Fun with Anachronisms

[Alloran]

So. It's 1250 AD. The city of Venice is constructing the Cathedral of Notre Dame. A great writer is born, Mary Shelly, who pens her opus Frankenstein.

One fun thing I'm noticing with the great works are how hilariously inappropriate they are for the time area they're in. Not at all complaining, as it makes me giggle. I had a Polish artist in my last game paint a portrait of George Washington in the fifteen-hundreds. Washington, I might add, was not in the game.

Anything fun like this anyone else has noticed?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I had Steve Reich make an electronic symphony in the Medieval Era. That was pretty weird. I had to look the guy up. I am surprised that music made that recently wasn't copyrighted.

 

[blackcatatonic]

H.G. Wells and Edgar Allen Poe were both born in medieval Marrakech, it seems - who knew?

 

[God of Kings]

I find it interesting that Steve Jobs appeared during the Middle Ages in Ulundi.

 

[poopfeast420]

I feel like it wouldn't have been too difficult for the developers to check out "List art by country" on Wikipedia.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Here's one that's not quite an anachronism, but it is a genre-crosser; kind of a "you got your chocolate in my peanut butter" thing:

I renamed my World Congress to be the Galactic Senate like in Star Wars. It cracks me up when leaders comment on my proposals to the Galactic Senate.

 

[eewallace]

I made Wagner swim to Siam to give a concert...

 

[ahawk]

I am surprised that music made that recently wasn't copyrighted.

To use less than several bars of music may or may not require permission, depending on the country where the copyright or intellectual property application was filed.

Case in point: the practice of 'sampling' that is common to American rap and hip-hop, wherein a handful of bars of an old song are used, but not enough to violate copyright law. This can work for music in-game; artworks (paintings) and certain buildings or monuments (Motherland Calls, for one) often require permission from the original artist or the estate of the artist. Hence, the game generally tries to use paintings that have passed into the public domain.

Great Writings, however, since they are so briefly excerpted, can possibly be used without permission, a la Great Music, thought this again depends somewhat on local patent laws.

 

[Dai]

I feel like it wouldn't have been too difficult for the developers to check out "List art by country" on Wikipedia.

They actually talked about this a little bit, but realized that it'd ultimately be far too complex. There are many civilizations in the game that don't have very many surviving bits of writing and/or specific musical works and/or specific pieces of art, and for many that do exist the creator's name isn't known. Rather than applying a "home country" policy unevenly across the game, they just went with the same approach used with wonders of the world - that in the game, they might end up being built anywhere.

 

[PhilBowles]

To use less than several bars of music may or may not require permission, depending on the country where the copyright or intellectual property application was filed.

Why in that case aren't they able to use the majority of popular songs? Most of those rap artists aren't sampling Beethoven. I find the Great Works of Music a particular letdown - given how many of the best-known classical works were by a small number of artists, each of whom has one work each, you get a small number of snatches of genuinely "Great Music" and a whole lot of stuff that they seem to have put in because it's too obscure to copyright, which is pretty much at the other end of the scale. Not to mention how weird it is for a Civ game of all things - which has had him as an advisor, Great Musician and entertainer specialist before now - not to have Elvis Presley.

Copyright isn't valid for more than about 50 years in most territories anyway, is it? It should be no bar to people like Robert Johnson, Hank Williams, even the earliest Ray Charles.

 

[Gabriel Pyyrhic]

They actually talked about this a little bit, but realized that it'd ultimately be far too complex. There are many civilizations in the game that don't have very many surviving bits of writing and/or specific musical works and/or specific pieces of art, and for many that do exist the creator's name isn't known. Rather than applying a "home country" policy unevenly across the game, they just went with the same approach used with wonders of the world - that in the game, they might end up being built anywhere.

Agreed. Its a similar problem to the Spy issue.

Its difficult to portray all the great Hunnish Writers, great Assyrian Musicians, and even Artwork (probably the most viable) becomes extremely problematic given the many in game Civs (not to mention those that are effectively extinct).

 

[ahawk]

Why in that case aren't they able to use the majority of popular songs? Most of those rap artists aren't sampling Beethoven. I find the Great Works of Music a particular letdown - given how many of the best-known classical works were by a small number of artists, you get a small number of snatches of genuinely "Great Music" and a whole lot of stuff that they seem to have put in because it's too obscure to copyright, which is pretty much at the other end of the scale. Not to mention how weird it is for a Civ game of all things - which has had him as an advisor, Great Musician and entertainer specialist before now - not to have Elvis Presley.

Copyright isn't valid for more than about 50 years in most territories anyway, is it? It should be no bar to people like Robert Johnson, Hank Williams, even the earliest Ray Charles.

I don't entirely disagree with you. The game certainly could have used a little more 20th century music (Gershwin's 'I Got Rhythm' is one of the latest pieces I saw in the game thus far).

Copyright laws vary. I am only really aware of those pertaining to the United States, as that's where I've lived my whole life.

As for some pieces being too obscure, that may be a reflection of trying to incorporate famous music from the world-over: I may recognize Beethoven easily and not recognize a Japanese, Chinese, or Korean composer whatsoever, while the reverse may be true for someone living in China. So, it makes sense that some pieces will seem obscure to me, as I am not familiar with world music (nor even all forms of music that exist in my own country and its history). Only an academic student of music would probably not find anything about the in-game selections esoteric or obscure. To sum it up, I assume that if a piece is unknown to me, it's my lack of knowledge in music (or art, or writing, or whatever) that leads me to believe it's not a worthy choice. That's a good assumption to make for one (me) who doesn't know enough, and thus I leave it to others who know more to make the call. I only speak for myself on this. Probably you and a good number of others know better.

Now that I'm on the topic, I just realized: I've not seen the Mona Lisa in the game. Is it just that I've not seen it yet, or did they go with some other Da Vinci?

 

[Gabriel Pyyrhic]

I don't entirely disagree with you. The game certainly could have used a little more 20th century music (Gershwin's 'I Got Rhythm' is one of the latest pieces I saw in the game thus far).

Copyright laws vary. I am only really aware of those pertaining to the United States, as that's where I've lived my whole life.

As for some pieces being too obscure, that may be a reflection of trying to incorporate famous music from the world-over: I may recognize Beethoven easily and not recognize a Japanese, Chinese, or Korean composer whatsoever, while the reverse may be true for someone living in China. So, it makes sense that some pieces will seem obscure to me, as I am not familiar with world music (nor even all forms of music that exist in my own country and its history). Only an academic student of music would probably not find anything about the in-game selections esoteric or obscure. To sum it up, I assume that if a piece is unknown to me, it's my lack of knowledge in music (or art, or writing, or whatever) that leads me to believe it's not a worthy choice. That's a good assumption to make for one (me) who doesn't know enough, and thus I leave it to others who know more to make the call. I only speak for myself on this. Probably you and a good number of others know better.

Now that I'm on the topic, I just realized: I've not seen the Mona Lisa in the game. Is it just that I've not seen it yet, or did they go with some other Da Vinci?

That's a very sobering, and bluntly honest self assessment.

Kudos for having the presence of mind to make it. As far as music (and to a lesser extent Art) goes I am in the same boat as you. I am lot more familiar with Works of Writing.

 

[benjamin28]

To sum it up, I assume that if a piece is unknown to me, it's my lack of knowledge in music (or art, or writing, or whatever) that leads me to believe it's not a worthy choice. That's a good assumption to make for one (me) who doesn't know enough, and thus I leave it to others who know more to make the call. I only speak for myself on this. Probably you and a good number of others know better.

Now that I'm on the topic, I just realized: I've not seen the Mona Lisa in the game. Is it just that I've not seen it yet, or did they go with some other Da Vinci?

I like how honest and reasonable you sound. We all should have this point in mind when thinking about GW present or not in the game. I was very happy myself about seeing two argentinians books ("Martín Fierro" and "Los siete locos"), even if my country doesn't appear as a civ.
When I don't know about an artist, musician or writer, I usually look for some information in the net. This way, I've learn the existence of people like Raja Ravi Varma, Bhasa or Toyokuni Utagawa.

PS: Mona Lisa is in the game. In fact, it was the second GW I ever got

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I recently saw Da Vinci as a Great Engineer. I don't know if he is both a Great Engineer and a Great Artist or not. It would be sort of appropriate if he is.

Also, I'm rather sad that they don't have sculptors as Great Artists.

 

[El Caballerion]

I had Steve Reich make an electronic symphony in the Medieval Era. That was pretty weird. I had to look the guy up. I am surprised that music made that recently wasn't copyrighted.

Steve Reich is in the game??! He's one of my favorite Minimalist composers! Guy's a living genius!

But yes, it's all a bit confusing, isn't it. Just like when I created a Great Musical Work only to see the default image of a European classical orchestra with the sound of Indian tablas in the background.

 

[Ricard.Bossle]

Steve Jobs, a Renaissance Indonesian Great Merchant, was sent by me to trade with Buenos Aires.


I love this game. It makes me giggle all the time. On a recent game with Brazil, the Arabs and the Incas are aggressively faith-fighting in my lands. Their missionary proselyting is so intense that I have the Incan Catolic Mosques and the Arab Budist Cathedrals in each of my cities.

 

[predarek]

I made Wagner swim to Siam to give a concert...

That's awesome!

On the topic of having arts of "the same culture" I don't think it matters since we are defining the world as we go (with wonders especially) so we are rewriting history. Maybe that Steve Jobs went to sell those renaissance "portable clocks" to Buenos Aires!

 

[Polisurgist]

I feel like it wouldn't have been too difficult for the developers to check out "List art by country" on Wikipedia.

Boo. Having Steve Jobs born in the Hunnic Empire is part of the fun of the game.

 

[VainoValkea]

The tech tree weirdnesses have been discussed to death already, but let's go one more time...

- gatling guns without gunpowder (rapid fire slingshot?)
- fighter planes without combustion engines (giant rubber band planes?)
- Internet without computers (some supercool telephone network, maybe?)

And my favorite from Civs 1-3
- alphabet before writing (...what are you using them for anyway?)


EDIT: Also, submarines can be constructed before combustion or steam engines... although there have been some attempts, historically, to produce subs with other power sources like plain old muscle power.