Future of Belarus - Poland and EU or Russia?

[Traitorfish]

The Byzantines Greeks and the modern Greeks are one and the same. In fact, Modern Greeks have more simiralities to the Byzantines than to the Ancient Greeks.

Primordialist nonsense aside, what does that have to do with the claim that the Greek Republic is any meaningful sense the "successor" of the Byzantine Empire?

I don't think it's so ridiculous to suggest a continuous existence of the Polish nation. In fact, I would say it's ridiculous to suggest that this continuous existence did not occur.

What you claim is really quite disingenuous and silly and.. well.. I'm not even convinced that you're not pulling my leg here. The difference really is Polish state vs Polish nation.
If we're just talking about the Polish state, as it exists today, then you are right. If we are talking about the Polish nation, then you're very wrong.

I'm talking about the Polish state, yes. Whether or not such a thing as a "Polish nation" exists, it cannot be plausibly argued that there exists any mechanism by which these nations incarnate themselves as territorial polities, so even if we accept the existence of a "Polish nation" in the 16th century and its persistence until the present day, we don't have any reason to think that there exists anything more than an imaginary, wholly symbolic continuity between the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Polish Republic.

 

[Lord Baal]

I am disappointed that Traitorfish is not 1500 years old, but otherwise agree with him entirely.

 

[Kyriakos]

Traitorfish is just envious that some people here are direct descendants of the Byzantine emperors

I guess he prefers being associated with proletariat-types though...

 

[caketastydelish]

It's too bad Britain is still around or the US could claim to be the rightful successors to the British Empire.

They could if their capital was in London or at least somewhere in the UK.

The day oil is discovered in the UK is the day US can 'claim to be the rightful successors to the British Empire', then.

 

[TheLastOne36]

By these standards, Belorussia is a successor of Kievan Rus.
Russia and Ukraine too.

No. By these standards, only Russia is.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I am disappointed that Traitorfish is not 1500 years old, but otherwise agree with him entirely.

Just imagine the Commie beard you could have after 1500 years.

 

[red_elk]

No. By these standards, only Russia is.

Why? Ukrainian and Belorussian heartlands were part of Kievan Rus too. Their language, culture, religion also take roots from there.

 

[christos200]

You Americans are just jealous that you have just 300 years of history while we Greeks have 4000.

 

[Lord Baal]

You Americans are just jealous that you have just 300 years of history while we Greeks have 4000.

Actually, the current Greek state has existed for less time than the US, and it is impossible to talk about the existence of a Greek 'nation' during the periods of Macedonian, Roman and Ottoman rule. Not one continuous culture, at any rate.

 

[Kyriakos]

Sure you can. "Egypt: welcome to our 7nth millenium". "Ask a Persian". "Poland reunites with its vassals". The list is endless

Besides, Byzantine Empire #1 even if it does not exist at the moment

 

[Lord Baal]

Sure you can. "Egypt: welcome to our 7nth millenium". "Ask a Persian". "Poland reunites with its vassals". The list is endless

Besides, Byzantine Empire #1 even if it does not exist at the moment

An Iranian-dominated state has existed in the Persian Gulf region more often than not and has only ever been eclipsed for short periods of time, so they have a considerably better claim than anybody else to being a continuation of the culture of their ancient forebears, but considering the differences in religion and language, it's still not a very good one.

 

[christos200]

We have the same names, traditions, religion and language as the Byzantines. So Modern Greeks can be considered descentants of the Byzantines.

Also the Japanese have the best claim of continuation.

 

[Lone Wolf]

It never included more than a portion of Belarus, and that only as a wartime occupation.

Eh, interwar Poland controlled quite a lot of modern Belorussian territory.

Whether or not such a thing as a "Polish nation" exists, it cannot be plausibly argued that there exists any mechanism by which these nations incarnate themselves as territorial polities, so even if we accept the existence of a "Polish nation" in the 16th century and its persistence until the present day, we don't have any reason to think that there exists anything more than an imaginary, wholly symbolic continuity between the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Polish Republic.

Dunno. Would you say that there's no continuity between modern Russia and late USSR? Two different states can obviously have quite a high degree of continuity.

 

[Lord Baal]

We have the same names, traditions, religion and language as the Byzantines. So Modern Greeks can be considered descentants of the Byzantines.

Also the Japanese have the best claim of continuation.

The Greek language was somewhat recreated by Greek nationalists in the period immediately preceding and following the War of Independence. The traditions and religion are absolutely nothing alike. Do you realise how much the Greek Orthodox faith has changed in the last six hundred years? Religions are not static; neither are traditions, nor languages. The names I cannot comment on, but given the linguistic and cultural shifts I find it highly unlikely.

 

[christos200]

What? Do you even know Greek names or the Greek language? Only Katharevousa was created by the Greeks after the revolution. The majority of the people spoke and still speak the Dimotiki, which is the evolution of the Byzantine Greek.

Also, where the names Theodoros, Nikiphoros, Theofilos and many others come, if not from Byzantine names?

You seem to think that the Modern Greek has nothing to do with the Ancient or Byzantine Greek. That is wrong. Any Greek, with the basic education, can read and understand, at least the general meaning, of a book in Ancient or Byzantine Greek. I have read both Ancient and Byzantine Greek and I do not see much change in the language.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Do you realise how much the Greek Orthodox faith has changed in the last six hundred years?

Eh, by that standard all religions that exist in the modern world can't claim any notable continuity, which is sort of ridiculous.

Religions are not static; neither are traditions, nor languages.

Well, you can be continuous without being static.

The names I cannot comment on, but given the linguistic and cultural shifts I find it highly unlikely.

Names are hard to dislodge. Most Russian (and European) names today have Greek and Hebrew-moderared-though-Greek origins. Certain names' popularity waxed and waned, sure. In Russia, the most notable change was delegation of respectable Byzantine Greek-derived names like Nikiphor (from Nikiphoros) and Thecla to distinctly low-class rustic status.

A better claim against Greek-Byzantine continuity would rely on Greek enlightenment's (Adamantios Korais et al) perception of Byzantium as a mostly foreign entity. Even Paparrigopoulos, the famous Greek historian who definitely proclaimed Byzantine-Greek continuity (establishing the modern Greek national mythos today), issued statements that imply the contrary in the beginning of his career. See also popular pre-1820's perception of Constantine I, not any of the ancient Greek heroes, as the founder of "our state".

 

[christos200]

Those who were educated in the West were influenced by the Western propaganda, which saw Byzantium as a dark theocratic Empire and said that the West was the heir of classical Greece and Rome.

Most people in Greece at that time called themselves Romioi (Romans). It is really a very complex historical situation, since the people viewed the Byzantines as Greeks and during the Greek War of Independence, until the first constitution, the Greek state used the laws of the Byzantine Emperors.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Pre-1820 people of Greece definitely viewed Byzantium as "their own" (that led to some inaccurate perceptions of early ERE - that's the reason Constantine I is so often portrayed as a 15th century Byzantine emperor on icons*). To what extent they viewed Classical Greece as "their own" is more questionable. The current continuity is as much creation of intellectuals as the Enlightenment refusal to entertain any

*To what extent Byzantium is continuous with itself?

 

[christos200]

According to most historians, Byzantine became completly hellenized under Heraclius. Also, even during the time of thr Roman Empire, the Eastern part was more Greek in culture than Latin, which led to the division of Europe (after the fall of Rome) between Latin West and Greek East.

 

[Ajidica]

Dunno. Would you say that there's no continuity between modern Russia and late USSR? Two different states can obviously have quite a high degree of continuity.

I could have sworn the current Russian Federation was the exact same legal entity as the RSFSR, just with a name change. Due to how the legal breakup of the USSR occurred they got the legal responsibilities of the USSR.