Free AI Promotions at Higher Difficulty Levels

[darrelljs]

I've kind of concluded this was a bad idea. I think the excessive production the Deity AIs get is enough of a boost. I'd be interested in hearing what others think on the topic.

 

[Imuratep]

They are necessary right now, but once the team has accommodated the AI to the FFH features they should be removed.

 

[Tasunke]

maybe only for arcane units. having hords of promo melee is just sick.

 

[xalien]

I'm torn between #2 and #3. Do these promotions increase unit level required to being able to upgrade to more advanced versions, i.e fawn->satyr?

 

[cabbagemeister]

I don't play much on Deity, but I do know that on Emperor the AI is now MUCH more competitive. I like the difficulty of Emperor now. The main issue of course is that if the AI is going to kick your butt because of the promotions, it'll happen early rather than late-game. This means that if you can survive to get T3 units, the extra AI promos are less important and the game becomes pretty easy again.

 

[cabbagemeister]

I'm torn between #2 and #3. Do these promotions increase unit level required to being able to upgrade to more advanced versions, i.e fawn->satyr?

This is an excellent question, and I've not been able to figure out the answer. IEven more than being relevant to upgrades, it's also pertinent to normal combat units. Is the AI's Combat III axeman at level 4, or level 1? If the latter, he only needs 2 more xp to get to Combat IV, which can be really rough...

 

[xienwolf]

It isn't meant as a balancing factor between each of the difficulty levels, nor as an assistance for the AI players, it is meant as a way for difficulty level to actually be meaningful when you are running a variable difficulty challenge mode. The VAST majority of the difference between difficulty levels is what freebies the AI gets when the game starts up. So changing the game to play as Deity midway through everything doesn't mean nearly as much as STARTING at deity. The few effects which you will notice are so minimal (you get less free health and happiness per city, AI bonus against Barbarians shifts slightly..) that they do not properly convey the increased challenge of the mid-game difficulty swap.


To answer questions: It isn't free promotions, it is free XP. Everything else is unaltered. So Combat III (without Aggressive giving one for free) means the unit has spent his level up for 2, 5 and 10, so now needs to get to 17 for his next level. And if he was an Adept, he is now 2 levels closer to becoming a Mage.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I ranted about this at some length a while back; my answer's still "nix it altogether."

I'll add that I don't use variable difficulty modes, so I'm not going to support something that's meant to fix them up when it has such a profound effect on all other game modes as well.

 

[JonathanStrange]

If "start freebies" are what difficulty levels are mostly about; and if those free XPs that newly built AI units get (which doesn't seem like just an early game bonus since they get these free XPs the entire game) are a big reason for their competitiveness, then how could the free XPs be removed without something being added (like a better AI) to keep them competitive?

 

[darrelljs]

it is meant as a way for difficulty level to actually be meaningful when you are running a variable difficulty challenge mode

. I did not know that.

I'm not going to support something that's meant to fix them up when it has such a profound effect on all other game modes as well.

What he said. I do play "Increasing Difficulty" on occasion, but really the mainstream settings should be the priority for any balance decisions. I wasn't a very successful Deity player before, but I could at least enjoy it .

Darrell

 

[WarKirby]

I despise the free promotions.

Doesn't the AI get bonuses to it's production and research rates at higher levels? I'd say being able to crank out superior numbers of the superior tech level troops than you have, is hard enough. Without having superior numbers of superior trained troops with superior tech.

The free xp just makes too much difference, I think. There's a point where it goes from "challenge to "problem", and it just feels unfair. In a recent deity game I'm playing through the use of Flexible difficulty, I find myself using the worldbuilder now and then to even the odds. Because it's just kind of boring otherwise. My heroes fighting off the endless hordes alone because none of my common troops are trained enough to even fight.


In a current game in FF, I'm playing scions, and the ljosalfar are next to me. I've spent most of the game holding off an endless tide of fawns, and now it's rangers and satyrs

 

[Sephi]

If it really is a "problem" I suggest you take two minutes and change it in ASSETS/XML/GAMEINFO/CIV4HandicapInfo. Just change all <iAIFreeXP> entries to 0 or whatever you want them to be.

 

[blacknight]

I liked the idea a while back of giving the AI discounted promotions rather than free ones (an effect like the charismatic trait).

I feel this generates an army more like a human would have (not everyone has 3 promotions, rather a few guys have five or six), and conveniently fixes a lot of the problems on flexible difficulty at the same time.

Cheers,

 

[WarKirby]

If it really is a "problem" I suggest you take two minutes and change it in ASSETS/XML/GAMEINFO/CIV4HandicapInfo. Just change all <iAIFreeXP> entries to 0 or whatever you want them to be.

That's a great idea. I didn't realise this information was in an xml

I've attached the modified file to this post, for anyone who doesn't feel like editing it themselves. It goes in \Assets\XML\Gameinfo, after you unzip it of course. I've just removed all of the AI's free xp


I modded the Fall Farther xml though, so I can't guarantee it will work with FFH

 

[Nikis-Knight]

It isn't meant as a balancing factor between each of the difficulty levels, nor as an assistance for the AI players, it is meant as a way for difficulty level to actually be meaningful when you are running a variable difficulty challenge mode.

I'm not sure how you conclude this. I think it can be all of the above.
FfH is more tactical and more combat focused than basic civ. Economic bonuses aren't enough for AI to compete with players at most difficultly levels, imo.
(That said, I'm not arguing that the current levels are exactly what is best)

 

[darrelljs]

Hey, thanks for updated handicap file .

Darrell

 

[Fafnir13]

Even on lower difficulty levels like monarch, the xp feels a bit much. Let me just list why I think so.

1. The AI's don't pay for their troops in the same way.

This leads to lot's more troops on hand at any given moment the the player can possibly amass without stagnating their economy. Now, the human player has the benefit of better tactics and knowing how to keep their veterans alive. Throw in a little magic and a player can usually deal with the massive stacks the AI can throw around. Unfortunately:

2. The AI gets production bonuses.

I have had games stagnate horribly as my elites just get worn down taking down stack after stack of units the AI keeps sending. The most annoying I've ever encountered mid-game are royal guards. High defense with a few free promotions can take it's toll on even the best used veteran units. And let's not forget:

3. Veteran units can die at any time.

We've all seen the 99% death of a hero. It sucks, but it's just going to happen. Now, once your veteran units start dropping, the AI really has the advantage. Any unit you produce will be inferior to any unit they've just produced. Early game, where you can get a tech advantage, this isn't so bad. A 3 star warrior vs an iron axeman isn't going to do so well. But once the end game comes, when the AI has half a continent producing arquebuses...
Stagnation of the worst kind.

It seems, from games I've played, that the player is forced to rely on magic and heroes to survive. While this is just fine and can make for great gameplay, what happens when the AI gets a better handle on things? We see the occasional glimpse of this doom when large numbers of pire zombies and catapults show up.

Well, that's my input on it, for what it's worth.

 

[JonathanStrange]

It seems, from games I've played, that the player is forced to rely on magic and heroes to survive. While this is just fine and can make for great gameplay, what happens when the AI gets a better handle on things? We see the occasional glimpse of this doom when large numbers of pire zombies and catapults show up.

Well, that's my input on it, for what it's worth.

I agree, to the extent that I've seen this in many of my Deity level games in the early game stages.

Picture: The Ljosalfars are invaded early by stacks of highly-promoted enemy axemen or swordmen. On the pangaea maps, I play, often from more than one civ. I find myself relying on the early Elven hero Gilden Silveric being able to successfully defend against several enemy stacks attacking Evermore. And he can do it, but still - an entire nation survival hanging on a hero's winning battle after battle?

It sort of makes any other early Elven strategy very secondary. Many seem to ignore Archery, but at Deity, the Ljosalfars need someone who can go toe-to-toe over and over against enemy stacks because their newly recruited archers and warriors are already outclassed as well as outnumbered.

That's the way it is for the Ljos in the early game but it does get better later on. Mostly because we humans know how to use magic, the civics, target cities, etc.

 

[xienwolf]

It is mostly off topic, but I must say that I wish people would remember that you are not meant to be able to win on Deity unless your tactics are ABSOLUTELY flawless. Deity should only be fun for perfectionists, everyone else should find it massively annoying and pointless. Instead, we have many people who complain about things which are done to enhance the AI because "While I was playing at Deity, I noticed that..." (Note, not meaning it to directly pertain to the arguments here, as we are discussing ALL difficulty levels and being productive here. But I feel guilty if I bring it up in a thread where it IS relevant because it feels too much like flame-bait)


Anyway, I do agree that a Charismatic style approach is the better option for the difficulty and XP interaction, ESPECIALLY since it scales up and down better for Variable Difficulty games (if you get beat down and the difficulty starts to drop, those troops which already exist for the AI won't get another level for quite some time)

 

[WarKirby]

It is mostly off topic, but I must say that I wish people would remember that you are not meant to be able to win on Deity unless your tactics are ABSOLUTELY flawless. Deity should only be fun for perfectionists,

If this is meant to be the case, then some of the challenge options really need looking at.

Starting on lower difficulties, you often end up building up a powerful empire, taking the lead, and crushing everything. Starting on higher difficulties, you usually get crushed because the AI has 10 free warriors, 2 settlers, and a few fre workers, right at the start, and a constant tech lead.

It seems, the happy medioum, is to start a t a reasonable difficulty, and use Increasing Difficulty to gradually ramp things up But there are no options to cap it at immortal. It just keeps right on going until it hits the highest.

There's also no option in the worldbuilder, to adjust the difficulty of a game in progress, which means if the game ramps up to a bad difficulty and you're not enjoying it, hours of empire building are down the drain.

Deity being impossible would be fine, if we had more finegrained control over which difficulty we're actually playing.