From the Hills of Timbuktu [Deity Hemispheres]

[BornInCantaloup]

^ Well, I can't check that but it seems like you're having a good game.
Well, the start is quite generous, probably HoF worthy.

 

[soundjata]

Looks like a gorgeous piece of map.
I've seen spoilers and the dream is on.

@CarpoolKaraoke kickoff really looks optimal (in terms of beeline) and I can't think of a better deal.
I'm holding my horse for now

About early beelines

Spoiler :

Double gold means anything cheaper than 1k can be gotten in a breeze. What's appealing?

Metal Casting looks poor

HBR is cheap but we'll be starving for production early game and I can't see any incentive to rush attack anyone. Is there?

CS beeline leads to a microscopic empire with huge commerce output. Does not look desirable in this context, does it?

Edit I played and got stolen

Spoiler :

oracle T46

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Hi Soundjata, good to see you
My thoughts on your comment :

Spoiler :

Yes, with double gold, early tech targets should be given serious thought. That kind of eluded me and I'm pretty sure I didn't give enough thought to it (was sort of just "checking" the map).
Tech target =/= beeline, though. CS is definitely a stake but so are many other techs like Calendar, Currency, CoL.

I think it starts with barb defense. I believe CPK went for an early fogbust strategy with 6 warriors. No Hunting speeds up his path to Priesthood.
I definitely want skirmishers and that might mean Hunting before Animal Husbandry for the discount.
I have some qualms with the fogbust strat. I think it delays expansion (worker/settler) and the last time I did fogbust the frontline, I seem to recall an AI stole my spot. Effectively, I fogbusted for them (and probably paid the cost in unit upkeep !). Having access to a strong unit like the skirmisher lets you fight where it matters. Finally, culture from cities make a very efficient way to secure land against barbarians. Paying city upkeep is far better than paying unit upkeep.

That said, I agree with you that Oracle -> CoL looks very strong (SPI leader helps).
Other moves include Writing -> Alphabet. The earliest Alphabet leads to the earliest Iron Working, which is very important to clear the jungle tiles. I can see an Alpha beeline being the strongest opening. I still have reservations about survivability, in that case (going AH -> Writing -> Alpha and no Skirmishers). The Alpha beeline is a 20-25 turns investment without Bronze Working (size 4 Timbuktu does 13H per turn towards settlers/workers ; it's fine but not great). So, just like Oracle -> CoL, it puts you behind like 1 settler + 1 worker versus a REx. However, in both cases, you're then a full era ahead and it should translate extremely favourably into the Civil Service date.

My first thoughts about this map were : can we break 500 by 1 AD ? It is that good, right ?

In that regard, I think I agree with your assessment that an early invasion is not necessary. This is Hemispheres. Astronomy plays a huge role and I'd be willing to accelerate the tech pace as much as possible in order to land the earliest Astronomy.
So, while an early invasion could speed up Player, I do not believe it would accelerate Global Tech Pace. Losing a trade partner hurts ; said trade partner is also a candidate for building wonders (better on our side than theirs). I think the map is big enough that a standard REx could be best. From my first 50 turns, I can see RExing to 15 cities.
Once Astro date is secured, it doesn't matter so much anymore if we start losing neighbours.

With that in mind, an early Philosophy is also desirable, allowing to bulb through both of Astronomy and Education. Surely, we can trade for the measly techs such as Metal Casting & co.

Tracking back to the early game, building the Pyramids is also a very strong option, if the game should be so centric. It shouldn't prevent us to cottage spam and run Emancipation at some point but the Mids are a long-lasting and significant bonus if Caste and +10 food cities are involved.

Tracking back to an invasion vs peaceful play, there is always a third option :
Now, harrassing a neighbour early on and stealing 15 workers, that would be a different thing. Stealing workers is a lot cheaper than capturing cities and brings far greater results when you can expand on such rich land. I do not know that this is reasonable play, though. This is not a Pangaea with max number of teams.


Skirmishers - Alphabet - Iron Working - Oracle - Code of Laws - Pyramids - REx - Astronomy
I think those are all very relevant keywords but it's unlikely we can have them all. Alphabet - Iron Working - Pyramids could be compatible.
Anyway, I went AH, Bronze, Hunting, Archery, Pottery, Writing. Surely, there is something to do better than that. I didn't really think of it at the time.
If I don't want to replay turns, I could still follow with Masonry, I suppose, and have a very low cost on failure.

ps : I read your 2nd spoiler (and wisely chose to ignore it, obv ), I hope it won't deter you from having another go.
Please, tell how you manage the barbs. I can see so much dying involved in an Alpha beeline but I want to clear those jungle tiles just as badly. That beeline is well worth losing 1 city spot to Neighbour.

More thoughts :

Spoiler :

Astro bulb, conspicuously, goes contrary to an early Civil Service. CS goes with Oxford, however. 2 against one, here, probably dictate the direction we should take.

re : on war. It is cost dependent. I wouldn't go out of my way and not REx but a war of opportunity should always be considered.

Some Some More thoughts :

Spoiler :

It's possible this is an Astro map and not a CS one.
Compass is very strong trade material. Metal Casting is conceivably traded for. Machinery, hum... how do we get our hands on that ? But Optics is also a good trade bait.
What's the delay towards Civil Service, in the case of an Astro bulb ? Maybe not that much. What is certain is that the backfill post-Astro is very quick.

Let's assume a successful REx to 15 cities with 2 trade routes each, what does the Astro bulb amount to ?
- +200 commerce per turn in trade routes
- more resource/gold trades
- 4 more tech trade partners

Appealing much ? It will be much easier to assess those 2 paths once in the Classical Era but
The backfill from Astro to CS -> Edu is extremely fast.
CS -> Edu gets some earlier bonuses but not that earlier. I don't think the bonus from Civil Service compares. With Oxford, maybe but I'm not even sure. Not to mention that the Oxford route forgoes, say Astro bulb + Liberalism -> Democracy (or other tech).

So, a) How do we get 1 Era ahead ? (Oracle ? Alpha beeline ?)
And then, b) How do we play Hemispheres ? (Having a space race in mind, that is.)

 

[soundjata]

@bic thoughts

Spoiler :

Usually I like to play this kind of continental map as a "get full control of the continent then win" kind hence I would not care about the other continent and focus on conquest until job's done This one has lots of tiles though
You arguments for Astro make sense still! And with so many cities it should be possible to do several things at the same time.

I am still trying to improve my opener (balance military / expansion / research properly)
What I like is farming the cow to avoid early stagnation of Timbuktu.
Archery > BW > AH or something like that...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@bic thoughts

Spoiler :

Usually I like to play this kind of continental map as a "get full control of the continent then win" kind hence I would not care about the other continent and focus on conquest until job's done This one has lots of tiles though
You arguments for Astro make sense still! And with so many cities it should be possible to do several things at the same time.

I am still trying to improve my opener (balance military / expansion / research properly)
What I like is farming the cow to avoid early stagnation of Timbuktu.
Archery > BW > AH or something like that...

Yes,

Spoiler :

Controlling the continent is the traditional way to go and may be best. Depending on Diplo, killing a single neighbour and invading overseas is also a possibility (preserving Friendly stances).
You're right that, the earlier cities come out of revolt, the earlier the tech pace can explode. It's also convenient to set up expensive national wonders like Wall Street and the such. The earlier you're done with conquest, the earlier you can focus on space, etc.
re : costs. I'm not opposed to a swift war if the opportunity arises. I just don't want to tank my eco unnecessarily if I am going to be met with resistance.

On your opener :
I would strongly advise against farming the cow. You need the pasture for settler/worker production. If you're going to pasture, then farming first is just a waste of worker turns.
If you want those three techs, I would also revise your tech path to : Archery < BW < AH. Archery comes last. Archers can be produced at size 4 from chops and improved tiles. Given 1 chop, 2 archers are produced in 3 turns. This is what we need, just this quick burst (not 7 archers) because,
Yes, indeed, balance. If more archers are needed, they can come later. Like, I would never delay the first settler in order to get an archer out. We want the archers in time, not beforehand.
To avoid early stagnation in Timbuktu, the golds are only worked when the city reaches size 4. I had to delay working the first gold by 2 turns in order to do so (improving corn, gold, gold, road, cow). Then worker at size 4.
CPK brought to our attention that we can improve corn, gold, cow, gold (insert roads if/where needed) and that is likely better thanks to the earlier cow pasture. He also went double worker but produced his at size 3. I have no definitive opinion on what is the proper size to build the second worker. Size 3 may shave a turn of growth ; size 4 with improved cows gains 2 turns building the worker (afaik).

 

[soundjata]

Yeah, Worker Size 3 and is good because there is so much forest to be chopped.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Well, I haven't done any playie-playie since then but I can remember it pretty well.
I still like REx + Astro line as a grand plan.
As far as the first turns are concerned, I still think growth to size 4 asap is the objective.
This translates to farm -> pasture -> mine -> mine. It should be pretty easy to figure out once the farm is done, the remaining question is : what tiles are to be roaded ? (Since AH comes late.)

 

[ariosto]

Interesting map and settings. I also really like the idea of early caste system for border pops. So, I'll give this map a try. But I have some map knowledge and use reloads for some micro. My win condition is the fastest spaceship victory.

Spoiler T51 :

Agri -> AH -> BW. Worker at size 3 because this way we can grow 3->4 in fewer turns. Skirmishers are good, but I don't think we need archery here because there are already 5 warriors built naturally. So we can just build a couple more and fogbust everything.
Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Writing -> CoL.

Spoiler T97 :

Fishing -> Pottery -> loong time at 0% -> Currency.
Confucianism is the only religion on our continent, so I built SPI temple, put priest and got Confu Shrine T82. Oracle's GPP really helps here.
T97 Hanging Gardens on 11 cities, 36 pop.

Spoiler Thoughts :

I don't like SPI generally, because of lacking of early advantages, but here SPI caste system is strong and fun at the same time. It is unusual not to have whip button on demand at this stage of the game, so need to plan ahead, when you need to push borders and when you need to whip.
I don't think an early war is good with so much good land. So I'm aiming for later cuirs push.
I haven't decided yet, wgich root is better after Liberalism - Astro or SoL first?. Is it worth it to spend 2 GS for Astro? It depends on Astro timings - if we capture most of the continent, then merc + rep + SoL is probably better.
I completely forgot about great people production after great priest. I think, bulb philo is crucial here if I'm even start to think on astro. Maybe, Shwedaggon paya is an alternative?
There is no forest left for oxford. I should've chopped more forest in third-forth cities and keep forest in capital instead.

I'll replay this map and get GS earlier at the cost of one city. And try to fix other mistakes as well.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

We've got a player !
Yes, this map is geared towards a space race.
Yes, I agree with your assessment that an early war is counter-productive.
Please, use as many reloads as you wish, starting from turn 0. This is the best map.
I haven't come around to playing it but I think Astro comes before Liberalism. (All best case scenario)
I'm not quite sure about your T51, we've got 2 6yield tiles... Surely we can have more than 2 cities by that time

Regards
By the way, the lack of shadow plays in this thread is a testament to the level of play on these boards Don't let them fool you, they're not that good
The funny thing is that this isn't a difficult map but it's a map that requires decisions. Rich maps give options.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

"loong time at 0% -> Currency."
I'm pretty sure you can fix that with better sequencing of workers and settlers (workers before settlers).


I also think the Pyramids are boom boom boom boom >>>> better than the Oracle on this map, if you have to choose a wonder.

 

[ariosto]

I haven't come around to playing it but I think Astro comes before Liberalism. (All best case scenario)
I also think the Pyramids are boom boom boom boom >>>> better than the Oracle on this map, if you have to choose a wonder.

Spoiler :

I think, Lib after Astro will delay attack date too much. But I probably underestimate early Astro benefits?
Well, I joined this game with Oracle -> Caste in mind, so my wonder is chosen already. Also, there is one problem with Pyramids - stone is too far away. It will be my 5th or 6th city.

Anyway, it would be really interesting to see alternative approaches

I'm not quite sure about your T51, we've got 2 6yield tiles... Surely we can have more than 2 cities by that time

Yes, it could be 2 settlers instead of Oracle, so, maybe, an alternative cost of Oracle is too big. Anyway, I have 3 workers, so I don't think it's that slow.

"loong time at 0% -> Currency."
I'm pretty sure you can fix that with better sequencing of workers and settlers (workers before settlers).

That's true, this part should be improved.

 

[ariosto]

The funny thing is that this isn't a difficult map but it's a map that requires decisions. Rich maps give options.

Yes, that's why I prefer this type of maps