Frustrated

[Smend]

I have played many Civ 4 games. I *think* I'm doing "ok" with the early game, expanding, nabbing half-decent city sites without destroying my economy. My score usually starts out pretty strong but somewhere along the line I seem to go into a downward spiral. Usually it seems to happen during the medieval period once the expansion is largely over and it's time to tech or war.

My frustration is that I can't seem to nail down some of the concepts you guys discuss here, and if anything it seems I'm getting worse rather than better. I know my diplomacy skills are terrible, and my warring abilities are probably needing some serious work as well, but I just can't seem to figure out where to start. Before BTS I was probably about 50/50 on Prince, now I can't seem to squeeze a win out for anything. I've bumped the difficulty down to Noble, and I can generally pull a victory out at this level. I've read a large number of the articles in the war academy, I've attempted and failed miserably to do some of the Botm games, and I've read through some of the succession game threads to see what I'm missing, but all to no avail.

I could use any suggestions that the community here might have. I really enjoy this game, and I'd really like to improve so I could play with some degree of confidence.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Jerrymander]

Build more units. Units units units. Combine them with HR to make large cities or crush your opponents.

 

[Fireseal]

Yup, even if you are a peace monger you need a strong military. You also cannot be a "neutral" nation even if you try. Best to pick a few allies who you have good relations with and stick with them. Though there's a few "allies" who are more willing to backstab than others...

 

[Kesshi]

You also cannot be a "neutral" nation even if you try.

Says who, Fireseal?

Spoiler :

In all seriousness, doing this is tough. I'm still not quite sure how that happened in that game.

 

[Bob-san]

The only way that in particular happens is if you can force them to be preoccupied and stay strong enough that they won't BS and weak enough that you're not a "threat". The best time I've had being Neutral was denying wars for my survival and starting wars through the AP--which I controlled by the way. Eventually I got a defensive pact signed with ALL members of the Jewish AP--including those that said "no". I was attacked shortly there-after, and some great friends quickly became great enemies. And, my opponent was smashed up and had several cities captured.

 

[Sisiutil]

For diplomacy, your best bet is to wait before adopting a state religion, then go for the one that the civs you want to keep friendly are running--or just whichever one is the majority. Religion has a huge impact on diplomatic relations.

 

[Supr49er]

Do you build wonders? Try a game where you build few or none.
Match your civics with your enemies for diplomacy.
Adopt a religion as stated by Sisiutil.
Specialize your cities for one purpose - military, production, Great Person farm, etc.
Play a civ that has the attributes that complement your playing style.

And, Welcome to the Forums Smend.

 

[brades]

If you are doing well durign the REX (rapid exploration) phase of the game with a score comparable to the AIs I have a feeling you are making, in my opinion, the most common mistake. You probably need more workers. If you have approximately the same amount of land as the AI and its on noble there is no reason you shouldnt be able to pull away in techs unless you are working a lot of unimproved tiles. Destroying your economy to get more settlers out may not neccessarily be a bad thing, this is where specialists help out immensely. During the early part of the game it is very common for me to have to drop the slider to 0% for some time (this is on emperor), sometimes im so low on gold that i have to micromanage around and make people in cities only work commerce tiles, fortunately you can recover from the early game very easily. All it takes is a little time, and if you secure more land than the AIs you can almost surely win on the level you are playing. If you do have to drop your slider really low then its time to put some specialists to work, specialists shine in the early phases of the game. For every library you build you can run 2 science specialists in that city. Doing this will allow you to not be as dependent on the slider for techs while you are trying to get your economy back on its feet.

 

[Commander Bello]

My frustration is that I can't seem to nail down some of the concepts you guys discuss here, and if anything it seems I'm getting worse rather than better. [...]

Thanks in advance!

The most you will learn by opening a public game of yourself and asking the readers for their advise.

This way, you will get a lot of information and ideas, some useful, some completely nonsense and the most of it somewhere in the middle.

Then follow the advises you think are useful and check with the results.

Although the advises given in this thread already may have been helpful, none of them can be related to any particular situation and therefore, can only be very, very general.

Have the people look at your situation, explain your decisions or open questions and get their advises. This will help you the most, as there is no "golden path" to victory.

 

[Smend]

-- By "opening a public game" do you mean just posting one of my save games?

-- I keep meaning to try running a specialist economy, but I always fall back to my old routines. It seems that I rarely have the opportunity to run multiple specialists without completely destroying my production or stagnating my cities to where they can't grow to capacity.

-- I've tried several games as a philisophical leader to try to get the hang of a GP farm, but this is probably one of my biggest weaknesses. My GP are few and far between, philisophical clearly helps a great deal, but if I'm not philisophical I see very few GP.

-- My most recent game on Noble I won a domination victory in the early 1800's, I followed some of the advice here by focusing big-time on military and it worked, but in fairness I'd say barely. I was way behind in techs but the first to rifling. I HATE being so far behind tech-wise, but it was a valuable lesson that victory is possible without leading the tech race.

-- I have a feeling my tech paths are way too random. I gobble up the early worker techs asap, then usually go for code of laws to hopefully get confucionism and courthouses to allow my expansion to continue and to help bump my slider back up. From there on it's kind of a crap-shoot. More than likely I go for literature so I can take a stab at the great library, but otherwise I go for military techs for defensive purposes.

-- I don't have a clue how soon I should be getting my economic civic enabling techs, but it seems like I don't see Free Market until quite late in the game, when should this typically be discovered?

-- I've read many times that if you're struggling you should cut out the wonder building, and I largely have the exceptions being: Great Wall (if I have stone), Great Library (almost always go for this one). I probably go for Oracle about 30% of the time. Other than that I may go for some late game wonders if I'm in a comfy spot, but of course that never happens on Prince.


Thanks so much for the feedback so far!

 

[TyranusBonehead]

I've had a harder time winning since BTS came out. I can win at Noble, but it's tough, so I find myself playing a lot of times at Warlord.

When BTS came out, they took one of my favorite victory conditions, SS victory, and made it much harder to achieve. The required techs are buried deeper in the the tech tree and just getting the thing launched is not enough, you have to arrive before anyone else. Also, espionage has cost me a few SS victories. Even though I have a spy or two planted in each city, and have a security bureau built, I will still have completed SS parts sabotaged. Now, *that* is frustrating.

 

[Sisiutil]

-- By "opening a public game" do you mean just posting one of my save games?

There are generally two ways to do it. What you mention is certainly the easiest way. The other is the more elaborate posting of screenshots and saved game from several "rounds" (a sequence of turns), then awaiting feedback before you play and post the next round (aelf's EMC/IMC threads and my own ALCs are examples of this).

I assume the latter would be too involved, though if you're interested, I recommend it--it's a great way to learn and the debates are a lot of fun. If you prefer (as most people would) the simpler route, try to select a save where you've progressed to a significant enough level so we can see what strategies and tactics you've employed to get there, but only to a point where a significant number of decisions are imminent (or maybe just one big one). You may have a point in each game where you feel victory is slipping out of your grasp. A save from that point would be the one to post.

A screenshot or two would also help, as it will enable more people who may not be at their "gaming computer" (i.e. at work ) to respond. A world-view map of your territory, a shot of the capital's city screen, and maybe the domestic advisor and diplomacy screens would all be appropriate.

 

[Smend]

Ok, here we go.

2000 BC, I've met: Pacal, Survaya.. Louis and Hannibal.

Hannibal is extremely close to the east.

My second city is online, has built a worker, and is currently working on a monument to pop it's borders.

My capital is 2 turns from finishing my second settler and I have created a dot map as best as I can figure it.

I'm unsure which site I should send my next settler to.

Site "A" is a pretty lackluster site, but may be important for cutting off Hannibal.

Site "B" has copper and corn, and looks to me like it could be an ok production city, but it's pretty far away and has a ton of jungle which I can't currently clear. I'm concerned about maintenance and how long it will take to get this city productive, but I also don't want to miss out on the copper.

Site "C" will be a decent site down the road, but can probably wait a bit for backfilling later.

Site "D" doesn't look too bad, but again lots of jungle and bananas won't be available for quite awhile yet.

Site "E" is again more about cutting off the AI as Louis is just to the west, but I'm reluctant to found a city that far away this early in the game.

The Mayans are just to the NW of my capital, and I'd be more concerned about cutting them off if there was more viable real estate up there. Unfortunately we're looking at a lot of tundra and the only food resource up there is the corn.

In any case, it's pretty clear I need to get iron working ASAP as most of my city sites are going to require some serious jungle clearing, as wel it would be nice to know where the iron is.

Something not covered in my dot map is that there appears to be a fair amount of pretty good land further to the south. If by some miracle I could nail down cities in A, B and E, I might have some reasonable room to expand south if I keep my borders closed.

 

[Smend]

Hmm, how do I go about uploading, or making saved games available?

 

[Bob-san]

I'd say pop city A one tile east or settle at site C. My usual builds for cities in Marathon is to get a food resource in range and pop the borders ASAP with a Monument. If you can refine the Rice at site C or build a few farms around site A, that'd probably work best. I'd agree that B and D are too far out. Alternative, there's a site above your capital and west of your new city--that site doesn't look too bad. Avoid tundra unless absolutely necessary.

 

[The Snug]

Your potential D and E sites are poorly chosen. Both cities should be moved up/down 1 so that they can be on the coast and possess the potential to build harbors/custom houses. That's a lot of trade that's lost.

You need copper, and "orange" is encroaching to your east. Hence, I would probably build a city that takes in the copper, corn and the gold to the southeast. It'd be on a lake too, with a great many hills for production. Good site for an Ironworks city.

 

[Rvil Plum]

Here is the build start of a typical "culture win" playing as Elizabeth at emperor / immortal on marathon speed and a continents map with everything set on normal. You don't have to go for a culture win, because these wonders will help you enormously in whatever victory condition you want.

The boost benefit you get from certain wonders is huge and it helps enormously if you plan on building the right ones that will fit in with whatever strategy you are following. I am explaining the build strategy, as you need to build / research in a certain order, as the wonders have prerequisites conditions, and following this build order will help you to beat the AI to them.

Capital - build 1 or 2 warrior or fishing boats / research bronze
Start worker / whip half way / research masonry
Start worker /chop
2 x workers chop settler / research one health + any nearby luxury
Great Wall = chop / research roads then Mysticism and Meditation
Build monument whilst workers link up resources and road to city 2

City 2 has to have it's fat cross in a very good location, not necessarily on bronze / horses, as it's going to be one of your 3 culture cities. Build / chop warrior + monument, then have it build a settler.

You now switch back to your capital, and build / chop "The Pyramids". You don't need stone if you have a lot of forest, but it helps. Meanwhile research Polytheism and Libraries, and when the "Great Wall" pops a Great Spy settle him in your capital to get the science boost.

Once City 2 has produced it's settler, have it produce a worker.

You now need your third "Good" location for your final culture city, and needless to say it is going to have to be close to horses or Cooper, if you don't already have them. Again have it build / chop a warrior and a monument.

OK, now this is the tricky bit, because in the next few mins you are going to get "Aesthetics" and the choice of 3 wonders to build, and you can't mess it up.

As soon as the Pyramids is built switch to "Representation", and that spy you settled will really start earning his keep. N/B: Don't forget to free up your capital to grow again, as it will be stagnant from a health / happiness cap by then.

So what do you want to build / chop from Aesthetics?

Well marble / gold / ivory will build them in double speed, so see what you have, but you can build / chop all 3 without any special resources, providing there are forests nearby.

The 3 monuments you built will now allow you to go for the "Statue of Zeus" but I personally prioritise the "Parthenon" as it speeds up GP production and the "Shwedagon Paya" because it allow all religious civics and if I am going for a culture win, then I want "Pacifism" as again it speeds up GP production. I also want the "Shwedagon Paya" in case I need to switch to "Free Religion" a bit later, should there be hostile AI nearby who have a different religion.

You should be able to comfortably build / chop / whip 2 of the wonders, but you may need the "Pyramids" to pop a Great Engineer if you want all 3.

If it does pop a "Great Engineer" then I won't use it on the "Statue of Zeus", because after I have discoverd Aesthetics, I go straight for Literature, so that I can Build "The Great Library".

Once I have Literature I will then research Mathematics and Music to give me "The Sistine Chapel".

Deciding which wonder to build in which city is important, because different wonders generate different types of GP points. For example, in the above scenario you don't want the Great Library in your capital, because it will then be much more likely to pop Great Scientists, rather than Great Engineers or Great Spies.

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If you follow the above, then you will have a tech lead from Aesthetics onwards, so the AI will start to pester / threaten you to trade those wonder techs, whilst you are still building the wonders, so only trade them when you are ready. If you should trade them to early, then you risk the AI building the wonders.

The power of having any Govt civic (Pyramids) and any Religious civic, (Shewdagon Paya), that early in the game is huge, and you can mix and match your civics to fit whatever victory condition you want.

Likewise the combined power of the Parthenon and Pacifism to speed up GP production is huge, and your cities will pop GP faster than you know what to do with them. Last but not least, if you do go for Representation, then think very carefully about what specialists you are running in each city. If a city has wonders in it that are going to pop say a "Great Artist" then running 2 scientists in that same city for any length of time will almost certainly cause it to pop a "Great Scientist", rather than the "Great Artist" you actually want.

You can rush GP production by running specialist temporarily in a city to increase the GP points being generated by that city, but keep an eye on the slider that tells you the GP %. A 30/70 % split is reasonably safe to pop the GP who is at 70%, but you can get a surprise GP if it's higher.

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Once you have the above wonders + the choice of civics + ultra fast GP production, then you can play whatever game you want, because you now have some major advantages over the AI, as follows:

1) You have destroyed any chance of the AI getting an early Culture Victory. and deprived the AI of getting a big boost from early wonders. If you don't build these early wonders, then the AI will, and they will then have even more advantages than they start with.
2) The wonders you built will give you huge and strong cultural borders, and no AI will be able to encroach on your territory using culture. In fact if any AI has a few cities that are located to close to you, then they will flip to you. Even cities belonging to the highest ranking civ will flip, if they are to close.
3) Your tech lead allows you to trade for anything you didn't research, and the "Great Spies" from the "Great Wall" can steal anything else that you want.
4) The "Great Engineers" from the "Great Pyramids" help you instant build wonders.
5) The ability to use any govt / religious civic speaks for itself, as the AI has to discover loads of tech before they can catch up with you.

There are many, many other advantages from the above start, but life's to short, and I'm sure you can figure them out for yourself or will discover them when playing the game.

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To experiment with the above - save before you discover "Aesthetics" and treat that particular game as a training exercise. If you can get "Shewdagon Paya" and the "Parthenon" and the "Great Library" then class is ended, and you can go and kick AI bottom in a proper game. I suspect you may have to replay the game from your save point a few times to nail it.

Going for Mathematics + Music is only needed if you are going for a culture win, so once you have the "Great Library" you can tech wherever you want, and use whatever govt / religious civics you want.

Remember that you can change govt type instantly during a Golden Age, and don't forget about "Free Religion" if you want to keep certain religious AI nuts off your back.

Hope the above helps - best of luck.

Regards - Mr P