French teacher murdered for Muhammad

[Estebonrober]

After the contested lesson, an angry parent posted a video on YouTube complaining about the teacher. On Friday night, another parent posted below the video, defending the professor, writing: “I am a parent of a student at this college. The teacher just showed caricatures from Charlie Hebdo as part of a history lesson on freedom of expression. He asked the Muslim students to leave the classroom if they wished, out of respect … He was a great teacher. He tried to encourage the critical spirit of his students, always with respect and intelligence. This evening, I am sad, for my daughter, but also for teachers in France. Can we continue to teach without being afraid of being killed?”

The video was taken down on Friday night.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...man-dead-after-knife-attack-near-paris-school

This is awful and I know this might not be a popular take, but wth is wrong with Islam? Their zealots are heads above the rest it seems to me.

 

[Zardnaar]

After the contested lesson, an angry parent posted a video on YouTube complaining about the teacher. On Friday night, another parent posted below the video, defending the professor, writing: “I am a parent of a student at this college. The teacher just showed caricatures from Charlie Hebdo as part of a history lesson on freedom of expression. He asked the Muslim students to leave the classroom if they wished, out of respect … He was a great teacher. He tried to encourage the critical spirit of his students, always with respect and intelligence. This evening, I am sad, for my daughter, but also for teachers in France. Can we continue to teach without being afraid of being killed?”

The video was taken down on Friday night.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...man-dead-after-knife-attack-near-paris-school

This is awful and I know this might not be a popular take, but wth is wrong with Islam? Their zealots are heads above the rest it seems to me.

Read the Koran it's all there in black and white. Bibles a lot more open to interpretation.

 

[Narz]

This is awful and I know this might not be a popular take

Popular is not important, the truth is the truth, the calls for violence in the Koran are not subtle.

but wth is wrong with Islam?

Its primitive, violent and intolerant.

Their zealots are heads above the rest it seems to me.

Yes. To be fair when Christianity was Islam's age it was probably even worse

But yeah, the **** is gross

And much respect to ex-Muslims, its very hard to break away from, you can really get shunned (or worse)

 

[Estebonrober]

Read the Koran it's all there in black and white. Bibles a lot more open to interpretation.

Popular is not important, the truth is the truth, the calls for violence in the Koran are not subtle.


Its primitive, violent and intolerant.


Yes. To be fair when Christianity was Islam's age it was probably even worse

But yeah, the **** is gross

And much respect to ex-Muslims, its very hard to break away from, you can really get shunned (or worse)

Clearly not the entirety of Islam should be painted with this brush, but jsut like radical Christians those that are guilty of radical violence of this nature are terrible people and make terrible representatives of their respective religions. If I recall someone burnt down a planned parenthood jsut this past week. So its not like its all squeaky clean with Christianity or anything (not to mention this "Christian Nationalist" movement which is on a similar level as ISIS). That said decapitating a teacher with a kitchen knife is horrible gruesome and disgusting act and it deserves to be talked about especially considering the aggravating conditions. No one has outside of Islam is obligated in anyway to honor the tenants of Islam in regards to their prophet.

 

[Zardnaar]

Clearly not the entirety of Islam should be painted with this brush, but jsut like radical Christians those that are guilty of radical violence of this nature are terrible people and make terrible representatives of their respective religions. If I recall someone burnt down a planned parenthood jsut this past week. So its not like its all squeaky clean with Christianity or anything (not to mention this "Christian Nationalist" movement which is on a similar level as ISIS). That said decapitating a teacher with a kitchen knife is horrible gruesome and disgusting act and it deserves to be talked about especially considering the aggravating conditions. No one has outside of Islam is obligated in anyway to honor the tenants of Islam in regards to their prophet.

Difference is you can reform Christianity and a Christian nutter is violating what Jesus taught.

Muhammed was a warlord, general, prophet all in one and was a lot more clear in using violence.

Jesus never took a wife Muhammed married a kid.

So if you emulate Jesus or Muhammed what ones more violent?

What ISIS got up to in Iraq/Syria isn't that different to Muhammed and the first 4 Caliphs.

 

[Narz]

Clearly not the entirety of Islam should be painted with this brush, but jsut like radical Christians those that are guilty of radical violence of this nature are terrible people and make terrible representatives of their respective religions. If I recall someone burnt down a planned parenthood jsut this past week. So its not like its all squeaky clean with Christianity or anything (not to mention this "Christian Nationalist" movement which is on a similar level as ISIS).

No doubt. All Abrahamic religions are toxic. Christianity as a whole is probably worse at the moment, although only because they possess more overall power.

Difference is you can reform Christianity and a Christian nutter is violating what Jesus taught.

Meh, I don't think you can reform it, neuter it maybe. Jesus may have been mostly pretty soft compared to his dad but the old testament is full of calls for violence (kill your neighbor if you catch him working on the sabbath, kill your bride if you find out she's not a virgin, fun stuff like that).

 

[Kyriakos]

Difference is you can reform Christianity and a Christian nutter is violating what Jesus taught.

Eh, christianity isn't just Jesus. What if a christian goes by the old testament?

Also, people do die in the acts of the apostles as well, often for very little - for example a couple dies cause it gives less money to the christian community than it pledged to - iirc lied about how much money they had and wanted to pretend they gave all. But they paid with their life for that lie

Not that I care about islam either, or the mosaic law, or other religions.

 

[Zardnaar]

No doubt. All Abrahamic religions are toxic. Christianity as a whole is probably worse at the moment, although only because they possess more overall power.


Meh, I don't think you can reform it, neuter it maybe. Jesus may have been mostly pretty soft compared to his dad but the old testament is full of calls for violence (kill your neighbor if you catch him working on the sabbath, kill your bride if you find out she's not a virgin, fun stuff like that).

True but Christians generally mean follower of Christ.

He kinda obsoleted a lot of the old testament. Love thy neighbor, swords to plowshares etc.

Alot of the old testament is also an account if the time not exactly commanding you to murder gays or whatever.

 

[Kyriakos]

True but Christians generally mean follower of Christ.

He kinda obsoleted a lot of the old testament. Love thy neighbor, swords to plowshares etc.

Alot of the old testament is also an account if the time not exactly commanding you to murder gays or whatever.

I don't think you have read the old testament. It is pretty much an ode to genocide
Besides, Islam is tied to both Christianity and the jewish religion. Christ is a prophet in Islam.

That said, I don't doubt that currently the muslims are more into violence than the other regional religions. Probably cause most of the muslim world is in third-world state (or fourth world, if you are Pakistan or Afganistan or other centralasianistans).

 

[sendos]

It's good to see people here talking about the toxicity of the religions of Abraham, particularly Islam.

There is no way to talk critically about Islam without either (a) being branded an Islamophobe, like as if being Muslim is the new LGBTI or (b) having death threats thrown at you by Muslim extremists.

 

[Kyriakos]

It's good to see people here talking about the toxicity of the religions of Abraham, particularly Islam.

There is no way to talk critically about Islam without either (a) being branded an Islamophobe, like as if being Muslim is the new LGBTI or (b) having death threats thrown at you by Muslim extremists.

Til about intersex being distinct from the rest. When will Agnostic be added?

 

[H4run]

First I'm totally agree that people cannot brushed all Muslim with the same color, and we cannot merged ISIS folks and Global Jihadist paramilitary with Muslim common folks, should I judge all American based on what their government and apparatus do?

But if you chose to brush all Muslim with the same color, deny it if you want, but in the essence you are no different than the shooter at the Chirst-Church New-Zealand, those guy also concluded that our existence as the source of the problem, hence they bring up gun and start solving the problem by chipping away our existence, but good luck there is billions of us and that would only radicalized some people even more, because it's build within our dna trying to survive from a threat.

If we believe as @Zardnaar said: Islam and the Muslim are irredeemable in quality, so what else can you do except just wipe us away? And ending up doing worst than what the 18 years old did, when he get agitated to kill the teacher, he mistook his intention to teach free-speech as a way to mock his religion, he mistook a stimulant that is neutral and seen it as something negative.

But some nationalist even don't need any sort of provocation to start doing their carnage (not a kill, a carnage), the beard, the hijab and the mosque are enough stimulant to trigger their primal instinct. And it's everywhere.

I think if we cannot talk about this in sense it will just bring more harm than the benefit.

the new LGBTI

Very nice I like it, all of these are group are the oppressed, the misunderstood, the discriminated and the generalized in the West. I think in the Western context it can be a correct grouping. Well done!

 

[Zardnaar]

First I'm totally agree that people cannot brushed all Muslim with the same color, and we cannot merged ISIS folks and Global Jihadist paramilitary with Muslim common folks, should I judge all American based on what their government and apparatus do?

But if you chose to brush all Muslim with the same color, deny it if you want, but in the essence you are no different than the shooter at the Chirst-Church New-Zealand, those guy also concluded that our existence as the source of the problem, hence they bring up gun and start solving the problem by chipping away our existence, but good luck there is billions of us and that would only radicalized some people even more, because it's build within our dna trying to survive from a threat.

If we believe as @Zardnaar said: Islam and the Muslim are irredeemable in quality, so what else can you do except just wipe us away? And ending up doing worst than what the 18 years old did, when he get agitated to kill the teacher, he mistook his intention to teach free-speech as a way to mock his religion, he mistook a stimulant that is neutral and seen it as something negative.

But some nationalist even don't need any sort of provocation to start doing their carnage (not a kill, a carnage), the beard, the hijab and the mosque are enough stimulant to trigger their primal instinct. And it's everywhere.

I think if we cannot talk about this in sense it will just bring more harm than the benefit.





Very nice I like it, all of these are group are the oppressed, the misunderstood, the discriminated and the generalized in the West. I think in the Western context it can be a correct grouping. Well done!

Most Muslims are fine. But there's a lot of them and if even 1% directly or indirectly support extremism your gonna have problems.

Even moderate Muslims are going to have issues with LGBT rights and things like female rights in a modern liberal system. That's not the nutters and even if it's only 10-20% still adds up to a lot.

I don't have a very high opinion of christianity either espicially the US style evangelicals but even they aren't as bad as Saudi Arabia or Iran, throw in Afghanistan as well.

 

[Hrothbern]

Every group with a strong group culture chips away for group members some of the authority of the Public State as inevitable side effect.
Whatever you write down formally on paper is theory and has therefore limitations compared to the practical realities of strong group dynamics.
Always a gliding scale.

When a football player makes a very rough tackle, it is not a court of the Public State that comes typically in action, but the localclub-regional-national-international Football Association.who punishes that player.
That chips away some of the Public State, but it is accepted by the Public State because the corrective effect is there. Most of all the preventive effect.

IDK how it is in detail in other countries, but the same "in-group" justice takes place in NL with professions like medical doctors, like GPs and specialists... with judges, lawyers... with notaries... and also priests etc of churches.
A remnant of the old peer-to-peer justice among nobility, of the old Guild justice adapted over time when the region, country-area, nation state became on their turns dominant.
And in fact not that much differing when you are part of some group going the evening out and one of you is always at risk of causing a brawl. There you will also in-group give the warning again, grab him again before something gets worse... and if he does not learn, ban him from your group as punishment when you go the evening out.

A religion is not for all its believers organised as strictly as a Football Association, but when one or more of "its members" do something against the Public State they live in, they will have to make clear they disagree by statements and punishments.
The degree of resonsibility of a religious group has to compensate for the amount chipped away from the public state.
It is up to the Imams in France to take clear position to increase prevention of this violence.
The French Public State has to treat the situation in a way to protect its citizens and its laws.

The people involved should be punished by both the Public State as the Imams.
Just like a football player who causes excessive damage to another player will be punished by the Public State AND by a Football Association (like banned for a period of time or life)

 

[Zkribbler]

This is awful and I know this might not be a popular take, but wth is wrong with Islam? Their zealots are heads above the rest it seems to me.

In the US, Christian terrorists vastly outnumber Muslim terrorists.

 

[Estebonrober]

In the US, Christian terrorists vastly outnumber Muslim terrorists.

Yea I think this is pretty obvious

 

[Ajidica]

This is awful and I know this might not be a popular take, but wth is wrong with Islam? Their zealots are heads above the rest it seems to me.

Looking at developed western countries, we could equally be asking what is wrong with white men? We had Elliot Rodgers, Dylan Roof, Adam Lanza, the Las Vegas shooter, and I believe the El Paso and Dayton shooters who were all wrapped up in some variant of right-wing racism/woman-hating culture. They were loner, disaffected wierdos, often with substantial mental health issues.
Looking at terrorist attacks in Europe over the last few years, we see similar patterns. The leader of the Paris theater attacker had been in and out of jail on small time drug charges and was regarded by his acquaintances as a screw-up, and I believe one of the attackers in the UK was suffering from severe schizophrenia.
Going back to the biggest terrorist attack, 9/11, the translation of their diaries don't show devout people well versed in Muslim theology. Their diaries and letters show people deeply unfamiliar with Muslim theology; such as reminding each other to say daily prayers - and then proceeding to include the text of the prayer, or talking about their lives as having been 'wasted', when I'm led to understand that a core tenant of Muslim theology across denominations is that a life cannot be wasted.

It should go without saying, but this murder is a tragedy. It should also be noted all we know about the killer is that he was an 18 year old Chechen.

 

[Estebonrober]

Looking at developed western countries, we could equally be asking what is wrong with white men? We had Elliot Rodgers, Dylan Roof, Adam Lanza, the Las Vegas shooter, and I believe the El Paso and Dayton shooters who were all wrapped up in some variant of right-wing racism/woman-hating culture. They were loner, disaffected wierdos, often with substantial mental health issues.
Looking at terrorist attacks in Europe over the last few years, we see similar patterns. The leader of the Paris theater attacker had been in and out of jail on small time drug charges and was regarded by his acquaintances as a screw-up, and I believe one of the attackers in the UK was suffering from severe schizophrenia.
Going back to the biggest terrorist attack, 9/11, the translation of their diaries don't show devout people well versed in Muslim theology. Their diaries and letters show people deeply unfamiliar with Muslim theology; such as reminding each other to say daily prayers - and then proceeding to include the text of the prayer, or talking about their lives as having been 'wasted', when I'm led to understand that a core tenant of Muslim theology across denominations is that a life cannot be wasted.

It should go without saying, but this murder is a tragedy. It should also be noted all we know about the killer is that he was an 18 year old Chechen.

Yes, and here I'm stuck trying to balance what I feel like broad attacks on Islam from one side and this which I consider a piece of denialism. Yes he is Chechen, but the murder is clearly religiously motivated, and clearly extremely gruesome. Its also over something extremely petty which brings back my actual criticism of Islam here, you do not get to enforce the tenets of your faith on others in this way. It is shocking and stupid.

I agree that it is better than some of our right wing attacks here in that is not indiscriminate at least. There is definitely issues with males and social isolation.

 

[amadeus]

But what about the Christian radicals?

It’s not state policy in most Christian countries to decapitate or stone to death atheists, or Jews, or gays, or ex-Christians, or unmarried women who have accused a man of adultery.

It’s not state policy to ban the showing of religious icons in private publications. It’s not state policy to have an official religion one must adhere to, with a separate judiciary.

This kind of barbarism isn’t supported by the majority of Christians, at least in the Western world, but it sure seems popular at the policy level in some decidedly non-Christianized Middle East and South Asian countries.

 

[Tee Kay]

The OP question was about ideology, not people. So, Islam, not Muslims.

"Islam" and "white men" aren't of the same category.

We know perpetrators tend to be young, socially-isolated men with health issues. That we can glean from statistics. The far thornier issue is what motivates them to go out and kill.