Free upgrade of hopelessly backwards civs?

[Ethric]

I wrote this in the Civ RNG-thread at first, but realized it was completely OT so made a new thread instead. It is a response to me and Commander Bello wanting a retooling of the combat engine to make it so that hopelessly backwards units can't kill a fresh modern unit in one attack, a change a lot of people object to (and which isn't the topic of this thread).

This suggestion is to prevent the sillyness of fighting archers with helicopters and similar scenarios. I give myself >99.9% in odds that this has been suggested on this forum previously, but well, here goes Round figures and estimates of course.

-weapon/units technology all get a certain value
-units that are less than half of the world average value, counted by civs or maybe by every unit in the world, gets bumped up in weaponery (and strenght, naturally following)
-this bump-up could be done using existing units in some cases, like when most civs have infantry, a civ still using swords would get them upgraded to muskets. But new units might have to be added for this purpose to get things to add up
-upgrade done for free, humans get asked if they want to, AI's should accept (really no good reason not to).
-I don't figure it would open for much exploitability in tactics, by keeping at a low level etc, as it would only get bumped a bit up, but not anywhere near the level of the best teched civs. They'd still steamroll you if they tried.
-another stopguard vs exploiting could be that it checks whether you have the tech to build units that would not make you obsolete enough to qualify for the bump-up. If you do, no dice. If you don't, you get the required techs too. But rather not have this check as the point of the suggestion is to avoid the sillyness of seeing warriors and archers in the modern age.

-another possiblity is to apply a check on tech directly, granting weapon techs to hopelessly backwards civs for free, and offer free/severyly discounted upgrades to units. The basis of this is that if you see all of the worlds other civs using infantry units, there really is no reason for why you should have to invent gunpowder the same as they did. Monkey see, monkey do.

Again, it should be made so that purposefully hanging back, ignoring lines of research alltogheter, would not be a viable exploit, as you'd only be bumped up enough to avoid any war becoming a farce, but not near enough to prevent being splatted against equal numbers. Riflemen vs Mechanized Infantry, for example.

 

[Spearthrower]

Just another gamey element added on to it.

For me, no thanks!

All up for a mod or a check box for it in the options though!

 

[Ethric]

Yeah, too much work and effort, fiddling to get the right numbers etc, to warrant as a feature of it's own, seeing as it's not that big a problem. And if it is, maybe one plays at too low a difficulty. But I like writing stuff down when I have an idea, and it's fun to discuss it with others. Especially while passing time at work on a friday afternoon

 

[Spearthrower]

It's a bit like how the Barbs work really I guess... they dont actually research for themselves as far as I can see, but take a low average of the world's tech as their own.

I loved in the vanilla civ seeing the Barbs building wonders, capturing religions and creating really large empires with massive cities - I just dont seem to see that anymore!!

 

[MrCynical]

Doesn't seem a good idea to me. It seems a complicated (and very difficult to balance system) that isn't going to add a lot. I'd just put in a cosmetic change to ancient-medieval units of all civs once a significant number of civs are in the later ages so it looks less silly. Count them as extremely badly trained and equipped troops, but in a more modern style.

 

[Arlborn]

I loved in the vanilla civ seeing the Barbs building wonders, capturing religions and creating really large empires with massive cities - I just dont seem to see that anymore!!

You didn't see my last game with raging barbarians!
it makes really a lot of difference to play a large map(highland) with 11 civs, but...NO OCEAN! Haha plenty of spot to barbarian spawn :S I am now even feeling cheap because I built the great wall :S

The situation was so bad that I had to enter WB and gift the last 2 civs a bunch of settlers and archers for the sake of fun! They had only 1 city each while other had so many more!

You won't believe the quantity of barbarian workers building roads from one barbarian city to the other! I NEVER saw it!

 

[RedRalph]

I support this idea. Would add to realism, and, if youre halfway decent as a player wont cause you to lose any wars you were going to win anyhow. Definitely gets my thumbs up

 

[snipafist]

Why not simply add a feature that for every civ you are in contact with that has a tech, you gain a bonus to researching it? This means that it's hard to get completely left behind in the tech race and is quite realistic. It's difficult to come up with electricity, but seeing how other countries do it and mimicking it is relatively easy.

 

[RedRalph]

Why not simply add a feature that for every civ you are in contact with that has a tech, you gain a bonus to researching it? This means that it's hard to get completely left behind in the tech race and is quite realistic. It's difficult to come up with electricity, but seeing how other countries do it and mimicking it is relatively easy.

apparently techs get cheaper the more civs that have it. but not nearly enough IMO. I hate the situation where I have ICBMs and the lowest on the scoreboard has only got Musketmen. and its not because I'm on tooo low a level, Noble is the highest one I can win on

 

[nbcman]

@ RedRalphWiggum
If one of the AIs are behind then that should mean that the obsolete AI should be marked for elimination. I wouldn't allow a 'free' upgrade. If the AIs are that far behind then you should have won a long time ago if you are in the modern era and the AI is just getting to gunpowder.
If you have problems with it, just go into WB and 'gift' the backward AIs some units and techs.

 

[RedRalph]

I said THE most backward, not all of them

 

[Goodgimp]

I don't understand why you'd want to give backwards civs new techs. If they are a backwards civ, then they are ripe for assimilation into another empire, whether it be to the player or another AI power. If they want a leg up, they can vassalize themselves to another power, which they are able and oftentimes do.

I don't like artificial constraints where the ones far behind get leg ups or the ones far ahead get massive roadblocks. Small adjustments are fine, but everyone starts out the game on an even keel. If a Civ has played badly, I see no reason to boost them. They lose, game over, good luck next time.

 

[toft]

Why not simply add a feature that for every civ you are in contact with that has a tech, you gain a bonus to researching it? This means that it's hard to get completely left behind in the tech race and is quite realistic. It's difficult to come up with electricity, but seeing how other countries do it and mimicking it is relatively easy.

I like this idea. Should be expensive to be the tech leader, and then decrease in cost/beakers the farther back in tech one is. This would give a strategic element, that wouldnt always encourage you to be number 1 in tech - but might want to settle for number 2 for a lower cost. Imagine a racetrack for a second, you can save fuel by staying in the slipstream of the leading car, and finally end up with an advantage...

And now we are at it... wasnt it AC that had prototype productions for units? Would be cool if the first unit in that particular class, would have a 100% cost/hammers. And you couldnt upgrade other units before a prototype was built.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Good Idea, I'd say implement it a bit more like this

1. Techs are already cheaper the more civs have them, Increase that function OR add on a feature where techs get cheaper the more turns [adjusted for speed of course] another civ has had them.

So if 1 other Civ has had a tech for 50 turns you get 2x the bonus for researching it as if that civ had the tech for 25 turns (right now you get the same bonus)

and extend the impact of that function. Right now it can only give you something like a +30% bonus... make it more like a +300% bonus (if everyone else in the world has had the tech for 100 turns)

Add on the ability to upgrade to an Obsolete unit for a reduced Price. so once you have Riflemen, upgrading an Archer to a Longbow is still possible and you get a discount.

That way

1. No one falls too far behind in tech
2. Units tend to keep up with the times

of course another option is give each unit era-specific graphics, so that it doesn't look wierd (even though it is only strength 2 and Shock hurts it, and it can get City Raider, it looks like a little gunman/guy with a shotgun in the Modern Age.)

I'd definitely try and keep the tech thing though.

 

[Ethric]

Why not simply add a feature that for every civ you are in contact with that has a tech, you gain a bonus to researching it? This means that it's hard to get completely left behind in the tech race and is quite realistic. It's difficult to come up with electricity, but seeing how other countries do it and mimicking it is relatively easy.

This is good. Much more elegant and logical than what I suggested. If this is already incorporated, it should IMO be ramped up quite a bit. A 25% decrease in cost per civ in contact for example, but with diminishing returns (a tech costing 10000 gets a cost of 7500, 5625, 4219. 3164, etc for each known civ having the tech). Perhaps add that you need open borders to get the full 25% reduction, just contact and no OB means say 10%. But ahahaa, you say, oughtn't spying be involved somehow? Nah. The reduction would be based on seeing the tech used fairly openly, don't really need spying for that. Though some techs are more in plain sight than others, but I don't really think one need differentiate.

edit: and add time as a factor, like Krikkitone said. Using the numbers I mentioned above, one could say that you get the 25% and 10% reductions only once you have been in contact with a civ possessing the tech for 100 turns, using the highest numbers first. So if you have seen civ A using it for 100 turns and civ B using it for 50 turns and have OB with both, you get a 25% recuction in cost first, then a 12.5% reduction off that number. Adjust for OB or not. Numbers would be updated on a realtime basis, meaning a terminated OB agreement could mean the tech you are currently researching got a bit more expensive to finish, but i see no oroblem with this. You get a lot of fiddly numbers and stuff along the way, but it would all be behind the scenes, no worries for the player. Numbers used just as examples, as always.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ Technically they aren't reductions in cost, what it gives is a bonus to research you put into the tech (so a 1005 bonus doesn't give you the tech instantly, instead it means you can research the Rest of it in 1/2 the time.

 

[Ethric]

Does it matter which way you view it, if the result is the same? Or am I missing your point, maybe?

 

[Quagga]

How about this: Gain extra war weariness every time you use modern weapons against a backwards opponent. This reflect your populace's disgust of your heavy-handed military tactics.

Maybe this isn't solving the problem as you see it. Still, it has the ring of realism to it.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Does it matter which way you view it, if the result is the same? Or am I missing your point, maybe?

Well imagine you are 1/2 done with a tech, and the game decides to change the Cost of it by 1/2 ... you instantly get the tech.

On the other hand if you get a 100% bonus, then only the rest of the time to research the tech goes down by 1/2 (and you can keep adding on calculations easily)

 

[Spearthrower]

Why not simply add a feature that for every civ you are in contact with that has a tech, you gain a bonus to researching it? This means that it's hard to get completely left behind in the tech race and is quite realistic. It's difficult to come up with electricity, but seeing how other countries do it and mimicking it is relatively easy.

There's a mod that's been out a long time that emulates trade routes spreading technological knowledge.... can't remember the name but it will be something like "Trade Routes Spread Tech"!