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Future Strategic Blueprint, or How to Ground Enemy Bones to Dust

Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by Krill, Feb 5, 2009.

  1. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Ultimately, we can probably tech at a parity to the best civ in the game using any two of the Pyramids, Collosus and GLH.

    Pyramids gives us that extra 3 pop in IS, JD, FC OO and one other city, probably AC/Angle, and an extra 3 bpt from each specialist, which when we go full on tech gives us something like an extra 60 bpt, going through cheap libs, which is 75 beakers every turn (ie, this is just from rep, the basic scientists give us another 75 beakers), which then going through the tech boni, which if all three of MS, Cav and Kaz have the tech, and we have 1 optional prerequisite, is an extra 106 beakers every turn. But this is arguably the easiest wonder to get, it only costs 1 GE. It also does require any expansion to make use of; if we capture Angle and use that, then all we need to do is to grow IS, FC, OO and Angle to max size and work scientists, but if we do that then we can't expand at the same time.

    So to make full use of the pyramids asap, we need to get out as many workers, settlers and basic fogbusters as we can now. We will have CK to build stuff, but that isn't really capable of alot by itself. As it is, if we were to try to expand asap to ALL city sites on our peninsula, then we would be building workers and settlers for a fair while, so we need to find a good balance between teching and expansion later on, and the best way to tech later would seem, ironically, to expand right now to the coastal sites and grow asap, leading me on to:


    Collosus, we have 9 to 10 coastal cities that have between 7 and 10 sea tiles each, and at least 1 food res. If we accept that we can tech fairly well of just scientists, then working just food and 2 coastal tiles in each city pays for the maintence in each city at 0% tech on the slider (in sims, we vary around 20%-30%). FC and IS work between them 12 coastal tiles at max size and bring in an additional 40 base commerce compared to not working the coast (Collosus adds base 10), and basically increases our overall base commerce by between 20%-30%. This is enough to let us save gold at 0% tech and hence we can tech off the slider to a small amount. Both FC and IS can grow to size 12 with rep and gold, working all of the coast to grow, so they make us alot of commerce so long as we do grow them, and at size 12 they can also work the majority or all of the hills, and with the blocker city and Angle (and the rice near IS), we have enough health for both cities to reach that size.

    We can get the Collosus in either FC or IS. It's easier to get the Collosus in FC, we can get it sooner, and it gives us just enough time to get out some extra workers from IS that we do need to speed up the settling of gold city and then return to chops jungle in JD, which is a city that shortly will need alot of worker attention (not only does it need cottages, but we need to mine both of the hills to get the forge done). Getting it in IS does strengthen IS as a GP pump, but we may be better suited to using AC/Angle as the GP pump, as IS is just a much more powerful production city, and we are going to have to be as efficient as we possibly can.


    The GLH is just a way to strengthen the coastal cities grab, even if it only gives each new city 2 commerce per turn at the cost of 7 turns worth of production, with all of th coastal cities settled, that's still 20 commerce per turn, so that's another 2 city sites that we can afford, or another notch on the slider every few turns. The cost isn't prohibitive by any measure, and should provide at least a 3:1 return on our hammers (3 commerce for 1 hammer, minimum).

    The biggest problem with the GLH is that it might fall by t95. If this happens, so be it, we wouldn't have invested anything in it (we need the lighthouse in IS anyway), and we would be able to get out 7 turns worth of other stuff aka another settler workers and chariot/axe escort. Which teams would build it:

    Kaz are teching and probably wouldn't build it in time unless they go for it in their capital, we wouldnt see it until around t100 if they go for CS, so it would be close.

    Cav, no idea, they probably could turn Their cap into a wonder city, with Org Rel, but they'll probably wait for bureaucracy to change, and their capital isn't exactly the most powerful city in the world (hell, it's hitting at most base 20 hpt, probably close to base 15).

    MS...don't know what to think, with onyl 4 cities and 3 food res, they have much more pressing matters than trying for the GLH, but that wouldn't stop them doing something so stupid, and the same holds for Saturn.
     
  2. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    OK, new post, outlining a possible grab for religion, depending on what Cavs say to us. It's actually doable even without any other teams help, but we would have other issues that would be more important than religion.

    There are only 3 religion techs left in the game, Philosophy, Theology and Divine Right. If we want a religion, we have to get one of them, or kill Kaz...while I want to do that last one, not really feasible atm.

    Philo costs almost 1200 adjusted beakers. One team that has GS cooking will bulb that before we get there, either Kaz or Saturn by my reckoning.

    Divine Right... :lol:

    Theology is doable. Only requires Masonry, Polytheism, Monotheism, which we could get one way or the other. Theology costs 747 adjusted beakers, so takes, currently about 10 turns to research at max science.​

    We have a Great Prophet cooking in CK, and we just (quite flukily) got a religion spread there. We could build the temple and be making 5 gpp/turn, so a GP would pop out sometime before t125. We could speed this up slightly by building Stonehenge (a snip at 120 hammers...a temple cost 80), and getting a GP between t115 and t119, and this could go even faster if we managed to spread Christianity to CK for a second temple. We would need to get the GP out quickly, because when we are teching of scientists, we are going to be popping GS left right and centre, making it very hard to get a prophet out at all, so if we do want a prophet, we need to get one this way fairly soon.

    We do actually have an empty build queue in CK after the axe/worker/spear/settler is done, around t92-t93. I'd like to throw out 2 workers (5 turns total) to speed up improving Angle and the second city down there, if we capture Angle, and then we have nothing critical to build in that city at all, except to keep on expanding.

    If CK were to run 1 priest, it would be best if CK was grown to size 8 (would do that while building units (we already have too many) or buildings (temple only takes 4 turns and we need that at size 8 unless we have the gold hooked up, and that still leaves 4 turns to grow). To gain +2 food per turn, it's best to move a grass hill mine to a farm; the copper mine is worth 8 hpt after the forge due to rounding, so swapping that for 3 food is really bad.

    We can speed up Henge quite easily if we do build 2 workers before it, by chopping 2 forests, which speeds up time taken to build henge to 3 turns...and we should build the 2 workers, because we can't build henge any earlier than eot t97 otherwise we don't get the GE for the Pyramids.


    Now, I'm not saying we should do this. We shouldn't even hope to do this IMO, because the only way it makes sense to go for religion now is if Cav offer a total alliance, and they don't ask us to either fund their research through an academy while they go for CS or another important tech, which is definately a viable, and strong, option. But it is something we could do if we get the chance, because religion is going to be a hard thing to get control off, and properly utilise, although a shrine would be beneficial, and we may need to use theocracy to gain an upper hand in the future militarily.
     
  3. Strow

    Strow Chieftain

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    Krill how bad will that hurt our military builds? I saw CK as the military machine. The Empire is getting very large and we aren't making friends with everyone sooner or later they will come for us. Shrine income does sound very nice but at what cost.
     
  4. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Good question, what are the implications. We aren't sure at what time we would be attacked, but we do know that we have the highest soldiers points by a long way atm, and the highest MFG. Only time we'd likely get attacked is while at a tech disadvantage which isn't going to open up over the next 15 turns. No one has HBR so they aren't going to hit us with a stack of HA which would be my prefered method of hitting someone pre catapults at this distance. I can't really forsee a proper war before t120 myself, but lightening raids to kill Angle and a blocker city are possible. By that point CK should be building military (with 2 chops, it takes 7 turns to build temple and Henge...and it takes 8 turns to grow anyway). While the priest is running CK should be making 23 hpt at breakeven food, compared to 26 hpt at breakeven at size 7 (which is what it is doing atm), but making 1 extra gold per turn and for about 75% of the time an extra 3 beakers as well.

    One thing I did forget to mention, is that if we go for a GP next, we have to make sure we don't get a GS...which means limits on how we tech and were we tech. So while we could just get the temple and run the preist, Henge speeds up the prophet and hence speeds up the subsequent GS as well, and increases the length of time a shrine would be operational. A second priest via a second temple is quite hard to feed, which would lead to use striping out the copper mine, which reduces the production in CK by 6 hammers per turn for the length of employment. When that's compared to the cost of henge, Henge doesn't seem that expensive IMO...might even be cheaper in the short term, never mind the extra culture from the monuments and the long term gpp generated in the long term.


    The best lesson anyone can ever learn in CIV is that all military that isn't there for a diplomatic or economic is complete superfluous; unless it is killing something it's a waste of upkeep and hammers that are better spent on something else. Planning is important though; you do need to be able to see incoming attacks and stockpile troops because you can't build an army in 1 turn short of drafting and extensive whipping (which has a large penalty associated with it if you are running caste to tech with...so we do have to be vigilant)


    Building Henge won't hurt military builds really. We already have a larger military than anyone else by a good margin, and we are going to start hurting pretty bad economically, at least for a few turns until we get lighthouses down in IS and FC, and grow them after we get representation (That's where the bulk of our commerce and hence gold comes from until JD gets the palace, bureaucracy bonus and hits size 13-14 and works all cottages). The former is around 19 turns away, the latter, I could only guess.

    Militarily, we have Barentz scouting far away in the west, 1 chariot scouting the north west, 2 axes heading for Angle and Zuur wandering to the west as well.

    That leaves us with:

    1. 2 warriors (IS, FC), neither of which are vulnerable to barbs.
    2. 2 chariots, in CK and JD. CK is not vulnerable to anything really, as there will be an axe heading south gaurding 2 workers, and the JD I'll explain next. 1 extra chariot is getting built in OO for scouting the south/fogbusting/covering JD, and can be exchanged with the axe in OO for fogbusting if we want (this is useful in the east)
    3. 2 axes (JD->eastern road, OO), along with 1 axe out of CK for the workers roading to Angle/AC, 1 out of IS to guard JD so we have 1 chariot and an axe to gaurd the workers roading east.
    4. 1 Spear to be built, to guard the settler heading towards the hub to replace Angle or plant a blocking city, should be built t91 at latest (before we started anything there).
    5. 1 Galley, following the coast north to uncover trade routes to Saturn et al


    So we should have another 2 axes, spear and chariot coming online to deal with anything unexpected. Along with that, JDs borders expand on t90, and we have units fogbusting south of CK and NE of JD, and S of OO (currently the MS warrior is fogbusting that bit for us), so the only places barbs are going to spawn to screw with us is NE of IS, and W of OO, and a long way SE of JD. If we send the axe to scout out of OO to the south shortly before the chariot is built (ie 3 turns before, as nothing can attack in that amount of time) and leave the chariot to defend all of that space we'd actually be completely safe, barring unfortunate combat roles.


    That's actually one of the reasons I'm proposing this as a feasible course of action if, and only if, we get to catch up in tech. We are currently paying 4 unit cost and 1 unit supply, with 6 units outside out cultural borders. We'll shortly be making an extra 6 units (4 units already mentionned, 2 workers) excluding workboats and settlers, and peaking at an extra 13 units outside our borders. That is what criples our economy from around t95 until we get the gold and AC cities founded, so stopping building units for a short while is a very useful thing for us, especially if it leads to us gaining a shrine 20 turns down the road.

    There are other options, such as building wealth, research (wealth is better, but requires currency which we might not get in time), or more settlers for gems city, the city next to OO, possible Moai city etc, and they are better under other cicumstances.
     
  5. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    So...I was thinking about the Saturn-Kaz trade that we saw a few days ago, and what it could mean. Odds are that it doesn't affect us, but there is one sinister scenario where it could be real bad for us.

    OK, lets set out the current position:

    We need to trade for CoL off Saturn, and we only have MC to offer. Kaz have told us that they are going to get MC somewhere else. That means either from:

    • Cav, after we trade it to Cav.
    • MS, if MS research it.
    • Kaz research it themselves.
    • Saturn, who have just started researching it now.

    Kaz sent us a proposal to give us tech upfront for us researching something. What is to stop them from offering the same deal to Saturn? It is quite possible that they offered 2 bad ancient era techs and 1 classical era tech (Alpha, or IMO more likely Monarchy), for Archery (which they did recieve from Saturn), and MC.

    If this is the case (and I'm not saying it is, only that it could be), then we would be completely stuffed for trades.

    OTOH, it does suggest that either Cavs offer to us was honest, or a double bluff where they expect us to refuse the offer, and they'll get MC off Saturn anyway.

    Now, here's the only (partial) solution that I can see:

    Send Cavs a simple letter, saying that we are considering their proposal. Ask what the next step would be in improving our relations, citing possible tech trades etc. This is only to act as a delay, but keeps open relations, and gives us a possible tech trade if we decide we need it for whatever reason when we meet Saturn. Who knows, they may even turn out to be sincere... ;)

    Ignore Kaz completely.

    Find Saturn asap. If they have got a deal in place to trade MC to Kaz, explain the entire situation to them about the tech alliances, but don't expect them to break the treaty. Instead offer them MC (and alpha if need be, get it from Cavs if possible) for CoL, and let them trade it to Kaz when they said they would.


    If they do refuse, we just have to burn through Masonry, Maths and CoL and forgo Alphabet, but that's worst case scenario anyway. All this is, is a slight increase in thechances of the worst case scenario being the real scenario...
     
  6. dutchfire

    dutchfire Moderator Moderator

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    I've never played much with the Apostolic Palace, and have mostly found it an annoyance. Do you think it'll be a factor this game?
     
  7. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    I hope not. I don't think any team will win a religious victory, but there is always the posibility that other teams try to use the AP to force us to break off trades with Saturn, in which case we have to defy it. That might actualy break the game in favour of the other teams but the only strategy that works against it basically screws us economically.
     
  8. dutchfire

    dutchfire Moderator Moderator

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    Well, if we don't get the AP religion, we'll be alright, right?
     
  9. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    *Shrug* No idea.
     
  10. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    Odds of that are going down....we have 2 different religions already.

    But from what I understand, if you defy it, it only effects the city the religion is in. That said it is a heavy penalty 5 :mad: per defiance.
     
  11. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    The AP CAN totally hose you in the wrong situation....

    I would try to build it without putting strain on the rest of the empire if possible.
     
  12. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    It's not doable, without us teching straight to Theology after Currency.

    The only way to make that a workable strategy is offer to trade MC for Calendar (and taking the hit on beakers) and then teching straight to Theology with Saturn feeding us gold. To make such a detour bearable we'd probably want to get henge and a temple in CK to try for a prophet for the shrine, then build AP in CK (we'd have to revolt to a religion as well).

    Compare that to building workers and settlers, and teching Civil Service? That's making our position almost unteneable.

    The only saving grace is that if it worked it might bring in enough gold from the shrine (and hammers with the religious buildings) to make it viable longterm. We would have to be careful to not pop a GS first though, so we would have to run scientists everywhere, instead of just in OO and IS.

    We'd also have to start laying the ground work fast; we would need Henge down asap, and we'd need to be growing to size 8 in CK to work the Priest.
     
  13. IamJohn

    IamJohn (was)?

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    So in otherwards, no. ;)

    We should set up a sim though, and perhaps ask Saturn what they're opinion is if we get around to a chat.
     
  14. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    We CAN do it, it's just not easy and might not pay off. The preliminary stuff in CK hurts us though; we're stuck with 3 workers, and we HAVE to capture Angle; we can't rebuild it if need be for 15-20 turns. It's not impossible, and there are benefits; OR/Theo civivs are very useful to us, as would be the shrine gold.

    On the whole, I'm OK with that stuff, it makes sense (partially down to when we need to draft, and to get promos on caravels if we have to fight Cav on the water).

    The problem I have is finding a way to tech poly/mono and theocracy. We are not yet in a position to dominate the tech race, that requires another 15 turns to set that **** up, and we need Saturn to feed us gold to have a chance. If we can be first to Theocracy though I think we can get AP. We also need to get Calendar asap for JD, and I don't think we can get that in a trade.

    If the rest of the team want to though, we can press Saturn on the issue, and ask them if they want to do this. It shouldn't hurt to ask, because if they say no, we can't do it.
     
  15. mostly-harmless

    mostly-harmless Chieftain

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    There is no need to go after the AP. If it is built by another civ, we have to make sure to have the AP religion in enough cities (Saturn cities as well) to block any votes. The AP religion also offers some nice bonus hammers from religious buildings.

    mh
     
  16. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    So here is a very open ended question for you all.

    What the **** do we do now?

    Kill Kaz asap, making it our #1 aim and everything else be damned, or just bottle them up and chase Cav to Lib? Or do the usual thing and try to do both at once as well as expand?

    And yes, I'm figuring ways out to do just that...just a forwarning, but we might end up chasing the MoM.
     
  17. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    I like the MoM....

    Killing Kaz = expanding!

    Catching Cav on the way to Lib will be more challenging!
     
  18. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    what? choices? are we Team MS?

    We do it All.

    Krill We want 2 GA, inwhich at the end of the first we complete MoM to extend it.
    Then I want a slingshot to Liberalism. And yes I know that means no machinery. so We have to kill kaz with mounted units.
     
  19. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    I don't believe that MoM in the middle of a GA will extend it...we should test the viability of that though.
     
  20. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    It shouldnt be hard to test; I'll be able to do it tomorrow. The past two days have been horrific, working 13 hour shifts, then coming back and working on this. Quite a juxtaposition, really.
     

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