Fundamentalism

[Muumuu]

Is this government really as good as it seems?

Changing from Republic to Fundamentalism:
* Tripled income (all those tithes)
* Halved costs (no maintenance for temples etc)
* Increased production by a third (no resource drain from units)
* Worldwide happiness (we love the king)

All this boosted my Treasury to the moon, and with a net income of hundreds (thousands?) of gold I can buy practically everything.

The only minus I can think of is the halved science. But surely this enormous boost is worth the few turns' halt in science, right? I guess a return to democracy is a must when there's nothing new to be built in cities...

Fundamentalism just sounds too good to be true. Even silly..

Any minuses I have missed?

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What a wonderful site!

 

[Smash]

well..there is one very small thing.Fundy's are still vulnerable to the bribe.Expensive,yes-but vulnerable.

Only a consideration in MP games.

 

[Johan511]

CyberChirst and I are playing an on going ladder game at the moment that I'd let slip away from me, and he got most of the wonders, but I managed to pull of the Statue, so I went to Fundy to build up a Defense, and although I have over 400 units, he has all the techs, SO I have to steal them, but I'm having trouble doing so because he's blocked all my "steal" paths with superior naval Units. I may be able to defend with units to the point of Nukes, then he will just rain down upon me, Although I have a few tricks up my shelve, because I am a Civ God (I won't tell just yet, the game is still going) he may just be able to pull off a win on me. I got myself in this position after playing after a long night of intoxication (not reqmended for ladder games <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0> ) But it's turned out to be a line i've never seen before, so I guess we'll really see the limits a Fundy government can take you. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/king.gif" border=0>

[This message has been edited by Johan511 (edited February 22, 2001).]

 

[Johan511]

Originally posted by Johan511:
CyberChirst and I are playing an on going ladder game at the moment that I'd let slip away from me, and he got most of the wonders, but I managed to pull of the Statue, so I went to Fundy to build up a Defense, and although I have over 400 units, he has all the techs, SO I have to steal them, but I'm having trouble doing so because he's blocked all my "steal" paths with superior naval Units. I may be able to defend with units to the point of Nukes, then he will just rain down upon me, Although I have a few tricks up my shelve, because I am a Civ God (I won't tell just yet, the game is still going) he may just be able to pull off a win on me. I got myself in this position playing after a long night of intoxication (not reqmended for ladder games <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0> ) But it's turned out to be a line i've never seen before, so I guess we'll really see the limits a Fundy government can take you. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/king.gif" border=0>

[This message has been edited by Johan511 (edited February 22, 2001).]

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Goverment tends to strenghten what it would choose to prohibit

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Fundamentalism is indeed very powerful for waging war and building up infrastructure. I use it in the late time of the games to crush all opposition down to a few cities. If I am secure enough, I prefer to wait it until I have space techs and can build space ship parts using its production and tax money. At higher levels, I am, however, commonly obliged to switch to it earlier to grind up the hostile AIs. In either case, upon having made the world very secure for Lefty Scaevolism, I go back to Democracy to finish research and roll up future tech points.

 

[SunTzu]

Fundy G'ment is great! Especially for wartime and if your country is struggling and you want to get them out of poverty then switch to fundy, and you can make a powerful army with hundreds of fanatics which are 4/4/1 and cost 3/4 the time of armor i think. like it'll take 8turns to make rifelmen and only 3-4 turns to make fanatics and they don't take up shields

Fundy is great!!!

 

[Håkan Eriksson]

I never rely tried fundamentalism. I always thought Democracy was best. I think I will try whit it in my next game.

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This is my cool book:
John Valdez, vladmir_illych_lenin, Thunderfall, shadowdale, stormerne, Stellar Converter

 

[stormerne]

My normal government strategy is:
Research Monarchy. Change to Monarchy ASAP.
Research Republic. Stay with Monarchy.
Research Democracy. Stay with Monarchy.
Build Statue of Liberty. Change to Communism.
Research Communism. Build U.N.
Reseach Espionage. Build Veteran Spies. Yay!
Conquer World. Save biggest to last.
Someone left? Are we far enough ahead in science?
- No. Stay in Communism.
- Yes. Switch to Fundamentalism to allow much quicker dispatch of enemies.
No one left bar one city? Switch to Democracy and grow for high score.

The point about the switch to Fundmentalism at the right point is that allows you to finish your enemies off in just a very few turns. And the point about that is that it leaves you with many more game turns before 2020 to grow for a really high score (if that's what you want). But I won't switch to Fundamentalism, however, if I'd be in danger of losing my tech lead.


[This message has been edited by stormerne (edited February 23, 2001).]

 

[shadowdale]

Hey I always go for Monarchy and then ASAP Republic and after some time and Democracy I switch to that and stay there for the rest of the game - some very rare time when the game calls for a real war I might change to communism but never Fundamentalism - it's not good enough for my type of playing.

But I'm sure that it will come in handy in multiplayer games, but not against the AI you can easily get along with Democracy.

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Veni Vidi Vici.

Coolbook: Cunobelin Of Hippo, Håkan Eriksson, vladmir_illych_lenin, stellar converter, Stormerne.

 

[Kev]

Hey, my first post. I am so glad that I found this site - I thought that perhaps being an older game has caused CivII to lose favor. It still keeps me up too late at night quite often.

My government progression pretty much follows Shadowdale's. I go for Monarchy ASAP, and when my civilization can handle it, to Republic. This is tougher, of course, on Deity with the unhappiness factor. I'll go to Democracy when I have the Statue of Liberty, and I WILL go to Fundamentalism - usually after I have robotics so I can build tons of howitzers. I find it a much quicker proposition to kill off my rivals without senate interventions and the ability to build at will. A quick note: usually with a large enough civilization complete with a decent science city, I can usually discover techs in 5 or 6 turns even in Fundamentalism. Speed buy/build some freight and they will help boost your tech discoveries as well.

I'll go back to Democracy when I have the world pretty much in hand, and I'll usually have some nice cash left over to speed-buy items for smaller cities to help them grow like harbors, aqueducts, sewers, and supermarkets.

Sorry that my first post is so wordy. I'll try to sum-up more as I go.

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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

 

[Muumuu]

Originally posted by stormerne:
My normal government strategy is:
Research Monarchy. Change to Monarchy ASAP.
Research Republic. Stay with Monarchy.
Research Democracy. Stay with Monarchy.
Build Statue of Liberty. Change to Communism.
Research Communism. Build U.N.
Reseach Espionage. Build Veteran Spies. Yay!
Conquer World. Save biggest to last.
Someone left? Are we far enough ahead in science?
- No. Stay in Communism.
- Yes. Switch to Fundamentalism to allow much quicker dispatch of enemies.
No one left bar one city? Switch to Democracy and grow for high score.
...
But I won't switch to Fundamentalism, however, if I'd be in danger of losing my tech lead.

My gov style seems to have developed into Mon-Rep-Fundy (via Statue of Liberty).
And later when there's nothing to build change to Democracy & tech per turn speed track.

In the future I guess I'll try to skip the Monarchy, as Republic seems to be enough, unless there's a total war going on.

However, there's one point in the quoted reasoning I don't quite get.

Why, if you are behind in science, do you avoid turning Fundamentalist?
Is it not much cheaper just, for example, to go around with your diplomats stealing knowledge?
A diplomat costs only 60 (in gold = trade = science), while a new tech costs hundreds or thousands.

I'd think that being AHEAD in science is the only big minus in Fundy, as you really have to research all your science yourself.

Or do you just want to stay ahead in science?

BTW, does Fundy also cause all Huts to be something else than science? At least I've not found a single scroll of "ancient knowledge" in the twenty or so huts after turning Fundy.

I'm still simply astounded about the effect of the Fundy govt to my finances. After the initial tripling of income after the revolution, my income has again tripled in the ten or so turns since. I have also calculated that changing to Democracy would roughly halve my income.

Uh, if this were a realistic portrayal of the world I guess the richest countries would be Fundamentalist!

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What a wonderful site!

 

[SunTzu]

If i'm behindin tech to where my opponent researches every 3turns and i research every 6turns i say screw it and switch to fundy get hundreds of fanatics rush buy improvements and military and go conquer him.

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Civilization God of War & Economic Prosperity
http://www.civfanatics.com Staff and forum moderator

<IMG SRC="http://www.homestead.com/house_of_lux/files/suntzu1.gif" border=0>

Well, it must be close to the Armageddon. Lord, you know that I won’t fly by that lesson you taught me, to pull out my Wesson you brought me, and i’m not stressin’ it softly. Get ‘em up off me, ‘cause all we wanted harmony, been bombin’ ‘em. Yell up outta my ghetto, “I won’t settle,” get on my level.

 

[stormerne]

Originally posted by Muumuu:
However, there's one point in the quoted reasoning I don't quite get. Why, if you are behind in science, do you avoid turning Fundamentalist? Is it not much cheaper just, for example, to go around with your diplomats stealing knowledge? A diplomat costs only 60 (in gold = trade = science), while a new tech costs hundreds or thousands. I'd think that being AHEAD in science is the only big minus in Fundy, as you really have to research all your science yourself. Or do you just want to stay ahead in science?

Here is an example from my current game...
I've gone from Communism to Fundamentalism, wiped out all but one AI city and now I'm changing to democracy. The reason I'm changing to democracy is first to get lots of cash, then lots of future tech for a BIG score. Lets compare things immediately before and after the change. I have 126 cities under both regimes.

<u>Fundamentalism</u>
(Luxuries kept at zero%)
Set for max gold: Income 3208. Maint 750. Net 2458 gold. Discoveries every 12 turns.
Set for max science: Income 2587. Maint 750. Net 1837 gold. Discoveries every 5 turns.

<u>Democracy</u>
(Luxuries kept at 20%)
Set for max gold: Income 3725. Maint 869. Net 2856 gold. Discoveries every 3000 turns.
Set for max science: Income 1019. Maint 869. Net 150 gold. Discoveries every 1 turn.

Don't the figures speak for themselves?

 

[Muumuu]

Originally posted by stormerne:
Here is an example from my current game...
I've gone from Communism to Fundamentalism, wiped out all but one AI city and now I'm changing to democracy. The reason I'm changing to democracy is first to get lots of cash, then lots of future tech for a BIG score. Lets compare things immediately before and after the change. I have 126 cities under both regimes.

<u>Fundamentalism</u>
(Luxuries kept at zero%)
Set for max gold: Income 3208. Maint 750. Net 2458 gold. Discoveries every 12 turns.
Set for max science: Income 2587. Maint 750. Net 1837 gold. Discoveries every 5 turns.

<u>Democracy</u>
(Luxuries kept at 20%)
Set for max gold: Income 3725. Maint 869. Net 2856 gold. Discoveries every 3000 turns.
Set for max science: Income 1019. Maint 869. Net 150 gold. Discoveries every 1 turn.

Don't the figures speak for themselves?

Indeed they do. For you democracy seems to be better.

However, with a similar strategy I've got very different figures. I also thought about going to democracy, but after the following comparison begun to have my doubts...

If going for gold at Tax-Sci-Lux 80-0-20:
(figures are approximate)
Income statement:
Fundy: 4500 - 500 = 4000
Demo: 3000 - 1000 = 2000

For the science strategy I don't remember the exact figures, except that a 30-50-20 for Fundmentalism for clearly better on BOTH money and science than a 60-20-20 for democracy.

Well, of course if science is the only thing that matters, then democracy is better, but for me at least money does matter until very late in the game.

I don't understand how the difference can be so big in our figures. First thing I wonder about is the small difference in costs you have (in the two governments). Don't you (need to) have (for example) colosseums in your cities?

For me, colosseums & temples take up about half of the costs, if not more. And while in Fundamentalism those costs are converted into revenue of a much greater magnitude, even at a 0% tax rate income hugely exceeds costs. In fact, in Fundamentalism temples and colosseums are even bigger money machines than marketplaces or banks!

BTW, if you kill the last city of the enemy does the game necessarily end? In the old Civ I remember it could be still continued.


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What a wonderful site!

 

[stormerne]

OK, I think I understand. The year is about 1840 CE. I've deliberately taken over the world quite late, all between about 1720 and 1840. That means all the happiness wonders have been built and now I own them all. This includes Adam Smith, so none of my temples cost me anything.

I only have 22 colesseums. Even without the wonders they would take far less a proportion than they cost you. That's because I realise that banks and stock exchanges + luxuries together do a better job of quelling unrest than colesseums and cathedrals, and they give you money too. Temples, however, are always worthwhile.

And the other thing was that I only changed to Fundamenatism about 1824 for the final push. I'd already conquered most of the world with Communism. Some players forget that keeping three units at home with Communism keeps six people happy which means that there's less need for the happiness city improvements. The switch to Democracy comes only when I have all the happiness wonders.

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"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage" - Anais Nin

 

[stormerne]

Originally posted by Muumuu:
BTW, if you kill the last city of the enemy does the game necessarily end? In the old Civ I remember it could be still continued.

Yep, it's end of game, or more specifically: end of <u>scoring</u> game. You may get the option to play on but it no longer affects your score.

So people going for a high score always conquer the world and leave one city. The city should ideally be a land-locked city and should have belonged to the most backward civ science-wise. This is often called the 'pet' city. However, apart from being surrounded to keep the occupants in, it is otherwise left in peace because you get a far bigger contribution to a final score from maxing out a spaceship.

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"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage" - Anais Nin

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

BTW, does Fundy also cause all Huts to be something else than science? At least I've not found a single scroll of "ancient knowledge" in the twenty or so huts after turning Fundy.

Yes and no. Fundamentalism itself doesn't stop you from getting Techs from Huts. However, I believe discovering Invention stops huts from giving tech... and you can't get to Fundy without at least getting to Democracy for either the Statue or Conscription. And you have to get Invention to get to Democracy.


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There are some who call me...Tim

 

[Muumuu]

Thank you for the hints and clarifications, Tim and Storm.

You're right that banks etc with luxuries are more efficient in keeping order than colosseums. They not only make the people content, but also happy. And as I just discovered, with stock exchanges and just a 20% lux rate, most if not all my cities are filled with happy people.

Hmm, to prove the point let's calculate a bit again. Two luxuries (worth two gold) turn one red (or black!) guy happy, i.e. two or three happiness "steps". A colosseum costs 3 gold (or was it 4?), and turns 3 guys from red to blue (content) or from black to red, also a total of 3 happiness steps. And for that it still has to be built for 200 gold (or its production equivalent of 100 shields).

So, there's really no reason to build colosseums other than making money in Fundism. BUT, having built them is a rather big reason to remain Fundy (vs switching to Democracy).

And oh is cash necessary indeed. After getting nervous about what to do with 20k of gold (earning a ZERO % interest), that hoard was quickly spent buying stock exchanges. But with income now above 5k, will the Treasury start overflowing again? Just hope there's no upper limit...

About the huts... so, no tech after Invention. But at least they can give awesome cities, "advanced tribes". A city of 3-4 guys (best I've seen) and a few improvements is worth quite a lot, especially in a far away, unoccupied area.

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What a wonderful site!

 

[stormerne]

Watch out 'cos there is an upper limit. I've never reached it personally, but I'm told you won't get beyond the 30,000s. I think there's a patch for that one depending on your version. (There's only no patch for the 255 city limit and the 255 future tech limit.

)

What do I do with my cash? Well, it depends what I'm trying to do overall in the game at that time. But it all comes down to either rush building or subverting cities. Usually rush building.

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"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage" - Anais Nin

 

[shadowdale]

Yes the upper limit is around 30.000 and there is a patch to fix that - in my most recent game I had 84.000 in the end - my cities where producing about 3.000 every turn even if the tax rate was 0%!!!

The only time I can imagine that Fundamentalism is good for is when you are expanding like a madman - if you play on the higher levels then the cities often get mad with a population of ONE and that is where Fundamentalism can help!!! When the cities get bigger I always go for Democracy and in times of war MAYBE Communism.

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Veni Vidi Vici.

Coolbook: Cunobelin Of Hippo, Håkan Eriksson, vladmir_illych_lenin, Stormerne, PaleHorse76.