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Future Strategic Blueprint, or How to Ground Enemy Bones to Dust

Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by Krill, Feb 5, 2009.

  1. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Agree 100% with Memphus, hammers win in MP. Having played lots of pitboss games, the flexability extra hammers offer you is critical when playing against humans. They can be converted to anything else, they can allow you to build infrastructure during wartime, units during peacetime.

    As i like to say, a hammer a day keeps the bastards at bay:p
     
  2. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Now that is a saying I'm going to remember...
     
  3. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    Then we should look at the possibilities of an almost pure "hammer economy". Farms/Mines/Mills/Workshops...Unconquered Sun provided a pretty good map for this type of play in one of the GOTM spoiler threads I believe.
     
  4. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    We don't need a hammer economy, we need the flexibilty that a hammer economy offers; however in our case right now, and for the next 100 turns, we don't need workshops (well, maybe a couple) or watermills. We need farms to grow, and hills mined; a couple of cottages focused in specific cities will allow us to use more production for building units or infrastructure instead of research or wealth. JD is the only one that 100% deserves it as far as we can see, we need to wait until we have scouted the map better before we can decide which cities could make good cottage cities.

    This might seem a little like a rant, but it is also an explanation. Naming an economy as a "Hammer Economy", "Food Economy", "Espionage Economy", "Specialist Economy or "Cottage Economy" is unwise. All require food. All require commerce. All require production. Unless you are playing OCC (and sometimes even then) you are going to be using improvements as they fit best into your plans, to give you the best output to achieve your aims, and ignoring any one source of commerce, gpp or production is, most of the time, going to leave you with an empire that is less efficient than if you used everything you could.

    In our case, we are capable of teching through specialists, coastal tiles and cottages, mainly the first two. So are we running an SE? Are we going to transition to a hammer economy when we get alphabet and double our research via production? Who cares, we'll do whatever fulfills our aims best, and if that's by deficit researching off gold stolen via rite of conquest, by bulbing, or by playing the tech broker (somehow), then so be it. Our aim is to be bigger than everyone else and kill at least 2 of our neighbours, will we do that by passively settling new lands or spying our chance against a weakly defended neighbour and taking them out with quick knight rush? We'll see in the future as infomation is revealed to us.
     
  5. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    OK, here are some questions, to try and pick up some activity in the forum after the recent lull in domestics planning.

    1. The current CDP plan calls on a trireme after the workboat in IS, but here's the deal: we need a boat in teh water to kill the cav wb if push comes to shove in 10 turns, so there is only 1 point for getting the trireme or galley before we need it: to threaten Cavs. Otherwise, we could build an axe instead of the trireme and use it for barb duty to the east, and later on use this axe to defend either the settlers going to the east, or the workers to power the road through the desert. This would leave us with 1 chariot to explore with (along with Stuy, Barentz and Zuur, and the boat, which in my opinions is fine now we only need to find Saturn, and we have a fairly good idea where they are), but would leave us better protected against barbs, and the rate the barbs are coming at, we probably need to get an axe anyway, because we don;t have any give in our military atm, but:

    2. the delay in getting out workers from IS means that we probably need 5 workers to get a road through to the east, and this cuts down on the amount of production we can use to defend these cities (we need minimum 2 triremes to go just past the annex to stop barb galleys and anyone else from trying to screw with us). 4 workers is enough to get the road, and then we can bring 1 or 2 back after mining the gold, as we only need 2-3 workers there to chop forests and improveboth cities, but we would have to cut out one scout.

    3. CK has an interesting case to be made for it, but the argument start off with IS: these are the units that need to be built for the eastern cities:
      • 2 settlers
      • 4 workers (plus 1 for JD)
      • minimum 4 axe/spear (1 fog buster on the road to stop barb cities popping up and stop trade routes via sea and road)
      • chariot out of CK

        This is what needs to be built in IS
      • Lighthouse
      • Workboat
      • 2 triremes

      and to get the gold hooked up by a decent time (early t90s) two of those workers have to come from IS. So IS has to build a minimum 310 hammers (13 turns), but because of the slowness of the military, that has to be built in IS as well to not delay the timing, so that pushes it up to 415 hammers (18-20 turns) leaving a window of growth in CK. CK could build an axe and a few workers and stick to size 7 and start to get a road down to the awesome city site, all it requires is 155 hammers (6 turns), and then when the workers are done at FC, another axe to defend them (1-2 turns), and an axe/spear to defend the settler (5-6 turns). With the road in place, that would let us settle the awesome city by t110 latest, t110 latest if JD does something fairly cool (see below)

      The other option is to delay that and try to grow CK to size 9 (can support with gold and clams for happy and health) so that it can hit a round 30 hpt, but the cost of growing is quite prohibative (around 200 hammer last time I calculated roughly, even if all of the tiles were improved before growth, soit would also cost in worker turns, and it can only build military which we don't need quite that much of atm).

      So, I'm kinda leaning towards just leaving CK at size 7 until we are ready to either start windmilling the hills (with enough happy and health, we will have the latter) it keeps it's production but also becomes a nice commerce cirty as well, or until it can just start churning out military when not in a rush (it can make 2 workers before hand to improve itself).

    4. JD is going to hit size 6 about 12 turns before it can grow to size 7, so we need to stop growth there, so it needs to build either 2 workers, or a settler. If we build 2 workers here we do end up going slightly over board on the workers in this area and need to get a settler out to settle the red city site fairly soon (which isn't that bad, really). The other option, the settler, OTOH, can go and settle the eastern city for the wheat below the gold city, which doesn't have to be settled asap (in fact this wouldn't delay it by much) and would allow us to focus on getting the awesome city city with the corn, banana, cow and pigs up and running asap. Having run quite a few sims looking at this, I was leaning towards 2 workers because the eastern city site was nice, Red needed some work and it was worth a few turns on both. now, looking at hte awesome city site, that city doesn't cost us an awful lot (striaght 2gpt from number of cities, another 3-4 gpt when settler), but when I settled it t103 in the sim, it would get out our third GS in 30 turns (size 11, granary, forge, lib, NE) and was making about 55 beakers per turn (almost a 100 with an academy) just from the specialists, along with health which we do need to make full use of the rep happyness (3 from pigs and corn). That city is really worth pushing for, so considering just how great it would be, I think getting a settler out of JD and bringing back a few workers after the road to the gold is finish is a good compromise between worker efficiency, growth and land grab.
     
  6. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    There is almost certainly a barb city in the east right now and we should find out where and if we want to keep it.
     
  7. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    That would favour getting an axe out earlier and trailing it over there asap (or a chariot). Chariot could get there around t87 and check it out. Axe is safer though, unless barb axes appear (although barb axes don't defend cities right? Although the chariot would just shred them) Archers probably won't appear, as neither us nor cavs are going for archery...TBH, even a barb city isn't worth keeping over there unless it's in the two spots ourlined earlier; the settlers are not that expensive to us and both city sites are just so much better than any other sites possible around there that they justify the extra expense. Any military unit over there that isn't going to die prematurely (so favouring axe over chariot because it could attack a barb city if need be) is going to solve most of our eastern barb problems as well.
     
  8. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I don't think barb axes stay in cities, no.
     
  9. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    OK, I've messed around with the sim a bit; I don;t have alot of time, and I'm mostly doing it when I'm dosed up to the eyeballs on ether fumes from teh lab, but this is what I've discerned so far:

    1. Need 2 axes to go to the barb town, they can sluaghter those SoB warriors and get woody 2 and explore.

    2. Can get a galley (IS) and chariot/axe (CK, axe means delayed galley) on it to go the the NW, sail and forget about from domestics eyes, we can afford it though.

    We can do both of these, but it will impact the date for getting the gold city up and running. I'm fooling around with ways to do it, one of which I'm going to investigate further at the weekend when term has finished, and I've handed in all of my work. Getting a lighthouse in IS means we don't need to mine one of the jungle hills, so we can save 8 worker turns there, meaning we can cut down on one worker and try to cope with just 3 workers building a road to the gold, allowing us to get out settleres sooner and shortern the amount of time until gold is hooked. We need the lh anyway, so getting it sooner saves us more than just the worker turns, it gains us around 10 hammers and 10 commerce; 3 workers over around gold is plenty, we'd only have to bring back 1-2 anyway, so building the worker later on to mine the hil before growth to size 10 isn;t bad by any means.

    We aren't going to have alot of give with barbs over to the east though, we'd have to delay the axe 3-5 turns out of IS, I think, but...eh, . .. .. .. . happens, something has to give, and growth in 4 of our cities is never what should give except in dire circumstances. We'd also lose a scout to the south of OO...OTOH, we'd have 2 axes training up to woody 2 so that should help speed us back up (total explores would be 1 galley, 1 chariot/axe, 2 woody 2 axes, 2 axes killing city, as opposed to current CDP that has 1 galley, 2 chariots, 2 woody 2 axes, wouldn't be able to take out the barb city and would require more workers to get gold up and running). We don;t have anything over in the east until the settler gets there, but looking at the numbers, we'd only have something over there for 3-4 turns before the settlers got there anyway if it was a slow mover, and a chariotcouldn't d squat if there was a city there anyway.

    PS sim will be updated saturday/sunday, ie 2-3 turns from now at latest.
     
  10. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I really think we should consider the probabilities of a city to our east that we can send the axes too and maybe capture.
     
  11. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Put simply, there isn't time; we are, ideally, going to have a city down in the east by t95 (just possible, depends on barbs). We aren't going to be able to get any axes out of IS until t84, so it takes until t94 to get to the gold city site, for example; we'll have axes over there a few turns later, but they'll also be a road heading in that direction so any other axes will get there faster (and we'd need more axes to take a city anyway). A settler out of IS needs to be built by t90 (OK, that's the part I'm having difficulty with more than anything else because of having congestion in the build queue with 2 workers and 2 axes, settler would have to be built by t88 in CK, which is...doable, but might be avoidable. Maybe).

    I think the misconception might be that speed; whatever happens, we need a road to the east for axes to kill a barb city, or for the settlers to plant the cities. Both require workers, we can get 2 out of IS to do that, and axes, also we can get 2 there. They'll discover a barb city at the same time either way, so same flexibility.

    If we were delaying a city, then a fogbuster would make sense, as it is the time it takes to get a fogbuster over there is identical to just sending the settler party over asap anyway. Conclusion is that fogbuster is irrelevant.
     
  12. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    worst case if there is a babr city we redivet the settler to the red dot city. :)

    or the moia site if it shows food resoures
     
  13. regoarrarr

    regoarrarr Chieftain

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    So are we going over land to the east - originally weren't we building a galley or 2 to send that way? Or is that not safe due to barbs / other teams potentially having triremes?
     
  14. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    It's not that good because we'd need to invest 150 hammers in galleys, and it only gets us 2 workers in the east, and if a barb city springs up in the wrong place we lose the trade network with the gold. With workers we have 2 routes so have some redundancy and only need 1 unit to fogbust the entire road, can get more units over there quickly if need be and don;t have 3 galleys floating around by turn 110 that are fairly useless (considering the position that Zurr is in now).

    Also the galley method aren't as quick at getting the gold hooked up or the other city settled.
     
  15. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    OK, just a quick update here, but we ahve a couple of choices that we need to make by turn 80.

    We basically have 3 different options for what we can do right now:

    1. Expand asap to Gold and eastern production city

    2. Turn IS into a wonder city

    3. Expand slowly and try to tech as we are (middle ground)

    There is another option that fits in with all of the above, and that is our option of the GLH.

    • Build it asap (possibly screws up the GE)

    • Build it the turn after Pyramids (always doable, we need a lighthosue in IS anyway).

    • Don't build it



    Expand Quickly

    We can't really tech that well no matter what we do until we have pyramids, so we can expand quickly now and then either rein in the expansion and try to tech after pyramids land and we have grown our cities, expanding out of our new cities, or just keep on expanding until all of our land is settled.

    This would have us building 3 workers in IS, axe, settler, workboat and lighthouse (in that order), and getting gold city settled by t95, gold hooked t96 (barb dependant). We could then built the GLH the turn after Pyramids if it is still around.


    IS the Wonder city

    Slows expansion, but we can get 1 worker out of IS after a lighthouse, then a lib and axe, and get the gold city settled t99 (there abouts). FC doesn't have to build the Collosus, but it pushes that back to t102 and GLH to t103. Quite hard to pull off, and leaves us very short of workers.


    Teching asap

    Considering we have tooled ourselves up as the production masters in this game, it's throwing away a very big advantage to now get 2 lighthouses and libs in IS and FC, and try to tech, as well as not helping out diplomatic position because we really do need to wait to find out what we should be teching next because of Saturn. It's a middle ground and it's not actually good at anything.

    -

    Copper Kettle

    CK needs to build axe and then 3 chariots (1 to go on galley, one to go protect workers for gold city and one for garrison).

    After this it is possible to go axe>worker>spear>settler, strip out a worker from FC and road down to AC/Angle the barb city. Teh settler should be able to do one of two things, either settling a blocker city (circa t95) for the corn and banana (on plains hill, 5 grass hills, 3 plains hills minimum), or resettling the barb city site (c. t100). If the barb city has any food reource that makes 4 food or more, it's probably worth keeping, because we only have 1 food resource south of CK (the banana for the gems city), so we do need to split off at least one of the food resources to another city.

    If we captured Angle and kept it (it has to grow to size 2, need to keep an eye on that) then we could have the mouth of our peninsula blocked by t100 and using CK to supply another 2-4 workers we could get both cities up and running quickly due to the surfeit of food there. We can tech out of AC, with the amount of food there it is very easy to reach size 10 and just work 5 scientists to keep tech ticking over while we either expand or make other stuff. The blocker city is OK with a granary and barracks to just pump out units if need be, size 6 it can make 14 hpt, although with a forge it can hit size 9, though only needs to be at size 8 to hit 26 hpt, leaving AC/Angle with Pigs, and plains cow minimum (plenty while growing) plus other stuff if it is in the fog.


    Orchid Oolong

    OO should finish a granary in the next 6 turns, and then could build either a forge, lib, or chariot/axe.

    Lib only makes sense if we are 100% certain that we are going to use that city to pop out a GS asap after we revolt. Not sure if we should do that, though.

    Forge is expensive, but grown to size 12 (can be there by t110) it can hit 28 productin and can churn out an awful lot of workers very quickly to chop JD or road to new city sites, and we can do with the happiness there.

    Chariot/axe also makes sense, we do need a unit to deal with barbs, and it can be out by t90?

    OO probably has to stop at size 6 by building a worker anyway (4 turns) before we can revolt to rep, so only the lib would get finished, but we do need something to build there while it is growing to max size whichever route is taken. I think the forge makes sense, but the chariot is probably more prudent, it can scout the south quickly and fogbust down there if need be.
     
  16. regoarrarr

    regoarrarr Chieftain

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    I would like to expand as quickly as we can. I'm fine with dropping the tech rate down with the idea that we'll still be making lots of raw beakers and we'll pull ourselves up with our Rep-Scis and courthouses (once we get CoL)
     
  17. General_W

    General_W Councilor & Merlot Noble

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    I'm torn between expansion and IS the Wonder city.

    Guess I'd vote for expansion.
    But I'm a better diplomat than Civ player.
    I'll defer to what Krill and Memphus think.
     
  18. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    I think the alliance shoudl disolve and play nice.

    Oh wait this the MTDG not the PBEM :eek:

    We should do this:

    1. Expand ASAP
    2. Build Collosus in FC :)culture: there coudl prove very beneficial for seeing incomming units)
    3. Try for GLH te turn after pyramids in IS. If we get it great, if we don't oh well we will still get :gold: which is effective.
     
  19. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I'm all for Memphus's second plan. Not so much for dissolving the alliance (which doesn't exist, anyway)
     
  20. Dreylin

    Dreylin Cousin Itt!

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    I agree with Memphus also.
     

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