Furious with the EU fascism

[King Alexander]

First, this is a topic which I want to know what other european posters think about and the topic is aimed to them, no hard feelings.
Secondly, maybe other fellow citizens share the same opinion with me or not, but I certainly DO NOT represent my people neither want to. This is my personal opinion only.

Well, as time passes by, I'm becoming more and more dissapointed and furious with the Brussels' IDIOTS that taking CRITICAL decisions without making referendums or, at least, have a dialog with the citizens for critical matters.

Why am I telling all this? EU, and every European country alone, has NEVER been so FASCIST and undemocratical. Even at the 70's that our allies from the other side of the pacific had promoted-supported the Junta for 7 years, that dictatorship wasn't keeping RECORDS of the citizens so well-thought and regarding as much as what the EU is proposing more and more.
Telephone conversations been recorded and the data to be stored for 2 years, been spotted by tracking the cellphone over GPS(that's how other people got arrested in another EU country), and I really don't know what more CRAP the "wise" that rule us want to do.

Maybe non-EU countries want to also promote in EU the same crap they have at their country: well, I don't care A BIT, and I'm willing to fight for my rights, freedom and PRIVACY, yes, if I had to choose over a) compromise with what the non-EU countries want and b)the EU have a war with them regarding the passing of that laws, I'd choose the b, hands down. I value my privacy VERY MUCH.

I don't care what those that're ruling plan: when I say it's very annoying for me to been spyed, I mean to, and IF I spotted someone(or more) to spy me in reality, some would end up to the hospital with A LOT of broken bones(maybe in the end I'd end up there as well, but it doesn't matter when something is so important for someone). If certain EU countries want that laws to apply in their country, be my guest or have EU referendums for people to decide what they want and how the EU model should be(a public hanging of those fascists that want to turn the EU into a dictatorship, should be a good start, also).

Well, maybe I'm just furious every time I hear at the news that the ministers of the EU have new plans for the security(threat by whom, the moment specific EU countries begin wars, killings and then expect everything to be ok? Are we serious, or need psychiatric help? Wars bring terrorists: someone who lost he's family will want avenge, wouldn't YOU?)

I don't know: this time, I can't think of a specific party that could represent me, but, AT LEAST, even if I not agree with many things with thr communist ideology, they're the ONLY ones that fight STEADY for our rights to privacy, fight more than anyone else for better condition living by ALL clashes, and more(yes, they're in THEIR WORLD in other matters). Maybe I should vote them just to show to the idiots in my country(and in it's turn, to the EU), that are people WHO DO CARE for their privacy, and freedom.

Anyway...

 

[Xanikk999]

If you think the EU is fascist i cant imagine what you think about my country.

 

[Mirc]

I am not really an EU citizen, but I will become in January the 1st 2007. But I haven't noticed any fascism. I'm one of those "EU fanatics" (fanatic in the good sense, the same as we all here are CivFanatics).

 

[Hotpoint]

Most of the decision making power in the EU really still resides with the Council of Ministers rather than the Commision so despite stories of unelected bureaucrats running the European Union that's not nearly as much the case as many people think.

Personally I'd transfer more power to the European Parliament, and even ideally have a directly elected EU President, but calling it Fascist is silly. At worst its overly technocratic.

 

[Kozmos]

Technocratic Demosocialism ftw.

 

[King Alexander]

If you think the EU is fascist i cant imagine what you think about my country.

It's a Republic, right? I won't comment for another country right now, because I'm talking for the place I live and my life can be effected.

Yes, that laws are FASCIST. I already told it, and when I express things that annoy me VERY MUCH, that shows I'm dead serious: I don't like to be watched at any kind of form, and luckily that spying is mostly electronic nowadys for them, because if it wasn't clear enough from what I've said, I'm willing to DIE and send to the other world others as well, for my privacy and freedom(if the spying was illegal without a judges' allowance and ONLY in that case, I'd be willing to go to the court, but when it's jungle out there, I'll behave as a hunter), no hard feelings, plain and simple.

I am not really an EU citizen, but I will become in January the 1st 2007. But I haven't noticed any fascism. I'm one of those "EU fanatics" (fanatic in the good sense, the same as we all here are CivFanatics).

Just comment on what do you think about the things I mentioned(like all the telephone recordings been spyed and the data stored for 2 yeas, violate every current law - soon to be obsolete- about tracking you any time they feel for it by your cellphone, the new passports that have specific requirements so that cameras' can track you down, and other).
For the cameras, the police department says they're only for the traffic: I wish that's the truth for their good. Unforturnately, those cameras are high and I can't see what they do, otherwise, if I saw a camera specifically watching me and it was within reach... no, I wouldn't destroy it, I'D ATE IT!!!

Edited

 

[Kozmos]

Are you a mutant?Then chill cause I dont see much alarm because of this.

 

[King Alexander]

Oh yes: one of my options of what to vote at the next elections(it's not 100% certain, as I constantly judge the other parties as well, as the goverment, but they're somewhat, dissaponting) is the communistic party in my country, because THEY'RE POOR! No, I'm not starving to death, but I'm tired of being ruled by millionaires or billionaires that don't listen to what the people want.
At least, now they're poor, if they became richer and FORGOT what they once said and promished, I'd start to look for other parties.

Of course, that goes for the rest of the world as well, apart from my country(politicians with scandals that became much richer in the end, ruling "politician" families that are very rich and are much like an "Democratically elected Monarchy" - their father-uncle-cousin was once prime minister or a simple minister and their sons and daughters now are ministers, etc...)

Are you a mutant?Then chill cause I dont see much alarm because of this.

I'm relaxed, no problem, I've warned: I don't like to be watched in any kind of form. Those that're supposed to spy the people, better watch out if they wish to be helathy.

 

[Zwelgje]

I think what they want to store is what phonecalls you've made and what websites you've visited so they don't want to store actual content of your conversations/webvisits. So I'm not too bothered by what they want to store but I'm more bothered that they want to put such an effort into something that's not going to help very much in any way.

You are right that the whole decision making in Brussels just has no basis in the individuals living in the EU, basically making the division between the people and the EU leadership bigger with every unpopular decision they make. It's not for nothing that the French and Dutch voted against the EU constitution. It's just lack of trust.

 

[Winner]

First, this is a topic which I want to know what other european posters think about and the topic is aimed to them, no hard feelings.
Secondly, maybe other fellow citizens share the same opinion with me or not, but I certainly DO NOT represent my people neither want to. This is my personal opinion only.

Your personal opinion is obviously wrong, un-European and you will soon be moved to a re-education joycamp:

Well, as time passes by, I'm becoming more and more dissapointed and furious with the Brussels' IDIOTS that taking CRITICAL decisions without making referendums or, at least, have a dialog with the citizens for critical matters.

You're surely aware of the fact, that many of the anti-democratic laws in lot of dictatorships were approved in referendums, right?
European citizens seem to ignore the EU, they don't want to talk with its officials, they simply keep saying "you're not asking us first". And whenever they are, they use it to bash their local governments. So my dear european citizens, go to hell! I don't care what do you think, if you do think, because you obviously don't even know, what do you want.

Why am I telling all this? EU, and every European country alone, has NEVER been so FASCIST and undemocratical.

Huge exaggeration at best. Ignorance is a better word. You can't seriously compare current Europe with fascist, nazi or communist dictatorships. We had a totalitarian regime here 17 years ago and I think it was much, much worse that what we have now.

Even at the 70's that our allies from the other side of the pacific had promoted-supported the Junta for 7 years, that dictatorship wasn't keeping RECORDS of the citizens so well-thought and regarding as much as what the EU is proposing more and more.
Telephone conversations been recorded and the data to be stored for 2 years, been spotted by tracking the cellphone over GPS(that's how other people got arrested in another EU country), and I really don't know what more CRAP the "wise" that rule us want to do.

So, at first: they don't keep record of what you're saying! They keep record of the numbers you're calling, that's all. If it turns out you're a terrorist, they can more easily find your contacts.

Maybe non-EU countries want to also promote in EU the same crap they have at their country: well, I don't care A BIT, and I'm willing to fight for my rights, freedom and PRIVACY, yes, if I had to choose over a) compromise with what the non-EU countries want and b)the EU have a war with them regarding the passing of that laws, I'd choose the b, hands down. I value my privacy VERY MUCH.

So do I, but I don't see the reason why are you so concerned. Governments are doing nothing compared to the previous regime in the Eastern Bloc.

I don't care what those that're ruling plan: when I say it's very annoying for me to been spyed, I mean to, and IF I spotted someone(or more) to spy me in reality, some would end up to the hospital with A LOT of broken bones(maybe in the end I'd end up there as well, but it doesn't matter when something is so important for someone). If certain EU countries want that laws to apply in their country, be my guest or have EU referendums for people to decide what they want and how the EU model should be(a public hanging of those fascists that want to turn the EU into a dictatorship, should be a good start, also).

Well, maybe I'm just furious every time I hear at the news that the ministers of the EU have new plans for the security(threat by whom, the moment specific EU countries begin wars, killings and then expect everything to be ok? Are we serious, or need psychiatric help? Wars bring terrorists: someone who lost he's family will want avenge, wouldn't YOU?)

EU is threatened. There are millions of possible suicide bombers present in the Western European countries with sizable Muslim minorities. Better to be prepared, because the dark times are comming.

I don't know: this time, I can't think of a specific party that could represent me, but, AT LEAST, even if I not agree with many things with thr communist ideology, they're the ONLY ones that fight STEADY for our rights to privacy, fight more than anyone else for better condition living by ALL clashes, and more(yes, they're in THEIR WORLD in other matters). Maybe I should vote them just to show to the idiots in my country(and in it's turn, to the EU), that are people WHO DO CARE for their privacy, and freedom.
Anyway...

If you seriously think that communists want to protect your rights, you're totally naive. Just learn about the history of the new EU members states.

 

[King Alexander]

I think what they want to store is what phonecalls you've made and what websites you've visited so they don't want to store actual content of your conversations/webvisits.

That's spying and tracking and it's the same for me, let's not kid ourseleves: if they know at which places you go, they already know much about what you do your personal and free time, and that's fascist. That's EXCACTLY what the Junta did, a few decades ago.

So I'm not too bothered by what they want to store but I'm more bothered that they want to put such an effort into something that's not going to help very much in any way.

I'm VERY bothered, because there were some times(not done every day) when officials overused their power to spy ILLEGALY people. Now, just imagine when they say they ONLY keep track on what places you go, who's to assure ME and every other citizen that they don't keep record/summary of our conversations? Are we allowed to go find for ourselves and see our OWN, INDIVIDUAL name-briefs? No? Alwright then, is it allowed a representive team of the people to go and check their records on what they keep or not?
I certainly don't trust them, as they have misued their power in the past, in all the EU countries.

The Junta also kept records and jailed people based on where they had go, etc... I don't see a differenc.

You are right that the whole decision making in Brussels just has no basis in the individuals living in the EU, basically making the division between the people and the EU leadership bigger with every unpopular decision they make. It's not for nothing that the French and Dutch voted against the EU constitution. It's just lack of trust.

Right, but the ones that AGREE or NOT to those decisions are representatives or OUR goverments..., so, OUR goverments are the ones to blame ALSO, not only those in Brussels. If our goverments don't agree and don't sign what they want, they can't do nothing.

 

[CartesianFart]

To King Alexander:

What are the political party in Greece and what are their platform?Just asking due to my lack of knowledge of Greece politics.

 

[Zwelgje]

EU is threatened. There are millions of possible suicide bombers present in the Western European countries with sizable Muslim minorities. Better to be prepared, because the dark times are comming.

Stop believing that propaganda. Europe has always know terrorism since the early seventies and it's not going to change and these laws are not going to prevent people from placing bombs.
I'd rather die than give up my freedom and privacy because without freedom and privacy I don't even want to live.

 

[King Alexander]

Your personal opinion is obviously wrong, un-European and you will soon be moved to a re-education joycamp:

I only wish they tried to do so!

You're surely aware of the fact, that many of the anti-democratic laws in lot of dictatorships were approved in referendums, right?

What does that say, to TRUST referendums under a dictatorship? Fake results cooked with potatoes and ready for serving...

European citizens seem to ignore the EU, they don't want to talk with its officials, they simply keep saying "you're not asking us first". And whenever they are, they use it to bash their local governments. So my dear european citizens, go to hell! I don't care what do you think, if you do think, because you obviously don't even know, what do you want.

I certainly DON'T remember any EU official to come to my country, and start a breifing with the people or be open to questions from the people based on polls that show that worries the people.

Secondly, how many times do YOU remember your officials to go from city to city in YOUR country to inform the people from up and close for the EU's propositions, and SIT DOWN on their ass and LISTEN of what the people have to answer on their monologues, what worries them and WHAT CAN BE DONE to their worries?

I ask for a direct Democracy, plain and simple. If the people doesn't not APPROVE of something then, the goverment CANNOT proceed and do that, plain and simple. Time passes by, and the modern world and economies are evolving so fast, and with them the people also, and they're tired of professional politicians who do nothing and are DEAF after the elections.

Huge exaggeration at best. Ignorance is a better word. You can't seriously compare current Europe with fascist, nazi or communist dictatorships. We had a totalitarian regime here 17 years ago and I think it was much, much worse that what we have now.

I'm not saying that are true fascist, but they're semi-fascist at least, when they keep tracks and records. The vast majority in my country doesn't want/like to be spyed: we don't care what the heck they want to do in other EU countries, but our WILL should be respected, otherwise, we have a dictatorship commanded by the Brussels(and in alliance with our own goverment) and not a Democracy.

So, at first: they don't keep record of what you're saying! They keep record of the numbers you're calling, that's all. If it turns out you're a terrorist, they can more easily find your contacts.

Look, we never had terrorists that did what they some other countries experienced. Yes, they did throw molotov cocktails in banks, offices and such, and HAD killed an individual once every couple of years, but that was it, no big scale things IN ANY CASE.

We haven't attacked other nations to spoil our relationships and fill with anger and rage desperate people who their lives were ruined thanks to us and want revenge for their families and their destroyed dreams.
We had and STILL have very good relationships with the Arabs in general, much better of most other EU countries.

Imported terrorists? Only some anarchoterrorists we had-have and those who killed some people are in jail now.

So do I, but I don't see the reason why are you so concerned. Governments are doing nothing compared to the previous regime in the Eastern Bloc.

They're going into that direction, that's for sure.

EU is threatened. There are millions of possible suicide bombers present in the Western European countries with sizable Muslim minorities. Better to be prepared, because the dark times are comming.

See above. I already answered that. The countries that're SO MUCH worried about the immigrants they have, they should deport them, make them citizens or do what the heck they want with them, but NOT enforce FASCIST laws into the whole EU, have I made myself clear enough?

If you seriously think that communists want to protect your rights, you're totally naive. Just learn about the history of the new EU members states.

I don't see how the current goverments want to protect my rights, the communists at least fight and demonstrate very often for the people's rights here, and they're the ONLY ones that still fight from our current parties, I don't know what they do in your country, but you certainly experienced the fascism commanded Stalin and the rest, so I understand you.

I already said that I don't support a specific party or the communists in particular(their theory is flawed in a good percentage, but they're right in some things as well), but, you must have noticed by now that, there're no major differences in the modern-day parties: maybe 20 years ago they supported and DONE other things, they walked the walk, but today, socialist can mean even a right-wing economy-action party.

I certainly have the guts to support that party that will bring a good change, I'm not stuck between two idiotic parties that neither delivers and just fools the - brainwashed to vote them every time, no matter what - people(which is the case in all the modern west "Democracies").

 

[King Alexander]

To King Alexander:

What are the political party in Greece and what are their platform?Just asking due to my lack of knowledge of Greece politics.

It's not much different that in any other EU country, so to speak. I already explained it in my previous post: today's parties may be "called" socialist or centrist or whatever but, in reality, they all follow economic models that are too harsh without caring, for example, if those in pension can have a decnt life.

They may be "called" whatever, but when they go in Brussels, they vote for whatever the Brusselists want without being true to what they had said/promished the people, pre-elections time. The same with the foreign affairs. Total "colorless" parties, that the only thing to care is how NOT to lose the power(be always at the goverment), when they should be care how to DO things better for their citizens(and if neccessary, even stop being paid themselves and not vote decisions to buy cars from the taxpayers money when the economy isn't at it's best --- better to do what they do in Sweden where the politicians just get paid with a small-symbolic pension per month, if I'm not mistaken).

Parties doing critical things without caring what the citizens want/think. They just govern like kings, until the next elections when they begin their lies once again(and the SHEEP still vote fot them )

To be fair, our politicians recently voted for a law(the polls showed the people wanted it) that forbids them to buy stocks at the stockmarket(and also sell what they already had), when in other countries ministers own stocks from weapon-manufacturers and guess how rich they're going to get if a war happens.

Edited.

 

[Syntherio]

There is no need for histeria. The plan 2006/24/EG don´t include the record of the text of an e-mail or a communication. Only your number, the number you call, your provider, your ip (if you are online), the date, the time and your approximate position (if you use a handy - but not by using GPS, they just know the city, where you are - the same do they know, if you use youre home telephone) are recorded. Those informations can only be used, when you are a proved criminal or if you had contact with a catched criminal and not without that.
The European Parliament accepted this law in Dec 14th 2005 with 378 to 197 votes and discussed it already one year before that.

The only thing, I worry about, is that the EU still make laws about how large an apple must be, to receive the title "apple"... (just an example, damned bureaucracy...)

And last: Calm down Winner, no need to take something personel. And there is no reason to be ignorant, just because something is not yet as bad as it was somewhere else before.

EDIT: A direct democracy would be great... but i think it will lasts a "few" years until we have that...

 

[garric]

Every time I visit the EU I get the impression that everyone there is a left wing loonie. And you're telling me that the EU is fascist? I don't get it.

 

[Winner]

Stop believing that propaganda. Europe has always know terrorism since the early seventies and it's not going to change and these laws are not going to prevent people from placing bombs.
I'd rather die than give up my freedom and privacy because without freedom and privacy I don't even want to live.

What propaganda? The only propaganda I see is that Muslims are our friends, that they all like us and the terrorists are just poor individuals, who have nothing to do with Islam. Right

Terrorism of the 70's was motivated by something profoundly different. Islamic terrorism is much more dangerous in the long term. Extreme times need extreme measures.

 

[willemvanoranje]

All of this does not make Europe fascist.. at all. If at all, you should use something like "totalitarian". Think about it, russians were spyed on by there government too.. and it's a bit strange to call them fascist, isn't it?

Anyway, I'm pro-EU, and although I do agree that there are limits, I do not think that the EU is actually close to disaster in this case.

 

[Grisu]

What propaganda? The only propaganda I see is that Muslims are our friends, that they all like us and the terrorists are just poor individuals, who have nothing to do with Islam. Right

Terrorism of the 70's was motivated by something profoundly different. Islamic terrorism is much more dangerous in the long term. Extreme times need extreme measures.

that last sentance could be taken right out of any given dictators handbook.

It's true, there are many potential terrorists in europe, several hunder million actially

While I don't share KA's extreme hatred for this law, the trend certainly is worrying to me too.

@KA: would you say that your government would stop this law, if it could? We're not in the EU, but the way it looks, similar laws will be introduced here too, by our own government. Though there's probably going to be a referendum about it, if they do...