French teacher murdered for Muhammad

[aelf]

I never really think the weight is heavier to theology than that of "social-justice" and "community survival and self-defense" just like the right-wing extremist based "intention", suicide is a grave sin in Islam (UNFORGIVEN), it's so hard to makes people believe otherwise, except under a strong pretext of fighting great evil for the greater good.

People shouldn't down-play what people can sacrifices and do for a good caused. Some suicide bomb operation in Turkey were executed by left-wing activist, I don't think they did that looking for heaven, most of them were atheist to begin-with.

And it's interesting that you said many of the terrorist mentor and religious teacher are against their act. The West deemed Abdullah Azzam as the father of terrorism, while the ex leader of Taliban Mullah Muhammad Umar as the highest figure in global Jihad world. But do you know that both Abdullah Azzam and Mullah Umar strongly against Osama bin Laden plan to carry out the operation to US civilian? When 911 happened, which was after Azzam passed away, Usama did the operation without consulting to Mullah Umar, which caused tension between Taliban and Al Qaeda, and you know where Usama bin Laden reside at that time? In Iran not in Afghanistan. Both Al Qaeda and Iranian government had an agreement, this was also the reason why there was an absence of terrorist operation in Iran until the conflict in Syria arise. But the invasion to Afghanistan was pretty much an event that once again sealed the Al Qaeda and Taliban alliance to fight one common enemy which is/was America.

And the common Muslim, that people scrutinized and beat the crap out on the street, or shot them in the mosque, don't know an atom of crap about that. By isolating and pressuring them, they just correcting the narration that the global jihad put forward, hence feed more recruitment. So I don't really understand some "leftist" intellect who get flip out ape like to all Muslim whenever a random operation happened. This stuff is very political in nature, and 99% of Muslim crowd don't know jack crap about this.

edit: And the source of contention between ISIS and Al Qaeda were many, one of it is, Al Qaeda forbid ISIS to do an operation in Iran. This was clearly stated by ISIS spokesman Abu Maryam (IIRC the name it was long time ago the research when I was still in Turkey)

That's why I put it down as "theological/ideological arguments". I agree the line between the two is blurry.

There are two broad strains of fundamentalism - one that is ultra-conservative and one that is radical. Radical fundamentalism tends to diverge a lot from the established theological schools, even those that are traditionally more militant. I believe Al Qaeda is of the radical strain, while the Taliban is of the ultra-conservative strain. I'm not surprised at all that they disagree except in the face of a mutual enemy. Same as the Iranian Revolutionary Guard vs. the Ayatollahs and the Guardian Council. That's what I learned anyway.

I also think that there's a difference between people who are simply swept along with a mass movement or with the weight of tradition and people who are active advocates and fighters. I admit I often personally lump the former together with the latter due to how much I disagree with both. But they're different, and the reason(s) they have are different.

 

[Lexicus]

I agree the line between the two is blurry.

Theology is a subset of ideology

 

[aelf]

Drawing such an equivalence is potentially harmful to theology or ideology (depending on your perspective)

 

[Gorbles]

And I've already told you that I didn't mean it medically. I've also explicitly explained what I meant by my initial statement.

I didn't read that, but thanks for clarifying regardless. Could do without the ongoing snark, but I guess it wouldn't be OT without it

 

[innonimatu]

And it's interesting that you said many of the terrorist mentor and religious teacher are against their act. The West deemed Abdullah Azzam as the father of terrorism, while the ex leader of Taliban Mullah Muhammad Umar as the highest figure in global Jihad world. But do you know that both Abdullah Azzam and Mullah Umar strongly against Osama bin Laden plan to carry out the operation to US civilian? When 911 happened, which was after Azzam passed away, Usama did the operation without consulting to Mullah Umar, which caused tension between Taliban and Al Qaeda, and you know where Usama bin Laden reside at that time? In Iran not in Afghanistan. Both Al Qaeda and Iranian government had an agreement, this was also the reason why there was an absence of terrorist operation in Iran until the conflict in Syria arise. But the invasion to Afghanistan was pretty much an event that once again sealed the Al Qaeda and Taliban alliance to fight one common enemy which is/was America.

The american government and especially the israeli have been desperately looking for things to frame the iranians with and justify yet more sanctions or an outright war. And you want us to simply believe that Iran was sheltering OBL and had deals with these enemies n.1 of the US and that was all kept secret and not publicized at all? And that they just happened to murder Massoud despite not being based on and not planning to shelter in Afghanistan?

 

[Ajidica]

When 911 happened, which was after Azzam passed away, Usama did the operation without consulting to Mullah Umar, which caused tension between Taliban and Al Qaeda, and you know where Usama bin Laden reside at that time? In Iran not in Afghanistan.

Could you elaborate on this? When you say bin Laden was in Iran, are you suggesting he was there with the knowledge of the Iranian government? I was under the impression Iran had very tense relations with the Taliban after, I believe it was in 1997, the Taliban killed a couple hundred Iranian inside Afghanistan on religious grounds. Indeed, in the initial operations against Afghanistan US special forces operated alongside Iranian forces:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_uprising_in_Herat

@innonimatu who are you saying was responsible for Massoud's death? I couldn't quite follow your sentence.

 

[innonimatu]

Given the timing, just before the attacks, it was very obvious bin Laden's group did it, anticipating the retaliation against them in Afghanistan where the Northern Alliance played a major role. Massoud was the man who could have stabilized the country.
It was crystal clear that they and the taliban were allies, helping each other and planning already for the fallout.

Trying to blame the iranians is just... let's just say an example of the kind of "fake news" that, in different versions, also feeds the radicalization of islamic fanatics. And example of which this murder also provides.

 

[r16]

ahmet Şah Mesut was killed on Saudi Goverment orders because he was just off to France . Having learned French at high school and highly wary of British SAS operations into the Soviet Union , you know , actual blowing up of industrial stuff and killing people , however and whatever different you might have read about the days . Seen as a grave threat with a solid reputation which relatively survived the fiasco of the lslamist Goverment attempts of 1990s . Could have been a rallying point for Pashtuns breaking away from Taliban when the bombs started falling . lf in doubt , people might remember the French being utterly unpopular with Americans , refusing to take part in the invasion of lraq and bearing their part of the burden to enrich Halliburton . Your choice to decide what this means about the relationship between Bin Ladin and Riyadh .

 

[Ajidica]

Given the timing, just before the attacks, it was very obvious bin Laden's group did it, anticipating the retaliation against them in Afghanistan where the Northern Alliance played a major role. Massoud was the man who could have stabilized the country.
It was crystal clear that they and the taliban were allies, helping each other and planning already for the fallout.

I'm going mainly off of Robert Fisk's take on the Taliban and al Qaeda, but I was under the impression bin Laden and the Taliban weren't exactly close. The Taliban had great respect for bin Laden for fighting Russians, but had no great affinity for his international jihad or more Saudi-influenced takes on Islam and Pashtun culture.

Also, I'm shook, an r16 post I can understand!

 

[innonimatu]

Yes I recall the french being Massoud's main benefactors, and the positive coverage he got in french press. The reason to assassinate him was obviously to do away with someone who could unite an independent Afghanistan, and the people interested in doing away with him were the saudis (who sponsored the Taliban and obviously osl), and possibly anyone who had an imperial project of taking over and remaining in central asia because "instability". Obviously the US.

But to assume someone in the US was in on it, or that Riyadh was making a favuor to the "new american century" people, one might also have to assume that 9/11 was not a surprise for those people... that is terrain I will simply decline to speculate on. There are several ways to fit the known pieces together, that much is true. In none of the do I see Iran working with the saudis!

Robert Fisk is one of few well known western reporters who know the Middle East. But while I believe the other famous brit one Patrick Cockburn is honest, Fisk always struck me as too cozy with the NATO agenda anywhere. Liable to exchange favours if you get what I mean.

 

[Ajidica]

Fisk always struck me as too cozy with the NATO agenda anywhere.

That needs some support as in The Great War for Civilization Fisk is constantly super-critical of NATO or western intervention (or lack thereof) in every context I can think of.

 

[innonimatu]

That needs some support as in The Great War for Civilization Fisk is constantly super-critical of NATO or western intervention (or lack thereof) in every context I can think of.

I won't argue against your point of view, especially because I have nothing more than my observation that Fisk has managed to maintain a remarkable level of access to important people and occupied territories even while being also critic, as you point out. He's certainly better than the vast majority of his colleagues. I just don't trust his pieces as much as I do PC's.

 

[H4run]

Could you elaborate on this? When you say bin Laden was in Iran, are you suggesting he was there with the knowledge of the Iranian government? I was under the impression Iran had very tense relations with the Taliban after, I believe it was in 1997, the Taliban killed a couple hundred Iranian inside Afghanistan on religious grounds. Indeed, in the initial operations against Afghanistan US special forces operated alongside Iranian forces:

Most of my book sources and article are still in Turkey, I moved back to Indonesia with my whole family so I must pick and chose what I can bring and what is not, not to mention at that time I carry lots of commodities that my sister ordered from Turkey. I'm not even sure from which book I read those, it can from The Architect of Global Jihad by Brynjar Lia because I think he was quite acquaintance with the un-translated and thick work of Abu Musab As Suri, who was a very pivotal strategist of Al Qaeda.

The cooperation in Iran was pivotal because of Iran geographical position makes it important for many foreign fighter to cross the border in order to reach Afghanistan from Iran (without going to Pakistan first then Afghanistan), the conflict in Syria with Hezbollah also affecting this infiltration route.

IIRC Usama did went to Saudi, Sudan and even to Iraq to propose his plan and asking for sponsor with no avail and approval, however Iran found a mutual benefit, and I can't find you after 30 min searching on google an exact data/evidence that support my claim that Bin Laden was reside in the border of Iran and Afghanistan (edit: in the Iranian side of the border).

Please noted also the cooperation between the organization and the state was mentioned by ISIS who contested and was denouncing Ayman's leadership. But I better not to go to some jihadist website to find that particular document, because now I got no business and I shouldn't be there, but if I found something related to that from a site like Long War Journal I'll let you know.

 

[H4run]

@Ajidica

This article does not high-lighted the point that I mentioned about Al Qaeda and Iranian relation pre-911, however it's contained an information from Adrian Levy about Al Qaeda and Iran relation after 911. As far as sheltering the Al Qaeda fighters at 4 star hotel in Tehran, also the previous point that I mentioned regarding Al Qaeda proposing a deal with Iraq was mentioned in this article also.

It's really not necessary for Iranian to share ideological similiarity and vision to corporate with Al Qaeda, may I dare to say many country buy the oil that was sold by ISIS even during the arm conflict?.

And some guy want to drag the whole Muslim population and religious tenet and scripture to be responsible to this kind of game? Not you obviously Ajid, you are a rational and balance poster but some really giving a huge headache. Whenever crap happened in some corner of the world, whole Muslim across the universe need to be drag and question in the inquisition chamber by some Sherlock Bigot.

 

[Kyriakos]

The further away from Greece r16's posts are, the less acceleration in space they feature. After all, Newton supposedly was sitting under a red-apple tree when he was lucid and everything is 180 degrees to the other side in Anatolia

That said, Saudi recently (along with ten others in the region) is against Turkey anyway, and I am sure r16 didn't fail to notice.

Also, Erdogan is always good, to show Eu that by now even the public can see how untenable the lack of sanctions against Erdo's Turkey is. Here is Erdo the Illustrious, speaking against checks on radical islam:

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Tuesday criticised his French counterpart Emmanuel Macron's proposal to defend his country's secular values against radical Islam as an "open provocation."


This is the third successive day of Turkish anger at Macron's plan to "liberate Islam in France from foreign influences," adding to a growing list of disputes between the French leader and Erdogan.

Macron last week described Islam as a religion "in crisis" worldwide and said the government would present a bill in December to strengthen a 1905 law that officially separated church and state in France.

He announced stricter oversight of schooling and better control over foreign funding of mosques.

"Macron's statement that 'Islam is in a crisis' is an open provocation beyond disrespect," Erdogan said in a televised address.

"Who are you to talk about the structuring of Islam?" he asked, accusing him of "impertinence."

https://www.france24.com/en/2020100...ance-s-secular-values-view-of-islam-in-crisis

 

[Ajidica]

So, after looking into it a bit, it seems al Qaeda had some contacts with Iran, but no more than they had with any other Middle Eastern state:

Among the themes plucked from the files by The Long War Journal were “new details concerning al-Qaeda’s relationship with Iran.” As it pointed out, the files do, indeed, contain new tactical details, including an account from a senior jihadist of a deal with Iranian authorities to host and train Saudi al-Qaeda members as long as they agreed to plot against their common enemy, American interests in the Gulf region. On its own, that revelation would suggest a degree of operational coordination between the two entities. But according to the account, the al-Qaeda members violated the terms of that agreement, spurring Iranian officials to renege and crack down on the network.

This document and others analyzed to date add texture to but do not alter the fundamental and longstanding understanding of the consistently tense, and occasionally openly hostile, relationship between Iran and al-Qaeda. Other elements in the bin Laden cache reinforce this idea, including a description of al-Qaeda’s abduction of an Iranian diplomat as part of an effort to exchange him for al-Qaeda members detained in Iran. In its analysis, the Long War Journal noted that the new tranche could contain additional revelations. But its initial examination turned up nothing that would alter the assessment of an on-again, off-again marriage of convenience pockmarked by bouts of bitter acrimony.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...n-mike-pompeo-bin-laden-documents-cia/545093/

It is also worth nothing that other articles suggested Iran was putting the members and families of al-Qaeda members up to ensure their good behavior / get information about al-Qaeda.
Plus, the documents referenced that allegedly show this relation were released by Pompeo to support the breaking of the JCPOA; which is good reason to subject them to a stricter sniff test.

 

[H4run]

including an account from a senior jihadist of a deal with Iranian authorities to host and train Saudi al-Qaeda members as long as they agreed to plot against their common enemy,

This is something I haven't knew back then, this is not an ordinary cooperation (edit: from the Atlantic article that you quoted).

I just read also this morning, in my venture of helping your curiosity regarding this topic, there was a new declassified 19 pages of un-translated document of Al Qaeda. It's clear in that document that Al Qaeda was indifferent with Iran, but in that document it's also noted that Al Qaeda do had contact with Iranian intelligent, the document also noted Osama indifferent and suspicious to Iran, but those are irrelevant facts (edit: aside from the fact that they do had contact with Iranian intelligent).

And if you track pre-Syrian revolution there were operation in all around the world, from America till Indonesia, but there was no operation in Iran, because they were not part of the target operation, this was a fruits of their "deal".

 

[H4run]

@Kyriakos

Even if you hate Erdogan (or you love him) with heart that beat so loud until your neighbor hear it, whatever is the case you must admit here Erdogan was telling the truth.

"Macron's statement that 'Islam is in a crisis' is an open provocation beyond disrespect," Erdogan said in a televised address.

Macron, is flirting with the right wing voter with his inconsiderate policies, for ballot sake he is toying with the condition. The provocation that Erdogan warned is indeed materialized today.

Today published in Mirror:

An attempted murder enquiry has been opened in Paris after two Muslim cousins were "stabbed repeatedly" underneath the Eiffel Tower, prosecutors have confirmed..

It follows rising tensions caused by the beheading of a teacher in the Paris suburbs last Friday by a radicalised terrorist infuriated that cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed were shown to children. Members of France’s five million plus Muslim community have complained of increased Islamophobia caused by a government clampdown on mosques and Muslim organisations.

The victims of the latest attacks on Sunday have been identified as French women from an Algerian background named only as Kenza, 49, and Amel, who is a few years younger. Kenza was stabbed six times and ended up in hospital with a punctured lung, while surgery was carried out on one of Amel’s hands, said an investigating source.

There was an initial incident about unleash dog that the two veiled Muslim ask them to put it on a leash, which made them stab both of those Muslim women in front of their children after calling them "dirty Arabs".

 

[Kyriakos]

The muslim brotherhood story is very dangerous, Haroon. I have always been in favor of the palestinians, yet Erdogan is not supporting the m brotherhood for humanitarian reasons but due to strange pan-turanic or at least pan-sunni dreams.

 

[red_elk]

"Members of France’s five million plus Muslim community have complained of increased Islamophobia caused by a government clampdown on mosques and Muslim organisations."

It vice versa though IMO. The government clampdown was caused by increased Islamophobia - which in turn was caused by the events everybody know about.