Future of Orbis - Civ5 incarnation discussion

[Ahwaric]

As I have already informed, I am working on Orbis 2 for Civilization 5.
The mod is not even at an alpha stage, so I decided not to start a thread in mods subforum for Civ 5.

On the other hand, I want to inform you how it is going (as I am still ashamed for being silent this summer). Plus want to get your feedback and ideas. I think this place is best for such a thread, as we will discuss a new incarnation of Orbis.
I am expecting mostly ideas feedback, so it is ok if you know nothing about civ 5. I will explain everything that has to be done differently in Civ5 anyway.

So, general description.
Orbis 2 will no longer be based on FfH2 (especially as I do not think there will be FfH for Civ5 ). Instead, it will expand the things that were unique to Orbis. I want the whole mod to reflect the real world history, but have a fantasy elements, too. Also, economy is of prime concern.
Just as it was in FfH2 I want the civs to be as unique as possible – and you know that I tried to improve that even further in Orbis. Moreover, units should be diverse and complement each other.

The mythology will be different. Not sure how exactly it will end, especially as there are no religions in Civ5 as of now (but there are some tags that might be used for religions in the future).

I am not sure if I should reveal my plans, but I guess there are many things that will be surprise until the release day

 

[Ahwaric]

Techs
Tech tree is the basis of any Civ mod (well, almost any). So, I started with it. In general, the tech tree starts in ancient age. The next is bronze, then classical, medieval , renaissance and steam. There is also future era, but not sure if it will stay. First, everything is just as a normal world was, but later it starts to diverge. In classical era spellcasting units (priest type) will start, then in medieval era mages will make appearance. In renaissance many techs will be spellcasting oriented, improving your mages, but I want to link these to the real world.

For example, animation tech is planned to enable golems. For every tech (if possible) I have checked the date of the appropriate discovery – and for animation it is 1600 AD – the most famous legend of the golem is the one associated with rabbi Judah Loew ben Bezalel, who lived in Prague in late 16th century. Of course, some techs will have to be moved for gameplay reasons or created without such references, but I want to use it whenever possible

During renaissance era, another diverge will manifest. I want player to choose if he want to play as magic or technological empire. Some techs will be generic, but other will be exclusive. Tech oriented will also be different than real world – I want the end to either be magic or steam punk, according to players choice.

UPDATE:
Here is my current tech tree. It will of course change, plus I need to add more things to it - is quite empty right now. But it is a start.
Magic exclusive techs will start from occultism, tech exclusive at physics.

UPDATE 28.11.2010
Here is my new tech tree. Expanded, adjusted, and better filled.

 

[Ahwaric]

Civilizations
Civs will be different than in Orbis/FfH2. Even if they are simillar to the old ones, I want to start with a new name – to avoid confusion and shape them at least a bit differently
Civs already added (just initial code):

1. Imperium - capital centered; Rome/Byzantium
2. Touraine - feudal kingdom (knights etc); England/France
3. Palatinate - strong cities, great infantry; Holy Roman Empire
4. Verrata - merchant republic, naval superpower; Venetian style
5. Ulfhednar - northern lycanthropic barbarians; Viking style
6. Sugdos - excellent horse archers; Scythians/Amazons
7. Amoan - middle east desert dwellers; Arabia/Babylon (actually Aramaic Damascus )
8. Burenia - gothic vampires; Transylvanian style
9. Galadhae - wood elves
10. Khazad - dwarves
11. Rifmud - undead; Egyptian style

Some more ideas for civs

1. High elves – magic oriented – high magic; bonus – not decided (culture?)
2. Human mages - Amurite style
3. Sailors – Lanun/Pirates (English/Dutch or Polynesian) – neutral, live at sea; navy bonuses
4. Dao – neutral/magic, far east alchemists and elementalists
5. asian shamanistics civ (tibatan/syberian/japanise?)
6. Artificiers – tech oriented (Mechanos), robotics and steampunk techs bonuses
7. Mesoamerican civ - Aztec, lizard or Yuan-ti flavour
8. Skaven - race blending magic & tech (might go for two, Skaven and gnomes)
9. secret... or even a few

There is more but not well developed.
In general there is no alignment planned, I want this world to be grey (I want both magic and tech to have dark side). Plus, not sure if AI can ever be made to recognize good from evil.

 

[Valkrionn]

Looks interesting.

On alignment: Yeah, Eden won't have good/evil either. Nor law/chaos. Of course, that doesn't mean it won't have something rather LIKE alignment.

We're in the planning stages on many things, but once we get to implementing (as in, get DLL access), I'll let you know if we add anything you might find useful.

Edit: Just so you know who "we" is: Grey Fox, myself, Xienwolf, Warkirby, and Opera.

 

[Jarrema]

I would love eguptian-styled undead... With their tombs, burried treasures, and those mummy wrappings
Maybe with bonuses to wonder building?

I think there is a lack of "stealthy/rogue" civ - something that would be at least somewhat similar to Svartalfar

The more this list of civs leans toward Warhammenr, the more I like it

 

[Seon]

Undead Egyptian king civ, admittedly, sounds awesome. What would be even nicer to have in this game is mandatory Lovecraftian illithid people.

Important question: would there be something akin to religion/corporation (curse you Sid!!!) in this game?

Edit: Valkrion...why must you torture us so?...

 

[Tarquelne]

There is more but not well developed.

Do you have a unifying mythology/rationale/alternate history/whatever for the world already? I love that sort of thing.

[*]Werewolfs – Doviello/Norse themed, neutral - barbarians that can turn into werewolves, but also are daring sea explorers and traders; combat bonuses, but population penalty

Perhaps a second shape-shifter civ with an Asian flavor containing several different shifters? Tigers might be dominant. More culture than combat oriented, but insular.

"In the First Days many tribes made pacts with animal spirits. When they met they always knew each other by scent, and passed in peace. But they were also of man, and when the words came they talked, and settled near each other. The people of the wolf were many, and strong together, and traveled far and wide. They were the first leaders of the were-peoples, and then the first conquerors.

Finally the snake and the tiger together drove the wolf away to the cold shores. For long years were of many clans live together in our mountains and jungles. But now the world is changing. There is smoke on the far horizon. There are other peoples, not of the spirit clans. We will meet them in peace, or in war. But we also watch for the lost spirit clan, the one with which there can be no peace. We watch for the wolf."

[*]Wood elves – magic oriented, but more into priest/nature magic; forest bonuses
[*]High elves – magic oriented – high magic; bonus – not decided (culture?)

I think it'd be fun if high elves could get either a magic or a tech bonus. (Maybe just a research bonus?)

Assuming you're not an elf fan... Perhaps replace the elves (and maybe the dwarves) with beast/were people?

Hmm... I guess unit-art might be strong reason to keep with the good ol' Elves and Dwarves. Though I think it'd be neat if you developed your own humanoids.

[*]Sailors – Lanun/Pirates – neutral, live at sea; navy bonuses

Polynesian flavor?

[*]Empire – neutral, an old empire (Byzantium), reduced in size but with powerful capital

Sounds particularly interesting.

[*]Undead – magic; Egyptian style (but maybe Scions?)
[*]Vampires – Calabim/Sylvania – magic, not sure if undead

Make them sort of mirror each other? Egyptian style civ is relatively benign, made up mostly of the living, and dominated by the dead. Sylvanian civ is relatively nasty and has fairly high undead population (though mostly "unskilled labor" types) dominated by the living. Maybe a Priest-Mage class. Lots of blood-magic.

 

[Ahwaric]

Looks interesting.

On alignment: Yeah, Eden won't have good/evil either. Nor law/chaos. Of course, that doesn't mean it won't have something rather LIKE alignment.

We're in the planning stages on many things, but once we get to implementing (as in, get DLL access), I'll let you know if we add anything you might find useful.

Edit: Just so you know who "we" is: Grey Fox, myself, Xienwolf, Warkirby, and Opera.

Looks very interesting. Judging from the team, it will be great
And a great place to steal code

I would love eguptian-styled undead... With their tombs, burried treasures, and those mummy wrappings
Maybe with bonuses to wonder building?
I think there is a lack of "stealthy/rogue" civ - something that would be at least somewhat similar to Svartalfar
The more this list of civs leans toward Warhammenr, the more I like it

Warhammer is one of my sources of inspiration, especially regarding civs. The undead civ is modelled after Tomb Kings, but only in general idea. The rest will probably be my own creation.
The stealthy civ only makes sense if there is any use for stealth. I would love to add such civ, but first I need to know civ5 better and see what are the effects of my modding.

Undead Egyptian king civ, admittedly, sounds awesome. What would be even nicer to have in this game is mandatory Lovecraftian illithid people.
Important question: would there be something akin to religion/corporation (curse you Sid!!!) in this game?

Well, I hope they will add religions at some point, or that someone adds it once dll is released. There are some tags related to religion in the xml, so we never know...
If possible, I am going to add it. I already have ideas for 5 religions, though I am not saying anything more. First, just initial ideas, second, we will see what can be done - and when.
If corporations are avaliable, you can expect me to use them.
Not sure about illithid, will see later...

Do you have a unifying mythology/rationale/alternate history/whatever for the world already? I love that sort of thing.

For now, it is very general - but yes, I do. Once I expand it, I will probably post it somewhere.
In general, there are many gods, like the ones of polytheistic religions. They are quite active in worlds affairs (including granting magic), but generaly do not provoke large scale wars - that is human doing.
There is also one powerfull, distant God - he does not intervene directly, but grants some abilities to his believers. He is not superior to other gods - instead, he is beyond them. That is the part I need to develop further.
Also, there are spirits, both associatet with gods and indemendent ones. And beyond, there are demons

Perhaps a second shape-shifter civ with an Asian flavor containing several different shifters? Tigers might be dominant. More culture than combat oriented, but insular.

Nice idea - peacefull, shamanistic culture. Will see what can be done...

I think it'd be fun if high elves could get either a magic or a tech bonus. (Maybe just a research bonus?)

I like it - non-standard elves, with guns and power plants (perhaps with enslaved humans working in factories...)

Assuming you're not an elf fan... Perhaps replace the elves (and maybe the dwarves) with beast/were people?
Hmm... I guess unit-art might be strong reason to keep with the good ol' Elves and Dwarves. Though I think it'd be neat if you developed your own humanoids.

I am not an elf-fan, but these are archetypes are liked by many people. I can change the names and appereances, but I still want a forest civ and mountain/hill one. So why not simply elves & dwarves? Especially as there is plenty of art (when converted...).
I going for a mixture of standard civs and new ones.

Polynesian flavor?

I have been thinking more in english/dutch in terms of art, but I imagine this civ as settling small islands, so polynesian flavor fits. Time will tell...

Sounds particularly interesting.

It is not that original, but I want to add such civ. Roman flavor, but with high influence of late Byzantium - long history, ancient traditions, times of expansion are long over and it was reduced to one city where it all started, but that is the most magnificient city in the world.

Make them sort of mirror each other? Egyptian style civ is relatively benign, made up mostly of the living, and dominated by the dead. Sylvanian civ is relatively nasty and has fairly high undead population (though mostly "unskilled labor" types) dominated by the living. Maybe a Priest-Mage class. Lots of blood-magic.

I agree on mirroring, but I think the opposite. Egyptian is mostly undead - only some peasants are alive, not sure when they are decided expendable. Warriors, priests, kings etc are undead.
Vampires are just aristocracy ruling over the living, providing safety and some freedom, but merciless for any sign of revolt - and to outside enemies.
As I said, I am not sure if vampires will be true undead. The original ones of slavic and romanian folklore were, but the current cultural associations with vampires fit living beings much more.

 

[Valkrionn]

One thing to keep in mind: While of course someone will mod in religion in some form, there is no reason to expect (or want) that form to take the same shape as it did in Civ4.

Religion in Civ4 is absolute crap. In the original form, it was nothing more than a button you press to manipulate AI relationships; More effects were added to it in FfH and it's modmods, but tacking effects onto a faulty base does not fix the issue, it simply masks it.

If (when) someone takes the time to develop a religion system, I sincerely hope they try something new.

 

[Jarrema]

I agree on mirroring, but I think the opposite. Egyptian is mostly undead - only some peasants are alive, not sure when they are decided expendable. Warriors, priests, kings etc are undead.
Vampires are just aristocracy ruling over the living, providing safety and some freedom, but merciless for any sign of revolt - and to outside enemies.
As I said, I am not sure if vampires will be true undead. The original ones of slavic and romanian folklore were, but the current cultural associations with vampires fit living beings much more.

Yeah, it would be fun I would love something like Romanian/Slavic flavour for Vamps (those misterious castles in mountains, peasants that are afraid to go out after dark... I love Strahd from Ravenloft setting)

How about including race modeled (to lesser or bigger extend) on Warhammer Skavens?
I do not mean necessarilly "rat-people" (why not? it would not be bad, but not needed), but rather a civ that combine chaotic, dangerous magic with crazy technical engines... and additionally has some focus on stealth and mystery. It could be secon high-technology civ, with very different feel than Mechanos (opposite on Law-Chaos axis)

 

[Kalina]

With many civs having real-world-inspired flavors, it should be possible to just place them on Earth map.. so no trouble making 'official' map for mod
And good inspiration for flavor-inspired mechanics - for example, with polynesian Lanun (much better and more creative then standard pirates) you can make civ that deals with seas and jungles better then others.

 

[Jarrema]

With many civs having real-world-inspired flavors, it should be possible to just place them on Earth map.. so no trouble making 'official' map for mod
And good inspiration for flavor-inspired mechanics - for example, with polynesian Lanun (much better and more creative then standard pirates) you can make civ that deals with seas and jungles better then others.

But there would be too many civs in european/mediterrean region, I believe

 

[Seon]

How about Aztec civ which gets bonus by sacrificing pop?

 

[Jarrema]

How about Aztec civ which gets bonus by sacrificing pop?

What fantasy theme would match this design?

Maybe it could be an anti-tech civ of orcs or lizardmen, concentrated on magic, sacrifices, and rituals?

 

[Seon]

Actually I was more thinking along the line of cannibal humans serving some dark and evil god, but I guess it is fine with lizards.

 

[Smakemupagus]

looking forward to both Eden and Orbis2. (not to mention also looking forward to Kael fixing Elemental!) Good luck everyone!

 

[Kalina]

But there would be too many civs in european/mediterrean region, I believe

It's just matter of enlarging Europe, like in Rhye's and Fall or modifing map so it's similar but not identical to Earth - like Old World in Warhammer, Thea in 7th Sea and so on
Another thing is that making so many new civs is going to take a lot of time - especially if they are meant to be as different from each other as ones in FfH (so more then 1/2 unique unit/building and unique power).

Actually I was more thinking along the line of cannibal humans serving some dark and evil god, but I guess it is fine with lizards.

I like idea of humans better, also. After all, we had evil lizards in Orbis 1

 

[Jarrema]

Personally I would love to have not lizards, and not evil humans, but something based on Yuan-Ti theme - with they focus on sacrifices, mutations, subterfuge, and (at least in some settings) fervent worship of dark gods

 

[Kalina]

Yeah, snakes sound fun, though art might be pretty tough to find :/

 

[Valkrionn]

One thing I'll say: 14 civs is already quite a few. Get them developed and unique, before trying to add more.