Future Strategic Blueprint, or How to Ground Enemy Bones to Dust

And by which turn right?

The current plan goes to turn 76 (maybe 78 now that we are going to get a gold reserve). In that plan we have...
  • 5 cities
  • commerce is binary (either 0% or 100%) but with 2 galleys exploring it would run about 60%.
  • Religion has not yet been seriously discussed.
  • Iron Working, Writing then Sailing is the tech plan so far.
  • Maybe the question should be what wonders don't we want? Our plan is flexible enough that a decision is not yet imminent.

Alot depends on how many teams we meet by turn 80; that could have a massive effect on what techs we should research because of possible trades; it also affects how much we should risk spamming cities.

That said, I think we should get the Collosus @ sheep; we can get a granary in there at size 2 with a half full food bar and a workboat from IS for the fish, and have 2 workers mining the hills in time with growth. It's something like 30 turns from settling to size 6 with the Collosus, then we can either just leave it making workers/settlers/units at size 6, or throw in a lighthouse and lib and get it working all of the now 2/0/4 coastal tiles, making use of the happy cap at size 10 from rep (Collosus and pyramids would fall within a turn of one another) and then working all of the hills, food and a further 3 coastal tiles. Settle the two coastal sites I outlined above (no one has commented on that for quite a while BTW...) using galleys to ferry over the settlers and axes and workers (2 workers minimum, 3 would probably be enough) and then chopping out granaries and lighthouses and make them grow by working the coast.

CK and IS can easily make enough settlers workers and military to just plant cities everywhere. So long as we have 2 axes and 2 spears minimum for a front city, we could just keep on roading forward with 2 workers and shuffling a garrison forward into the next city every 5-10 turns, letting newly built units garrison the cities (so researching archery or trading for it could be very useful; archers are one turn builds in IS with just a forge at size 8). When we then put sheep onto expansion duty between turns 103 and 115 (growth is quick there with a lighthouse, t115 would be around the latest wee coudl get it to size 10), and maybe city 5 if it is working the four hills, then we are capable of something like an axe, spear, settler and 2 workers (well, 8/3 workers...), from those four cities every four turns; that's not even taking into account the cities that we can get up between t75 and t115.

We would also need to get a sentry net up. This is best accomplished with a mixture of archers on hills with sentry chariots underneath them. The chariots can kill any barb axes that get too close, and the archers can defend against the barb spears. Because of the extra line of sight of a sentry unit, we wouldn;t need as many units in the sentry net, so it would be cheaper in gold terms, if at most a little more expensive in hammers than using axes as sentries.

Religion will be useful, but is in no way critical to our success. Maths would be useful for better chops. But honestly, after IW, so long as we get those two wonders, we don't need anything else to be successful other than not to get dogpiled. Anything else we can get is just icing on the cake...

EDIT: There is one wonder that we want to consider from an annoyance PoV though...the SoZ will screw over any team that tries to attack us with WW. We have Ivory so it only costs us 150 hammers. We could easily build it in CK while growing it to size 8. It does require 3 monuments though, so we would have to pay an extra 90 hammers for those. Best cities would be CK, IS because they are 1/2 turns builds depending on when they are built and city 5, as theat would let it pop the borders that little bit quicker and claim horses.
 
....Settle the two coastal sites I outlined above (no one has commented on that for quite a while BTW...) ...

That is because before we have even decided on the plan up to turn 78 you want to start making decisions for turns 80 through 100. Maybe you should make a "Really Distant Planning Thread" too :lol:

Seriously though I'll comment on it as soon as I catch up to you.


EDIT: There is one wonder that we want to consider from an annoyance PoV though...the SoZ

Now I know there is no wonder you will say no to!
 
A powerful army is a useful deterrent. If someone is looking to go to war they will decide which opponent is weakest and closest. If that civ has the protection of Zeus then they will make plans to deal with the additional weariness rather than attack someone stronger or farther.
 
That is because before we have even decided on the plan up to turn 78 you want to start making decisions for turns 80 through 100. Maybe you should make a "Really Distant Planning Thread" too :lol:

I don't want the decisions made, but I think we need to decide on a general direction; at the very least, it wouldn't hurt to highlight the outcomes of different decisions. And city 5 is not going to be settled any later if we save gold now and delay IW, because all we need are roads down there, and chopping jungle only affects JD. Getting IW later means we can;t chop jungle and so the roads to the city 5 site get put in place quicker. Mainly it's a decision on how much sooner we want city 5 down, and I think the t74 settling on city 5 is pretty safe.


Now I know there is no wonder you will say no to!

It's not that I love all of the wonders; I could happily play an SP game without any wonders. One does have to take into account the effect of a wonder on your position, but also the denial value to the enemy. The Oracle and SoZ are very much wonders that have great denial value; the collosus and pyramids not really, but the reasons we would want them are that they have a massive benefit on our economy for relatively little cost (the Pyramids are the one wonder that no team can treally afforsd to build, it's just too expecnsive, but we could get it at the cost of our first Great Person and an oppurtunity cost of something like 68 hammers/food, instead of a straight 500 hammers).

We could make a case for every wonder; I would love it if we could get the GL, but to highlight the cost there, it's 900 beakers to research the required techs, and leaves us open without any military techs other than IW and BW. But if no team has researched Aesthetics by turn 110, we could easily go straight for it as we would have had plenty of team to fill in useful military techs either via own research or trades, and we could mitigate the problem that some teams would not want to buy those techs off us if we have the GL by offering to loan them Barentz, if he were already 10XP, to open up the HE (only wise to do with allies). The cost of the wonder itself is 350 hammers without marble or OR, and to take the full benefit of the GL we would want it in a city with the NE. That means sheep, so sheep would then be foreced into being a GS pump (not a bad thing) but that does leave us with less naval production, although that isn't so bad if we had IS on the west and a production city on the eastern annex.

I wouldn't say no to a wonder if it came up with a positive cost/benefit analysis, I'd be more likely to say no if the oppurtunity cost were too high.


azzaman said:
Sure, it shouldn't be the only deterrent, but I definately wouldn't want to be fighting someone with the SoZ.

azzaman has the right idea about how to utilise the SoZ; walk softly and carry a big stick. The SoZ isn't a substitute for a good army, but it can force the team that is attacking you to up the culture slider, build theatres, and tech slower because of the WW, screwing them over with respect to third parties not in the war. It's the most annoying wonder in the game, after the AP (personally the team that builds the AP I would invade unilaterally to raze the city with teh AP in), I don;t want to build it as it's another 2.4 settlers, but it's worth oh so much more than 2.4 settlers to diplomacy and warfare.
 
Something else to comment on: So long as the plan doesn't get interrupted by events, we get the GE on eot T101, so we could get the pyramids eot T102; we could change to rep at any point there after, but we would be best suited to change to another civic at the same time; the only one that we are 100% certain to have is slavery, although it is possible that we got CoL by then for Caste (which would be useful in speeding up the GS, whish is most quickly produced in JD).

There are three techs that are central to the Clasical era that all cost the same; Code of Laws, Calendar and Construction, at 522 beakers (according to F6, it's lower in reality due to multipliers etc). We want all three, for expansion, Caste, and better espionage (courthouses are expensive but useful in our position), for happiness, health, better tile yields, and good trading relations (1+1, could trade extras for more), and defense (catapults are fun). Ideally we can set up a three party trade with two other teams and each of us researches on of the techs, but life is rarely ideal. Your thoughts on this guys?

EDIT: And yes, I am going to keep on posting stuff like this whether you lot post or not, although it would be more productive if you did post and offered your own insights into useful strategies, as I'm only able to approach grand strategy from the MM and "Kill'em all" angles. I'm not used to being nice and using diplomacy to further my own ends, and everything that entails along with the impact on our strategic aims.
 
Arguably, if we were to go straight for CoL, we wouldn't require writing; we could just go IW>Sailing>CoL, although that has the same risks of not gaining any military techs...and we would have a great difficulty trading...
 
nah need writing time to cash in on our cheap libraries. if we get conf bonus, if we don't oh well.
 
Yeah, but (and it's a minor but) we will want maths for the extra hammers from chops. We have something like 10 forests we could chop by turn 100.

Something else we haven't actually considered though is that we will need alphabet...or are we just planning on trading for it? And if so, what are we wantint to trade for it?
 
depending how many people we meet....odds are they will want to trade MC for Alpha. if we are almost done the collousus i am ok with this.
 
Great, great stuff going on in this thread :thumbsup:
I'm supportive of the way this plan is unfolding. Love the Colossus and Pyramids idea. Agree with Memphus that getting confucianism is a good bonus but not necessary.

I just wanted to speak up to toss in my 2 cents as (currently non-acting) Daimyo of State that I think the Statue of Zeus is a good idea for us.

We're already at the top of every team's hit-list... getting the Pyramids and/or Colossus will NOT help that.

As 1889 points out, there is no substitute for having a big army and showing a well-defended front to any scouts.
That said - War Weariness tends to be a much bigger factor in Human-Human wars in my experience. The wars last longer since humans are so much harder to kill, and you can't get a quick peace deal to take a breather from the WW like you usually can with the AI.

I think the SoZ would have a meaningful impact on how desirable other teams think it is to go to war with us.

Later on, it won't probably help us in deterring a 4v1 dogpile, but for our early contacts I think it will help discourage any thoughts of a 2v1 alliance... since the WW will sink the economies of the aggressors relative to the 2 teams not participating.

That's my take anyway.
:salute:

Edit: Building the Soz also saves us from the possibility of one team going to war with us and just fighting a running border war with the primary intention of disabling our economy with WW.
 
Great, great stuff going on in this thread :thumbsup:
I'm supportive of the way this plan is unfolding. Love the Colossus and Pyramids idea. Agree with Memphus that getting confucianism is a good bonus but not necessary.

I just wanted to speak up to toss in my 2 cents as (currently non-acting) Daimyo of State that I think the Statue of Zeus is a good idea for us.

We're already at the top of every team's hit-list... getting the Pyramids and/or Colossus will NOT help that.

As 1889 points out, there is no substitute for having a big army and showing a well-defended front to any scouts.
That said - War Weariness tends to be a much bigger factor in Human-Human wars in my experience. The wars last longer since humans are so much harder to kill, and you can't get a quick peace deal to take a breather from the WW like you usually can with the AI.

I think the SoZ would have a meaningful impact on how desirable other teams think it is to go to war with us.
Later on, it won't probably help us in deterring a 4v1 dogpile, but for our early contacts I think it will help discourage any thoughts of a 2v1 alliance... since the WW will sink the economies of the aggressors relative to the 2 teams not participating.

That's my take anyway.
:salute:

Edit: Building the Soz also saves us from the possibility of one team going to war with us and just fighting a running border war with the primary intention of disabling our economy with WW.

I agree, especially with the statement I bolded.
 
Arguably, if we were to go straight for CoL, we wouldn't require writing; we could just go IW>Sailing>CoL, although that has the same risks of not gaining any military techs...and we would have a great difficulty trading...

Other than the fact that Writing is a pre-req for CoL, I agree with that ;) Did you mean Calendar, here?

Of those 3, construction is vital if we are going to go to war soon - I don't think we are, though - this is a big world with big distances between people.

CoL has a variety of advantages:

1) Maybe a religion
2) Unlimited scientists or merchants
3) Makes workshops twice as effective
4) Courthouses.
5) prereq for CS.

Calendar unlocks a resource for us and tells us where we are in the world.

My belief is taht CoL is the right thing to get, though I'm not sure we'll get it first
 
This is why we need to consider what techs we research; IW and writing can be finished by eot t75, Sailing takes another 5 turns, and we wouldn't have much more than 10 gold spare at the end (other than the 50 gold safety net). That would give us 20 turns to research whatever we wanted for trade purposes etc before we hit the point where we would be undisputed #1 (right now we have a large tech over everyone else, but Kaz and Cavs have 4 cities, so we look like #3, although our demographics say otherwise) (Collosus and Pyramids would fall on eot t101, which looks nice, and it's just the way it works out, nothing to do with me setting it up that way specifically). We would also need to either trade or research masonary in that time.


  • Aesthetics = 448, max 1 option prerequisite, real cost 374 beakers

  • Maths = 373, max 1 option prerequisite, real cost 311

  • Alphabet = 448, max 1 option prerequisite, real cost 374 beakers

  • Code of Laws = 522, max 1 option prerequisite, real cost 435 beakers

  • Calendar = 522, requires Maths, max 1 option prerequisite, real cost 435 beakers

  • Construction = 522 requires Maths, Masonary, max 1 option prerequisite, real cost 435 beakers

  • Masonary = 119, 2 optional prerequisties, real cost 85 beakers

  • Polytheism = 149, max 1 option prerequisite, real cost 125 beakers

  • Literature = 299, requires Polytheism, Aesthetics, max 250 beakers

  • Archery = 89, max 1 option prerequisite, real cost 75 beakers

  • Horseback Riding = 373, max 1 optional prerequisite, real cost 311 beakers

  • Monarchy = 448, max 2 option prerequisites, real cost = 374 beakers with 1 prerequisite, 320 beakers with 2 prerequisites.



The list doesn't take into account the requirements of writing and sailing, it assumes we have both of those techs. The real cost value is teh amount of beakers each tech will cost if we research it, taking into account prerequisite multipliers. So if we researched Maths, we would need to make 311 commerce @ 100% science with 0 libraries, and no other team that we have met knowing the tech. Libraries will increase the amount of beakers we are generating, so if we had a library in every city (we won't) we would need to make 311/1.25 = 249 commerce at 100% science.


We will be making little more than 23 beakers per turn at the start of t81, but that will increase when we get the library in JD; our GNP isn't going to explode until around t100 when JD and city 5 are really big and working loads of cottages, and the Collosus gets built. Because of this, we would only be able to self research something like 820 base beakers of techs between turn 81 and turn 100, which takes into account libraries, but doesn't take into account the bonus from knowing multiple techs (I just ran a fairly optimised sim to get the number). We need to therefore be prudent in the choice of techs to research, and more careful in the techs that we trade; we don't want to trade MC until we are a lock on the Collosus, which to me is turn 100, and we don't want to tip off other teams that we want the pyramids so they rush to build them.

If anyone wants to know how I came up with that figure, I just played through the sim until t80, researching properly, min/maxing the scince slider, then set research to machinery and researched at breakeven apart from the turns before building a library when I min/maxed science. I got to 876 beakers out of 1046 by start of t101...kinda funny really, I expected the number to be a lot lower. An average bpt of 43.8 is pretty respectable. The base beakers bumber I calculated by ddividing the amount of beakers produced research masonary and machinery by the respective prerequisite bonus (1.2 for machinery, 1.4 for masonary. Overflow between the wto the game takes into account, so isn't a problem).
 
Other than the fact that Writing is a pre-req for CoL, I agree with that ;) Did you mean Calendar, here?

Of those 3, construction is vital if we are going to go to war soon - I don't think we are, though - this is a big world with big distances between people.

CoL has a variety of advantages:

1) Maybe a religion
2) Unlimited scientists or merchants
3) Makes workshops twice as effective
4) Courthouses.
5) prereq for CS.

Calendar unlocks a resource for us and tells us where we are in the world.

My belief is taht CoL is the right thing to get, though I'm not sure we'll get it first

You can tell how enamoured I am on religion from that slip up ;)
 
I'm completely unsure of what the best tech to research is; HBR could be useful, but we would need to prioritise getting horses, so I think we can forget about that. Alphabet we know other teams are going to want so we can try to buy it off them. Monarchy is only useful to us if we fail to get the Pyramids, or when we want longbows, or if we find wines somewhere.

CoL is, well, expensive and not on a military line so is kinda risky, though possibly with a large pay off and is great trade bait (we could get alphabet or maths+polytheism/masonary for it) with maybe a religion attached, and Caste to save an anarchy later on (we aren't going to really use scientists in the first 5 cities, they are all either production or cottage cities. It's the later cities that can abuse the specialists, although JD could use it to get a GS out for an academy quickly).

Aesthetics is a weird tech; if we went for it early, we would effectively be placing ourselves in a position to get Lit and SoZ very early; we wouldn't want to trade if we really wanted the wonders, but if we didn't mind compromising our expansion and defense we could get both of the wonders. It might be best not researching this tech and hoping either no one else does, or they are willing to trade it later on. I wouldn't mind either Saturn or MS getting the GL, Kaz and to a lesser extent Cav are the two teams that we don't want getting the GL. We really don't want either getting the SoZ though.

Maths is possibly the safest tech; better chopping gives us an advantage, and it's on the path to catapults so it should be excellent trade bait; if other teams want extra beakers to make up tech trades we would have sailing, or we could say we would get masonary to make up the deal, this would hide our intent for getting pyramids, though ideally we don't want anyone research masonary, but that is unlikely to occur.


I'm not sure what is the best path; if we met no one at all by turn 80 then trade bait doesn't matter, but if we've met all of the teams then diplomacy is going to have a major impact on which techs are better than others. typical, I write that sentence and 1 minute later it's invalidated.
 
Here is another argument for going for CoL after IW/sailing/writing, and in my eyes it is a very powerful idea, if a little risky.

Research CoL, doesn;t matter if we get religion, although we would likely get it be turn 95, so there is a chance we get the religion. Adopt Caste and representation on t103.

Meanwhile, irrigate city 5, only need 2/3 irrigated grasslands and the wheat, and mine all of the hills; get it to the hapy cap asap. This shouldn't take long, maybe it would be stuck at the happy cap long enough to get us a settler, maybe not. Whatever, doesn't matter. When Caste/rep roles in, we should have been able to settle for the gold, that means that there is now a happy cap of 10 in that city, 12 if we get a forge (maybe, maybe not, depends on forests chops etc). Using the wheat, and 5 irrigated grasslands it can float between using 4 to 5 scientists@ size 10, between 5 and 6 at size 12; that's between 30 and 45 bpt from that city alone, with a library (which we should definately get) and would generate a GS in less than 20 turns; I running the numbers, I think we would end up lower on the slider, but probaby higher on beakers over all, especially if we made an academy in city 5 with the first GS adn then another academy in JD with the second.


Pros

  1. Much better teching city than if we cottaged it in the short term.

  2. Would not have to get a GS out of JD, so it could focus on cottage growth.

  3. Possibility of an (extra) settler out of city 5 for horses.

  4. Much better production city than if we cotaged it, as it grows so fast we can use the hills more.

  5. We aren't investing into any cottages, so if we need to turn it into our IW city because we have no other city sites that are suitable, we aren't losing out on the investment. If we find anotehr city site that is suitable to being the IW...then we can cottage this one later after it has grown to full size using the farms.

  6. Doesn't have to be scientists we run...if need be, we could run artists and culture bomb someone; this is alot more flexible, depending on our needs at the time.

  7. Looking forward to the future, past t103, then IF we have been able to back fill a few techs via trades, ie alphabet, maths, then we would be able to make a very quick run at getting the GL in Sheep after this, if no one else had researched Aesthetics yet; not sure if we should in that situation, but it is possible.

  8. This would jive with the Collosus as well; the collosus lets us get more commerce from the sea, which we can turn to gold by lowering the slider, and we could keep teching using the scientists to tech; we could probably afford to go all the way up to 14 cities without currency if we got the two easter ncities as cities 7 and 8 (maybe 6 and 7 are more appropriate though, if we are short of worker turns to get the jungle cut down for the gems city.)

  9. One very large downside though: We do almost crash our economy between turns 90 and 102; the lack of cottages at city 5 hurt us until we get the Collosus up. To this end, I woudl suggeest we get gold as city 6, gems as city 7 and get the gold hooked up asap, so JD can work as many cottages as possible.

Cons

  1. Requires more worker turns, for the farms, mines on all of the hills, and for the possible extra city. Probably need 3 workers down there, most likely 4; we also need 2 workers at sheep, 2 to go to gold after chopping jungle at IS, and 2 to improve JD, for a total of 10 workers; we would have to find 4 workers in pretty short order, but we could build them out of IS and CK in 5/6 turns, although it would slightly slow our expansion.

  2. If we fail to get the pyramids...yeah, not pretty. lower happy cap, less beakers; we would have to revert to a cottage city IMO, although the few farms that we would have built aren;t bad as they would grow the city much faster, so this not really a gamble on the city, which will turn out fine regardless, but a gamble on the tech.

  3. Not researching maths leads to less hammers from forest chops, CoL is not on a military beelines (well, except to CS...), don't know if anyone will want to trade for it immediately, and we don't know if we would be the first to it, rendering it useless as trade bait; although getting the pyramids would mean that we would make so many beakers that it wouldn't be a game breaking loss, just an (relatively major) annoyance.

  4. If we were to turn city 5 into a cottage city, how much commerce would we lose over the course of the game by not doing it now? I have no idea, because I don't know if we should turn it into a cottage city any more...even though I was the one who originally proposed it :( Although the quick gain in beakers would offset any potential loss, I don't know which one is better in the longrun.

  5. Would need an extra couple of workers out of IS/CK, slowing expansion, but this should be tempered buy getting a settler out of city 5 is possible, but we would also need to scout out potential city sites (Barentz?) and make another axe for garrison, slightly slowing the founding of the eastern cities.

  6. There is a large downside in that we can almost crash our economy from around turn 90 until we get the Collosus and Pyramids; city 5 when not cottaged is a slight drag on our finances, and cities 6 and 7 are substantial drags. Mitigate this we would want to settle gold asap along with 2 workers there to get the gold hooked up so JD can work a few more cottages to tide us over until we get the Collosus. We can by my calculations, just get CoL and masonary in time for the wonders.

I'll add some more thoughts after Kaz have replied to our email.
 
You may already be factoring this in, but Rep only gives a boost to the happy cap to your top 3? cities. I've seen a lot of analyses from various folks that talk about growing various cities higher thanks to Rep, but it can only be 3 cities (At a time)
 
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