares and takes the city all by himself. I saw it with my own eyes.
    Now, you would probably say that the swordsman had other allies (probably on the other side of the barbarian city - beyond my view) who died in battle. It just didn't feel that way to me. It felt like a blatant cheat.
     
  4. xanadux

    xanadux King

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    Still no evidence for cheating. The numbers that counter attacked you in the first don't sound unreasonable. In 3 turns he was able to bring every knight within 18 squares (assuming engineering). As said before, you don't know those wounded trebs were from fighting you.

    The sword could have had guerilla or woodsman 2 ... did you check? And there was surely either another unit you didn't see attack the barbs, or an archer moved out of the city. I've never seen or heard of the AI cheating in any way regarding the # of moves a unit gets.
     
  5. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    In the Fredrick counter attack situation, there wouldn't have been any damaged units (of Fredricks) in the region as a result of my military action. When I took the city, I killed everything in that square. And I didn't pursue any of his units afterward as I was hoping to heal in time for the counter attack. Portugal was not at war with Fredrick, so the units wouldn't have been damaged thus. It's highly unlikely that either of my vassals would have been in the region at that point. They weren't in any shape to cross an ocean and battle. But in the absence of proof, it's just like talking about a UFO sighting. Although, I'm not so sure that it would be possible to have conclusive proof even if I had done game saves before and afterward. One could still speculate. I think I'll take another look at my game saves and see just how close it was. Maybe I can find something.

    OK, I've attached the game. It turns out that Fredrick was 91 turns from Dmocracy not Philosophy. At this save point, I haven't even mustered the invasion force yet. There's still no proof to be had. View attachment 160916
     
  6. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    Well then we could simply crack the game open in world builder on each turn and see if any units had moved further than permitted.

    This save's rather too far back to tell much. Which city did you hit? Bremen is the only coastal one I can see where it would be possible to be 4 tiles from an adjecent city stack.
     
  7. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    I went after Munich first. I'm going to load the game and play it as close to what I remember. Maybe it will reveal something.
     
  8. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    Munich is within 3 tiles (i.e. a single turn's movement) of Berlin. Did Frederick really not have a credible stack in his capital?
     
  9. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    Mr. Cynical,
    Yes, you're right that Berlin is 3 squares away. And the most rational explanation is that he pulled a large stack into Berlin without my noticing. Then he used the roads to come within striking distance. The only thing about that explanation is that it doesn't account for the quality of my reconaissance, which I thought was pretty good. I was actually hitting targets in Berlin, which I now know would account for damaged trebs after the counter attack.
    Still I did a replay. And another weird thing happened. My capitol city (London) in a single turn created 6 infantry (when I hadn't ordered them). I did a game save immediately afterward, although I don't think it will necessarily prove anything. You see, I was using Coventry as an invasion launching site. So I was directing each newly created unit to Coventry immediately after they were created. So I noticed the game told me an infantry was created in London, so I promoted it and moved it to Coventry. Then it does it again (from London) so I repeat. And then it happens 4 more times all within the same turn. I'm attaching the game save. Note - London is currently building Broadway, not infantry. Not that it matters,but the outcome is very different on the German end in this save as he has cannons and muskets now.
     
  10. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    Unfortunately, saves from *after* something strange happened are rather wortless. Open your ini file, set it to autosave each turn, and when something strange happens, immediately save the game and make a copy of the autosave before. Then post the autosave and tell us how to reproduce the situation. *Then* we can look at it. As long as you post only saves from after something supposedly strange happened, we have no way of checking it.

    Since I've checked several "the AI blatantly cheats!" claims in the past, and all of these claims could be attributed to either the person in question not understanding how the AI could produce a seemingly unusual effect while still adhering to the rules, or to bugs, please understand that I won't believe in claims that aren't backed by a proof.

    Edit: The save actually shows that something in your description is wrong. You said that six infantry were produced in London, promoted, and moved to Coventry, then you immediately saved.

    There are six infantry in Coventry. All of them have 15% fortify.

    This is not possible when these units have just been produced in the same turn.
     
  11. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    I like to promote my units as soon as they're created. I do so, because otherwise I forget to promote them before combat. And I hate losing a unit that otherwise would have survived. I usually just promote them for extra strength. Like I said, the game tells me "you've created an infantry in London." I promote him and move him to Coventry. This happens six times. You'll notice that I have the Pentagon in London, so along with my barracks I get two promotions.

    That's not to say that I didn't still miss something or misunderstand something. These games feel like they take on a life of their own. I often forget that it's just a program.
     
  12. Percy

    Percy Cow who laughs

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    You misunderstood him.
    A Fortified unit gets +5% defense per turn fortified. Since your 6 Infantries have +15% Fortify defense, it means they have been in this state for 3 turns (exactly). So it's not true that you "immediately saved" after promoting and moving them.
     
  13. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    The Pentagon provides its bonus to all cities, so you get two promotions for all units built in cities that have barracks (or a military instructor).

    The six infantry units we're talking about have 7 experience points. If they haven't fought battles yet, then this means that they were built in either London, York, or Karakorum. These are the three cities where you have barracks (+3 XP) plus one military instructor (+2 XP), then the Petagon bonus (+2 XP) gets added. However, there's stoill no way of telling when and how these units have been created without a save from before their creation.

    Btw, as a tip for future games: consider switching to vassalage/theocracy before raising an army, and/or pile your military instructors in one city, so that you get at least 10 XP for each new unit (which means three promotions). Build a military academy, the Heroic Epic, and later West Point in this city for increased unit production and even more XP. Even if you don't go to war, change your religious civic -"Organized Religion" has a very nice bonus, and "Paganism" really doesn't have anything to go for it.

    Yep, that's why I like playing Civ4, as well as (for example) the game you got your your nick from. Don't despair, just be aware hat you'll always learn new things in Civ4, it's part of what keeps the game fresh. With a tip of the hat to the other game we apparently both played: Divayth Fyr didn't become one of the mightiest wizards in Vvardenfell over night. ;)
     
  14. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    Thanks Psyringe. I appreciate your friendly comment. Yes good old Divayth. I really do like his armor. It's the only complete set in the game. My brother in Japan recently sent me a screenshot of his latest character wearing all bound armour and holding Trueflame. It's kind of funny, because that game brings us together even though we're on opposite sides of the planet (literally).
     

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