1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Frustrated Deity Player

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by BeTheRowdy, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 Fall from Heaven 2 still rocks

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    506
    Location:
    Kansas City
    I never build slingers anymore early on. Either it's warriors (for strength) or scouts (if scouting is an option). I will later in the build cycle build *one* slinger to trigger the archery eureka. Warriors increase your city defense by 10 when inside, slingers not at all. This alone is the difference between life and death in many a Deity rush.

    And, as was said above, the only variance would be scouts, who can bumble around stealing chickens :egypt: and distract enemy units from a better target. Slingers at the top levels are just weak. I mean, especially when considering the deity combat bonuses -- the less I need a ranged unit right next to another unit, the better (hence, I'll build archers all day -- and by that time you have the 50% policy card to build them quicker, so no real need to upgrade 3 slingers).

    If I happen to trip the Archery eureka from a hut, I don't even bother building a slinger at all.
     
  2. juanpavo

    juanpavo Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    131
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Thanks for the reminder on this. I tend to go too lopsided on the slinger/archers, and this is a another reason to build more warriors
     
  3. MIS

    MIS Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    427
    Location:
    Philly,
    I'm trying to understand this better - you've obviously thought about this a lot deeper than me. The advantages of a scout are a) cost 30 to produce (as opposed to 35) b) have 3 movement (rather than 2). A slinger's advantages are that it can help militarily, especially after promotions and upgrades. You need 3 ranged for the machinery upgrade. I always thought scouts were underpowered - often you have to spend all your movement points moving one hex anyway.

    Do you play deity? What force are you taking the first AI with? 2 Slingers, one warrior, one scout? Don't their warriors kill the slingers? (I'm asking because I've always waited to update to Archers before attacking). Do you go scout/slinger/slinger, or slinger/slinger/scout (let's say for Pangea). I may try this out!

    Thanks,
    M
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,342
    @MIS forget about scout upgrades... rangers are squishy

    I literally have just finished a session where I had 1 archer in a city and a scout running around the outside of it being chased by a warrior.

    I had another case later where I could not get a damaged archer out of city range so I threw that scout in as a sacrifice

    Weird how my game echoed @cll3

    Worth every penny as it got 2 settlers at the start.

    If I upgrade scouts I will upgrade for better movement in woods and hills then it's very fast for a second continent if it lives that long. When I used to nurse a scout to a ranger it would normally die pretty fast because it's still comparatively weak and still targeted.
     
  5. Matjillam

    Matjillam Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2006
    Messages:
    112
    As a non-deity player, I can feel you

    I want to play a Civ-game and feel like I'm a competent player building a nice, strong and rich empire.

    Then I want competition, because the other civ ALSO have strong and rich empires. And some of them even gang up sometimes, so I have to find friends to gang up with.

    In Civ6 I feel like I win not because my empire is strong and rich. But because the other empires are even weaker and poorer than mine.


    It's like a whole different feeling. Kinda reversed :( I don't like it
     
  6. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,707
    I'm more of a casual player, playing on king difficulty. There were times when I would ragequit if the AI beat me on a wonder I really wanted by a few turns but even that faded. Getting completely shafted on strategic resources on the other hand...
     
  7. MIS

    MIS Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    427
    Location:
    Philly,
    I don't understand "But because the other empires are even weaker and poorer than mine." If you want other empires stronger and richer, play Deity.
     
  8. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,902
    Location:
    Poland
    Not sure about you all but personally I have discovered one main thing regarding my enjoyment of strategy games... Well, those "huge, open semi-sanbox, semi-simulation" strategy games such as civ, paradox games etc... Well, same rules apply for my enjoyment of RPGs (other thsn hack n slash):

    If I play the game to win, to min-max, to micromanage, to crunch numbers, to optimize - I quickly burn out and lose the enjoyment, even if (especially if!) I actually manage to become powerful.

    If I play the game to immerse myself in the atmosphere, roleplay, or simply to have fun - I have much more joy from the experience.

    My favorite sessions of Civ, or Europa Universalis, were when I got imersed as ruler of particular civilisation, and played as a ruler - to achieve imperial or national goals - while not caring at all if my decisions are "mathematically optimal". Such as "I won't betray this ally because he is loyal, I won't destroy this country because I like it, I will do this slightly crazy irrational task for ideologic reasons, I won't get this upgrade because it conflicts my vision of society." etc.

    Stuff like making the most powerful AI empire hate me just because I wanted to defend somebody from its opression, despite having much more to lose than gain from that situation etc; or not expanding further just because "it would make my borders uglier"; or playing world police UN founder... I fondly remember my game as democratic Arabia on true earth map when I saved europe from communist russian genocidal invasion. This war cost me huge amounts of resources and suffering and gave no territorial gains or any victory goals whatsoever but damnit, I saved Europe.

    I really, really recommend this way of playing such open, deep games. At least personally I love it. I can fulfill my number crunching needs in smaller, narrower, more tactical games ;)

    Same with open rpgs - more than once I have realized I got "burnout" in a particular game due to obsessive minmaxing, gave myself a break for a few months, got back to it with "immersion first" mindset and had a blast.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  9. unpossible251

    unpossible251 Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2016
    Messages:
    241
    I'm on track for my first deity win, and heres some notes on the Anceint era:

    *triple archers for machinery eureka? By all means. However, don't stress. Its a classical era tech that you can boost up to in the classical era, when its due for the research. Build one slinger for the archery eureka kill, at least. Two is good, because at 30 gold, they're cheap upgrades. But don't fret over it. Build the 3rd archer only if u need it, or just before the research.

    *Scouts can kick some ass in Deity, when the map has unescorted settlers and builders scuttling hither and yon. Walls can disrupt your plans, but they seldom come online in the anceint era. Recon can get you the xp up to level 2 quite easily. "City found" envoys make a big difference right out of the gate, and the AI struggles at all levels with goodie huts.

    *Can you get an early kill? I snatched a nicely settled German city with a warrior, slinger, and scout, and proceeded to grab two - Two! - settlers in the turn 10 war. The second war, starting in the anceint era, wrapped up in early classical with a capital taken off Fred, plus his two settlers, early city, and one settler of my own. 6 cities, no warmongers, and no heavy stress on building or maintaining an army.

    In summary, go scouting. Theres builders and settlers to snatch, envoys to send, and you will need them badly.
     
  10. MIS

    MIS Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    427
    Location:
    Philly,
    Slingers are 35 hammers; Scouts are 30. Not a big difference. And the extra movement point isn't worthless, but a lot of the time you can only move the same number of spaces anyway.
     
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,342
    ... until you get a promotion, then you fly with gilded wings
     
    CPWimmer and Manifold like this.
  12. Matjillam

    Matjillam Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2006
    Messages:
    112
    You are right, you misunderstood.

    I'm not talking about difficulty, I'm talking about the feeling of the game.

    In civ6, if I get the feeling that I'm doing well and I have a strong and wealthy empire, I'm immensively ahead and the game would become a click-fest until I win.

    I want to get the feeling of doing well and have a strong empire while not being far ahead.

    Civ4 for example gave me that feeling. I could build a strong empire, meanwhile my enemies were ALSO building strong empires who could compete with me.

    I don't know, it's just something about that feeling. I feel like the challenge in Civ6 is winning because you can use 4 archers to hold back a carpet of doom. Not because you got a strong empire.

    I guess you can summerize my experience so far: The AI needs a big, BIG improvement for me to enjoy this game. So I'll wait until it happens
     
  13. BrokTheFanatic

    BrokTheFanatic Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2012
    Messages:
    228
    It seems to be that if you do really well early on that your science or your culture will greatly outpace your ability to meet eureka/inspirations, thus you just have to pick and choose. I am no expect though, I do well but don't try to completely maximize everything. I just have noticed that early on I can hit most but as everything develops it is just so few turns til the next 'whatever' that there is no way I am building/getting whatever it is asking for before the tech/civic is so low in turns to get that I just click on it. Plus what the AI is doing does affect your mid to late game choices.

    What seems fixed, once you choose your 'empire focus', are the wonders and great people you will go for. Usually just 1 or 2 of each. I find that a little too set in stone.

    I don't find the start all that fixed though most of my games are on immortal, just some at deity, since still playing around.
     
  14. antimony

    antimony Warlord

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Messages:
    192
    Do people ever go builder first on deity? If you can build three mines, two mines and a farm or two pastures and a farm, you might get your first army just as fast given the extra prod? I see the advantage of very early war, but that can backfire if the neighbor is just too far or in rough terrain, or if barbs pop up at home.

    I like how you can choose your risk level based on what you encounter in first few turns, go all military for safety or something more greedy like scout builder slinger to maximize long-term gains.
     
  15. EpicWestern

    EpicWestern Warlord

    Joined:
    May 6, 2015
    Messages:
    256
    IMO slinger, slinger is necessary for defense on deity, even if you have no plans for an early offensive. Spawning very close to an enemy civ is not uncommon, and if that happens the chance you'll be warrior rushed is close to 100%. Vs a super early warrior rush where the enemy civ's have a difficulty combat bonus and probably an oligarchy bonus, you simply can't defend with builder first, especially if your warrior is off scouting in a different direction. Having a scout instead of a builder is only a little bit better. The reason I'm adamant about this and have repeated myself in a number of threads is that losing to warrior rush is just very frustrating especially when you're keeping track of your winrate. Most games, its not a threat. In fact I would say in 80% or more of games builder first or scout first would be better. Its just in those games your civ might be better off by 5% or so, but in the other 20% where its not, you just lose the game as opposed to being slightly behind.
     
  16. BrokTheFanatic

    BrokTheFanatic Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2012
    Messages:
    228
    You can and it works but like someone said above if an enemy civ is close, you will get attacked and lose. Barbarians are also a big concern and can quickly overrun you, plus barbs give gold and sometimes other stuff civ depending. Just seems best to field some units and fight, plus grabbing a settler or even a builder is huge and the warmonger penalty is nothing early on. Really can't be beat, especially with civs like Gilgamesh and the warcart, the warcart is so OP early on that you can take cites.

    2nd reason is that chopping trees is not worth it early on. Civ 5 tree chopping was great but not anymore. It gets better when you can chop a tree and get 1 builder (or almost a builder), which happens a little ways into the early game.

    I do find it somewhat disappointing that other starts are not closer to the 'optimal' but this is something that is very hard to balance.
     
  17. antimony

    antimony Warlord

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Messages:
    192
    What's the earliest people get the first DOW on Deity? On the winter patch I remember it almost always happening around T30, since then I only played two Deity games and the AI wasn't as close.
     
  18. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,072
    I've had several DoWs on the very turn I meet the civs (t5-10) even.... Kongo and Pericles were the culprits. It is more likely several turns you've met them (when the first impressions negative modifier starts to kick in unless you gambled and got your first worker out and gifted them a camp/mine/quarry lux) around t15-20+.... If they attack me later than that they most likely will fail.
     
  19. LuckyAC

    LuckyAC Immortal

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    569
    That sounds like high praise of the game. The point of any strategy game is to create difficult choices and sacrifices, not to create a script to learn. Personally my problem with the current game is that the optimal choices are too obvious - aggressive warmongering.
     
  20. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,072
    Builder first can be safer in some circumstances... There will be times where going slinger first will not even save you... (games where they just send ALL their warriors at you kamikaze style) in such circumstances getting an early DoF is better... (only mining and animal husbandry luxes can be connected fast enough to gift to AI) usually you can then send a delegation and friendship follows afterwards (if first impression is above -6) in case of mining lux you can chop out an army should an emergency arise... So builder first is definitely safer if you beeline mining.
     

Share This Page