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Free Troops from King for War

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by OzzyKP, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

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    I mentioned this in another thread and was asked to take it elsewhere, so here ya go:

    When the king declares war on someone and I ask for troops, the player gets a huge boost to their military. A man of war and some royal troops is often enough to start conquering. In a recent game I eliminated the British just with these royal troops. Does the AI European power also get additional troops from their king too? When I conquering the Brits they didn't have any royal troops, that gives a pretty big advantage to the human player.
     
  2. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    I agree that we should look into this. It's simply unfair on the AI and there's no real reason why its king should not provide reinforcements as well. Just imagine if the AI pulled this stunt on the player, getting a free Man-o-War and some assorted troops for free.
     
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  3. Hecur

    Hecur Chieftain

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    The ai always chooses to improve the realtions with the king instead the troops
     
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Me too. :thumbsup:
    It seems that DLL-Diplo-Event is currentry really overpowered.
    We should reduce the number of Units given by the King again.

    That is ok for me as well. :thumbsup:
    Should be a pretty easy to implement.
     
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  5. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    Oh no. I love this event...
     
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  6. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    Why make it a choice at all? If there is war in Europe, either the relevent Kings provide troops for their colonies, or they don't.

    Maybe the King could instead set a mission? Deliver X tons of Y goods in Z turns, and I'll be able to provide these troops to you.

    And after the war is over, the troops should go back.
     
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  7. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

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    I like that. Another idea is to just have the kings intervene directly with troops under their own control.
     
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  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I do as well. :thumbsup:

    I do not want to remove it completely either, do not worry.
    I would not like to simply throw away effort invested in a feature that is generally working well.

    I just think we need to rebalance the free troops given by the king. (in XML. Beceause it is currently just a bit too much.)
    And additionally spawn Miliatry Units for the other Europea Nation you start a War with. (So it can defend a bit better.)

    Edit:

    The current balancing of the DLL-Diplo-Event "European Wars" is way too overpowered.

    You get 6 Land Military Units (4 Hessian Mecenaries and 2 Royal Artilleries) instead of 4 (4 2 Hessian Mecenaries and 2 Royal Artilleries) as in old RaR releases - and 4 was already much.
    And you still also get the "Royal Ship of the Line" as well.

    Everybody who wants to change this for his personal taste can still do it in XML.
    But we should have those features well balanced in our Releases to community.

    Edit 2:

    - Let us reduce to 3 Land Units (2 Hessians, 1 Artlillery) and 1 Ship of the Line (which is still a really nice generous reward for doing what the King wants)
    - Let us thus also reduce the "tax rate punishment / reward" in the other 2 options (for refusing / accepting without troops) from 5 to 3
    - Let us give the European Nation you declare War to the same reinforcement.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
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  9. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    @team:
    Let me know if that is ok for you.

    I could probably implement and test it as suggested this weekend.
    I consider it a "balancing fix" actually and thus it should be included in next upcoming "Fixes and Improvement Release".
     
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  10. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Edit:
    Ok, it is implemented and tested as described here and will probalby be shipped with next "Improvement Release":
    (Since there were no voices against it.)

    The Event itself is of course still there.
    (All of balancing options in XML are still there as well of couse, so adjustmet to personal taste is possible.)

    If there should be any reasons against it, it can still be reverted easily.
    But it should be fairer and more balanced that way.

    The real difference is, that the European Nation you declare Wart to also gets (the same) reinforcement from his king.
    (It is explained in the text message as well that the other King also sent reinforcements because your King did.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  11. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    What would happen if the event would be changed as follows: The Player get's the units as long as the war lasts? As soon as the war is over the king wants back his troops after xy turns…?
     
  12. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Currently hard to do, because we would need to store / cash somewhere which exact Units the King has given you so these exact troops could be given back.
    Such a storage / cash does not exist. A lot of work which I currently see no benefit with. :dunno:

    Also, many players would hate it if they get a "special reward" and we would take it away again after x turns.
    That might be very frustrating for many.

    And even if we give back the Units to the King after X turns, we would still need to keep the reinforcements limitted / balanced.
    Overwise you could still snowball the other European Player while you have them.
    That is probably not a good game play decision (because it would be unfair - especially in Multi-Player).

    I will rather keep my fingers of that.
    Do you really feel that is necessary?

    Right now the DLL-Diplo event is relatively balanced and everything should be fine. :dunno:
    (Both sides get the same reinforcements and reinforcements are not overpowered enought to totally snowball your enemy.)
     
  13. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    I'm not sure why it would be hard to keep track of the gifted units, since they are units we can't normally build on our own. After X number of turns after the end of the war, all of your Hessians and Royal Artillery return to Europe?

    The problems with keeping the units are 1) it's a bit unimmersive, isn't it, and 2) okay the war with the other colony is over now, but what's to keep me from using those gifted units from crushing a different AI colony or native nation instead?
     
  14. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Because there are other souces for such Units as well. (e.g. Founding Fathers and other Events)
    We cannot simply say "Peace kills all Hessian Mercenaries, all Ships of the Line, all Royal Artilleries".

    Also the game technically does not even know anymore that those Units are "King only" - once generated for Colonial European Players.
    It could be figured out again of course by coding new functions and check "UnitTypes" for Nations of all existing Units which is effort though and really not performant because you would need to loop through all Units.

    It could also mess up Scenarios that somebody else creates with World Builder.
    Just imagine somebody explicitely creates a Scneario and gives the Player a few "Royal Units".
    Should we really purposely limit / break such Scenarios?

    And most importantly it is about "taking away once given rewards from Players again", which might be very frustrating.

    I also still see no problem that the King is "gifting you a few Units" if you fight his wars. :dunno:
    (If it is reasonably balanced of course.)

    Summary:
    I keep my fingers of that. :dunno:
    Too many reasons for me not to do it and no convincing reason for me to spend the effort.

    But if there is a problem with the current implementation:
    It is really easy to remove again and restore to previous version.
    Still feel however that the new version is more balanced.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  15. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    You did not address the issue of turning those king-granted units onto other powers that have not received the benefit of free units.

    Perhaps the king-granted units could have a unique promotion marking them as on loan from Europe? Then units with those promotions could be recalled.

    It could also be a diplo event; return the units, or suffer a large rep loss with the King and an automatic 5% tax increase?
     
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  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    That is true but since you get less Units now, it is not as big of an issue as before.

    Guys, everything is "theoretically" possible if you create solutions that are really complex and need lots of effort. :thumbsup:
    But somebody skilled enough to do it needs to be motivated enough to do it.

    In this case it really does not sound reasonable to me. :dunno:
    (New Promotion just for withdrawing a Unit, forbiddig that new Promotion in normal Promotion System otherwise, new withdraw mechanic in DLL, new DLL-Diplo-Event, changing the existing DLL-Diplo-Event to set the Promotions ...)

    And as I already said I am worried about "player frustration" when taking away rewards (for doing as the King requests) or otherwise punishing the player.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  17. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    That is not completely correct.
    AI will not choose any of the DLL-Diplo-Options because it cannot handle DLL-Diplo-Events directly or make appropriate decisions considering game strategy like Humans can.

    But for every DLL-Diplo-Event there is a "compensation logic" in DLL that gives AI comparably strong rewards as well.
    (Sometimes it gets Units like in the DLL-Diplo-Event, sometimes it gets gold, sometimes it gets ...)

    None of the DLL-Diplo-Events is a "Human Only" feature.
    AIs just handle them completely different.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  18. CptBadger

    CptBadger Chieftain

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    I dont like changing the ship unless we also include a granted/loaned transport ship that can carry those units. First thing I usually do in this event is throw 3 Hessians and a royal Art onto the man o war, and sail it toward the enemy. Have it give a ship of the line And a carrack or brigantine, and I'm in. Otherwise I'd say leave it alone. It's the only current way to get a ship that can compete in WoI.

    I also dont like the "returning units" concept. Either he sends forces under his command to assist, or he permanently reassigns troops to my command. Just my opinion. I agree with lowering current amount of land forces, though I'd prefer 3 Hes, 1 Art.
     
  19. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Nothing considering the ship was changed.
    (Only both sides get it now.)

    That suggestion is pretty much dead unless all team members agree to it.
    I do not know yet how the others feel about it but currently however I would not want it either.

    All old XML balancing options for personal taste are still there. :thumbsup:
    (So everybody can increase or further decrease the number of reinforcement troops in his personal local copy.)
     
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  20. CptBadger

    CptBadger Chieftain

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    Edit 2:

    - Let us reduce to 3 Land Units (2 Hessians, 1 Artlillery) and 1 Ship of the Line (which is still a really nice generous reward for doing what the King wants)
    - Let us thus also reduce the "tax rate punishment / reward" in the other 2 options (for refusing / accepting without troops) from 5 to 3
    - Let us give the European Nation you declare War to the same reinforcement.[/QUOTE]

    Saw you say this above a ways, SotL wouldnt transport. But if not gonna happen I'm cool with it.
     

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