1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Funak complains again.

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Funak, Sep 10, 2015.

  1. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    It's time for one of those whine-threads again.

    First on the to-do-list is WLTKD.

    1. First of all as I have mentioned before I dislike the WLTKD not working if you're suffering from global unhappiness. Even if I have heard the lore-fluff-reallifelogic-arguments for why that makes sense (and I can counter them all with similar arguments), when it comes down to it, what really matters is game-play, and from a game-play perspective, a mechanic that is completely unrelated to unhappiness being completely negated by unhappiness is just way too harsh.
    This is especially true as happiness, especially in the early-game, is a bit random at that point, and you usually don't have a pile of it to fall back on (unless you hate expanding for some reason). You could trade for a luxury you need, use a great merchant (or spawn a great person as China), drop to negative in the next turn from some random event and suddenly half your investment is gone before you have a chance to adjust to it.
    This gets even more weird for China, with a UA based around WLTKD and a civ based around mass-expanding.

    2. The great merchant WLTKD pop is just too weak as a scaling effect, I think I got 7 turns from it when I popped a merchant in industrial era (standard speed), and that just feels way too low.
    I would suggest making the number static, 10, 15 or 20 turns, as the effect of the WLTKD is already percentual and doesn't need to scale with the era. (Great artist GA-pops already are static, and imho they are pretty similar).

    3. The WLTKD imho could stand to be stronger. I'm not saying 25% growth is bad by any means, but another effect on it would make it more noticeable and would make strategies based around WLTKD more viable. (It would also make the great merchant pop seem more reasonable, I currently rarely find myself in a situation where I want to use a merchant for WLTKD instead of a custom house)

    Onward to things that aren't WLTKD-related.

    4. I'm not really sold on the current Golden age bonuses, particularly the static 1 gold increase on 1 gold tiles, it feels like it favors tiles with low gold way more than tiles with high gold, for no real reason at all. I mean a golden age when you have 10 tiles with 1 gold each would double the income while having one with one tile with 10 gold would increase the income by 10% instead.
    Sure these are extreme examples, but I don't see a reason why it would have to be this way. CEP had a system where the GA just increased all yields by 15%(I think) instead, and I liked that idea a lot more than I liked the vanilla GA, and by extension the CPP GA.

    5. I've been playing around a bit with some civs and the more I think about it the more I would like to switch the base-building for the Egyptian and the Songhai UB. The Egyptian building really feels like it should be from the ancient era while the Songhai empire isn't nearly that old(I'll admit that I have no clue how old the actual tabya were however :D).
    Naturally the Egyptian UA would need to change if their UB got changed to a stone-works, but that can't be that hard. Also, considering the Egyptians were great stone-workers, a unique stone-works would make a lot of sense.

    6. I have a few complaints about Persia as well, but I guess those would be better to bring up in the Persia-thread. So I'll save them :D
     
  2. Strec

    Strec Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    410
    Location:
    France
    What is WLTKD? :)

    edit :thanks !
     
  3. zer0lis

    zer0lis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    89
    Location:
    România
    We love the king's day:king:

    I got nothing constructive to say because I didnt had time to playtest. I m really eager to play the recent versions..
     
  4. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in California
    WLTKD basically favors the wide civilizations, you get WLTKD in all of your cities and a large amount of gold to invest in for your new cities, this lets your small number cities grow as much as possible within that short limited time.
     
  5. Strec

    Strec Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    410
    Location:
    France
    I would speak here only of the early game, later it's easier.

    WLTKD is very dependant of luxuries you have to exchange so adding more difficulty by happiness is hard :)

    And if you play full RP (with no resource visibility) and are not lucky with resources it can be very hard (I'm on a game at turn 114, classical era and have for now 0 resources visible :D )
     
  6. hokath

    hokath King

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2013
    Messages:
    954
    Location:
    London
    I've just altered the Great Merchant trade mission to give Influence (at a lower rate than the Diplomat). I've never really understood WLTKD, I just go for it if I feel like growing a city huge. Didn't even realise this interaction with unhappiness. I need to get with the times :)
     
  7. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    It is a remnant of vanilla, where negative happiness completely killed your growth, and because of that the growthbonus from WLTKD wasn't added either (probably because it would have done way too much of a difference, and because you usually didn't want to grow when you were unhappy)
     
  8. Edaka

    Edaka King

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    703
    I will agree with Funak on the WLTKD when unhappy part. It really hits nobody as hard as it does with China, and I don't see why it should. China already has things like GPs and growth to focus on aside from happiness, especially during early game when it is the hardest to manipulate. As Strec said, the situation gets much worse if played with hidden luxuries on. The system as it is now is pretty binary and, because of that, not too rewarding.

    Strength-wise I think WLTKD is fine - it has some synergies with policies, beliefs etc. and it also rewards a player for trading - something you always do anyway.

    Concerning UBs: I agree that it would be nice if Egyptian UB was available earlier. Or if it was a little stronger. Most of the times, considering Songhai's start bias, their UB is much more impactful while also being available earlier.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,017
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    I'll change this, but as a compromise I'm not going to modify Golden Ages (which I feel are perfectly fine right now).

    I'll give it a little bump.

    With the change above it'll be fine. Any stronger and civs like China go out of control.

    This feels like a change for change's sake. The knock-on effect (Changing UBs leads to changing UAs) sounds tedious.

    Also, Tabya = mud brick maker (meaning Songhai didn't make stones for construction). It is a natural fit.
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    Never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon! :D

    On a more serious note I just brought up the golden age thing because I always liked the CEP system better. This effect just feels like it lost a lot of its charm when BNW removed gold from river-tiles.


    It wasn't really about bumps, I would just rather see it at a static number, you're already going to settle every early merchant anyways because of how much it pays back over time, no real need to incentivize settling them even more by having the early insta-pop be that much weaker.

    I was mostly thinking of some additional effect besides the growth, maybe some minor culture to tourism conversion (like half a hotel-effect, maybe less). And sure that would probably benefit China more than it would benefit others, but China isn't exactly a tourism powerhouse. (and if it turned out overpowered, China's UA could easily be brought down a new percentages.


    I can completely see your point, the Tabya is fine, really, actually it is more than fine, it is great. This change was mostly because I really dislike how the burial tomb ended up and wanted to somehow place it in the ancient era, Tabya felt like a decent choice for a switch.



    I also completely forgot to mention something in my first post, something WLTKD related:

    3.5. WLTKD stacks up really weirdly, if you have one going, and get a new one, for example by using a GM, the new one is completely ignored. It doesn't matter how many turns are left or if the new one is longer, it is just completely ignored.
    This isn't much of a problem for most civs as during a WLTKD the city doesn't ask for a new luxury. But with the GM change it could end up happening, and with China it does happen a lot, a great person spawns within 10 turns of the old one and suddenly you're out of luck.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,017
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    You are free to like the CEP system better, but the current version is quite nice. Keep in mind that, en route to a Golden Age, you are getting % boosts across the board from happiness. I'm not going to make Golden Ages a double-whammy, and I like the current happiness bonus (making +/- values have some impact).

    Bump = static # (adjusted for scaling). Sorry, on mobile.

    That's what happiness and golden ages are for. I just don't see the need to pile on more bonuses. Besides, specific bonuses like this tend to favor micromanagement (a human attribute).

    Sounds like a bug, though IIRC China's WLTKD UA should stack. I'll give it a look.
     
  12. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    Good point.



    You can sue me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the current GA affects tourism at all (unless you're Brazil :D)
    Happiness doesn't either from what I can remember (which is weird honestly, I thought it affected all yields, but then again tourism isn't exactly a yield)
    You're absolutely right about the micromanaging, mostly because I forgot what a Hotel does. What I actually meant was the part of the Hotel effect that converts (part of the) culture from world wonders natural wonders and improvements to tourism.



    It is completely possible that I'm just wrong as well, but that's the way I remember it.
     
  13. Apostremo

    Apostremo Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    155
    Golden Ages was a percentage bonus to gold at the start and got changed to +1 per tile because it was to strong (?). There was a reasoning from the developers, but can't really remember specifics. It seems they were never happy with too much gold from tiles and put large part on trade routes. So as Funak said, removing gold from rivers was a nerf to GA, but i think the higher tile yields of CBP are really out of bounds in comparison.

    Problem with a percentage increase is that it also boosts trade routes, which it shouldn't by the vanilla design. But +1 gold was good in vanilla, but not so great now. Especially for a strategy with towns, where it does really nothing.

    How about
     
  14. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,416
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Isidro, Argentina.
    +1 :c5gold: default +1 :c5gold: for every 5 :c5gold: in tile.
     
  15. Finarvi

    Finarvi Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
    Messages:
    529
    Or maybe something like +2:c5gold: on luxury resources and great improvements and +1:c5gold: on strategic and common resources? That would reward well-developed cities.
     
  16. Apostremo

    Apostremo Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    155
    Nothing for poor ressourceless villages? I guess they are in the second group? ;)

    But i think it wouldn't make a difference since cities are (later?) over 5. I have no idea, but sounds like more effort. I hoped my suggestion would evolve around copy pasting the +1 code and changing the condition a little bit ^^
     
  17. skitter

    skitter Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    How about +1 :c5culture: and +1 :c5gold: from cities, villages and luxury resourses?

    It would add some incentive for building villages and buff a little the luxuries.
     
  18. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,299
    So it will be added up as a flat value and then will be multiplied again with GA modifier?
    I am not a fan of those double multiplications.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,017
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    This is the code (in the Civ5Yields.txt file in the base game) that allows you to tweak Golden Ages.

    Code:
    <Column name="GoldenAgeYield" type="integer" default="0"/>
    <Column name="GoldenAgeYieldThreshold" type="integer" default="0"/>
    <Column name="GoldenAgeYieldMod" type="integer" default="0"/>
    
    Right now, it affects Production:

    Code:
    <Row>
    			<ID>1</ID>
    			<Type>YIELD_PRODUCTION</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_YIELD_PRODUCTION</Description>
    			<IconString>[ICON_PRODUCTION]</IconString>
    			<MinCity>1</MinCity>
    			<GoldenAgeYieldMod>20</GoldenAgeYieldMod>
    			<AIWeightPercent>110</AIWeightPercent>
    		</Row>
    
    and Gold:

    Code:
    <Row>
    			<ID>2</ID>
    			<Type>YIELD_GOLD</Type>
    			<Description>TXT_KEY_YIELD_GOLD</Description>
    			<IconString>[ICON_GOLD]</IconString>
    			<MinCity>0</MinCity>
    			<GoldenAgeYield>1</GoldenAgeYield>
    			<GoldenAgeYieldThreshold>1</GoldenAgeYieldThreshold>
    			<AIWeightPercent>80</AIWeightPercent>
    		</Row>
    As is usually the case, there's a little spaghetti here, as Culture's modifier isn't handled via its yield (of course, that'd be too easy), but rather through this define:

    Code:
    GC.getGOLDEN_AGE_CULTURE_MODIFIER()
    I'm resistant to any changes to Golden Ages (especially % modifiers) as Golden Ages are preceded by % bonus turns from happiness. However, I'll consider duplicating the yield/threshold model of Gold for either Science or Culture via the XML. This would grant an additional science or culture to all tiles that have at least one of these yields (I assume that Culture will work here - no idea if it actually will in practice, as culture is handled oddly).

    I'm not, however, going to rewrite any of this code in the DLL. Golden Ages are already quite useful, and a rewrite of this code would require a hefty dive into UI LUA, which is an incredible pain.

    G
     

Share This Page