Frustrated with immortal

jorissimo

Prince
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
364
Location
Lisbon
Hi all, I have been an on-and-off civ 4 player since 2006, and when I say on-and-off, that includes a hiatus of around 8 years. I'm currently moving up to immortal and have achieved some great wins on that level with strong leaders the likes of Mansa, Willem, HC, Pacal, Elizabeth, Darius, etc., as you can tell, all financial leaders. I am now trying to get my first win with a non-financial leader, but it is tough. I usually have to play out a number of early games and then pick the best one to have any chance at winning. I've been playing as Peter. On the first try, the land was mediocre and I had a close neighbor, so I decided to try for a HA rush. However, I messed up the tech order and founded a mediocre second city just for the horses. Another mistake I made was that I somehow thought chariots upgraded into HAs and then discovered the hard way that wasn't the case. I had to abandon the game.

On the second try, I got DOW'ed by a huge and unrelenting Toku, who could not be brought to pleased and bribed, and was unrelenting in his attacks. I managed to take back a city he took from me and raze one of his (I knew I wouldn't be able to hold on to it), and the game just descended into a spiral of MAD. No diplomacy was possible because Toku. I again had to abandon the game.

On the third try, I was doing quite well, keeping up in tech and oscillating between first and second in GNP. I even managed to build the GL. However, at some point HC, with whom I had some serious border tensions, started plotting. I gave him a bunch of techs, got him to pleased, and bribed him. Then he moved his stack including early longbows, a lot of catapults, swordsmen and chariots into my territory, supposedly in the direction of his worst enemy, Hammurabi. However, he just parked the stack near my capital and waited for the peace treaty to run out, after which he DOW'ed again and immediately took a city. No amount of reloading could prevent him taking the city, only postpone it for a few turns by whipping walls and a bazillion crossbows (I couldn't get to Feudalism in time nor trade for it). It's really frustrating when a good game is ruined by a DOW like that. For now I moved back to emperor to play some really weak leaders (Charly, anyone?), but it kind of seems too easy. I feel like there is too much luck involved and way too many variables so that there is always something that trips me up. Any ideas for how to get better and deal with these late classical/early medieval DOWs?
 
Things improve when you are glad that Civ 4 has more competent AIs than many other games ;)
AI stacks are usually unbalanced. If they come in with loads of catapults you have to attack first.
If not their whole stack will die on well fortified cities, assuming you built proper counter units.

That can be scouted out. You never have to be surprised by their stacks, they are not hiding them.
Also..i wouldn't recommend giving them lots of freebie techs.
Open borders & resource trades give +4 in total after a while.
Always accept demands if they are not totally crazy (like large amounts of :gold: ), those are the main reason for war plotting.
Don't stop trading with anybody (unless they are really the only unpopular AI). Get those open borders & resource bonuses in :)
 
Just guessing, without seeing any saves from you, that your early game could be improved a lot.

Some recent threads that I'd recommend: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/immortal-shadow-game-cyrus.690553/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/immortal-shadow-game-suryavarman-ii-of-khmer.690596/
Yeah that's very true, I have been trying to improve that part. Always impressed by play alongs at how fast people get stuff up and running. Have also started comparing beaker rates at t100. My record since starting to keep track of this was 136 bpt with Pacal, but with non-financial I struggle to get more than 80 or so. The problem seems to be mostly logistics and optimization. Thanks for the thread tips!
 
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Things improve when you are glad that Civ 4 has more competent AIs than many other games ;)
AI stacks are usually unbalanced. If they come in with loads of catapults you have to attack first.
If not their whole stack will die on well fortified cities, assuming you built proper counter units.

That can be scouted out. You never have to be surprised by their stacks, they are not hiding them.
Also..i wouldn't recommend giving them lots of freebie techs.
Open borders & resource trades give +4 in total after a while.
Always accept demands if they are not totally crazy (like large amounts of :gold: ), those are the main reason for war plotting.
Don't stop trading with anybody (unless they are really the only unpopular AI). Get those open borders & resource bonuses in :)
Yeah I do tend to keep track of stacks but even when I see them coming I have trouble responding to them without crashing my economy. But as sampsa said I think a lot has to do with early game optimization.
 
You may already use it but BUG/BULL mod is really helpful for keeping track of things and especially diplomacy.
 
Save to look at please. I will try and be nice. :D (Ish.)

T100 is 350bc? I think at 100% science at 137 is not bad. Pends what you plan to do. If you focus on a capital with 2-3 good helper cities and get cottages up and running quickly i suspect this is beatable. If you wait to 1ad and 10-12+ cottages grow then you could easily be at 300 beakers by 1ad at 100% science.

Beating Toku away from your front door is another matter. He is usually a blunt tool and will usually be backwards but he won't give up that easily. Just build counter units to keep him at bay. Axes defend well. Spears stop HA. Phants are pretty good in the field against most units.
 
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Save to look at please. I will try and be nice. :D (Ish.)

T100 is 350bc? I think at 100% science at 137 is not bad. Pends what you plan to do. If you focus on a capital with 2-3 good helper cities and get cottages up and running quickly i suspect this is beatable. If you wait to 1ad and 10-12+ cottages grow then you could easily be at 300 beakers by 1ad at 100% science.

Beating Toku away from your front door is another matter. He is usually a blunt tool and will usually be backwards but he won't give up that easily. Just build counter units to keep him at bay. Axes defend well. Spears stop HA. Phants are pretty good in the field against most units.
I'll try to upload a save tomorrow (they're spread out over different computers)!

Yes the 138 figure was from a recent game with Pacal that ended in a 1600s domination with cavalry. I don't know what I did so well in that game, I had 20 cuirs in 1130. I guess I had decent land and pushover neighbors. The thing is I normally don't come even close to that rate, it's more commonly in the 70s around that time. Btw, t100 is 375 BC. Oh, and to make matters worse, Toku actually had phants himself!
 
Pascal and financial work really well with cottages. Expansive for workers and double production on granaries is just as nice.

1600ad with cavalry sounds fun. If you plan to whip cuirs it's about having a reasonably sized empire or just whipping cities outside your capital constantly but getting to Cuirs sooner. 20 cuirs at 1130ad should be enough to take down a nearby Ai if you keep whipping.

I played Arabians on immortal level on a recent game. (Large map/Immortal). By 1150ad i had 27 cities and had taken down 1 AI but was mainly using HA and pults at this stage. I eventually hit Cuirs 1250ad or so and ran over map.I did have 7-8 island cities. When you reach 28 cities you can then pretty much whip 20-25 cities for cuirs each 3-4 turns? You can quickly go from 20 cuirs to 60-80 cuirs very quickly. By 1520ad the game was pretty much over and i had 88 cuirs. On a normal map with 3 less Ai this would of been quicker. Even with gunpowder the cities were no match.

Having a larger army and going war mode around 1-300ad will deter many from your borders if you are too powerful. Avoiding religion and wonders at start of the game hugely speeds you up and helps diplomacy. The better players will defend with warriors and abuse gifting cities, resources, sharing civics to keep ai pleased. Getting Toku to friendly is always a big ask. You might be able to bribe Ai to war with him while you make your own plans.
 
Okay so fortunately I saved both the Pacal game and the most recent Peter one (where I ended up getting smashed by HC) at t100 for comparison. Roast me!
 

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Checked the Peter-save. Chop more, like WAY more, probably all the forest should be gone already. Then you expand faster and can work way more cottages.
 
Checked the Peter-save. Chop more, like WAY more, probably all the forest should be gone already. Then you expand faster and can work way more cottages.
Opened it again and you're right, the amount of forest around the capital is kinda shocking. Not sure what I was thinking. I guess sometimes maintenance becomes an issue when I chop out a lot of units and settlers early. But I guess as long as I get Pottery before expanding it should be fine?
 
By the way, another problem I have is with happiness. That's what usually prevents me from having large cities and working a lot of tiles early. I have a habit of going Aesthetics after Writing and trying to trade for Monarchy afterwards. Might it be better to beeline Monarchy after Writing if there are no immediately available happiness resources?
 
By the way, another problem I have is with happiness. That's what usually prevents me from having large cities and working a lot of tiles early. I have a habit of going Aesthetics after Writing and trying to trade for Monarchy afterwards. Might it be better to beeline Monarchy after Writing if there are no immediately available happiness resources?
Trade for happiness resources.
Pyramids gives you happiness with rep civic.
Monarchy allow HR civic which works well.
Calendar will give you happiness too with the right resources.
Till you reach these don't be afraid to grow into 1-2 unhappiness in cities.
 
Trade for happiness resources.
Pyramids gives you happiness with rep civic.
Monarchy allow HR civic which works well.
Calendar will give you happiness too with the right resources.
Till you reach these don't be afraid to grow into 1-2 unhappiness in cities.
Interesting, I always try to avoid growing into unhappiness. But I think in one of the threads Sampsa posted he said that it's better to work all of the good tiles than to stay happy.
Regarding trades, I think I could do that more aggressively. I have the habit of not trading away resources I have only one of, but I just saw a Henrik game in which he trades away all of his health resources for a bunch of happiness ones. Multiplied by the number cities you have that equals a substantial number of additional tiles worked.
 
The save. Peter 375bc
10 forest left in your capital city area. That is killing your capital.
Expansion at start is too slow. Second city should be 2600-2700bc? 3rd maybe 2200bc? Chop chop chop..
No border pops in your cities yet feels a bit slow.
HC has fur for trade. You lack resources to trade.
No granary in the capital is not good. It's the most important building in the game.
Taking out HC with HA would of been good. Needed more blocking cities with Incans but sadly their third city beat your second city out.
Tech wise you need monarchy or calendar. Incans have Monarchy but you lack PH for now.

Overall lack of chopping at start killed this for me.
 
Pascal.
Forest issues again!
You can switch to HR for happiness once you have Monarchy.
Greece had fur for trade.
Stop farming plains tiles. They add very little. Chopping is the most important worker function after food tiles are improved.

Starting save and a save well befor 275/375bc would be good.
Don't be afraid to attack the AI. Don't wait around for them to win the game.

Size 12 capital by 1ad is a good benchmark. Which means you have calendar and HR or rep by then. Plus 1-2 other happiness resources.
 
Pascal.
Forest issues again!
You can switch to HR for happiness once you have Monarchy.
Greece had fur for trade.
Stop farming plains tiles. They add very little. Chopping is the most important worker function after food tiles are improved.

Starting save and a save well befor 275/375bc would be good.
Don't be afraid to attack the AI. Don't wait around for them to win the game.

Size 12 capital by 1ad is a good benchmark. Which means you have calendar and HR or rep by then. Plus 1-2 other happiness resources.
Is there any way to retrieve the starting save? Or does it get overwritten when starting a new game?
 
Lost when you start a new game. I often save the starting save if I start a new game.
 
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