[GS] Future Update?

[acluewithout]

Why can I sell votes centuries before WC is invented?
You either keep everything sane by removing earlier vote trading or you allow WC from the inception of the game.
To not have WC until medieval because that is historical but then allow vote selling from ancient is just

I’d never thought of that. Good point.

I don’t really equate DF to Votes. DF is just diplomatic influence. In my head, the game doesn’t really say how voting at the WC works (assuming the WC represents an actual UN style General Assembly ... I sort of assume the WC is an abstraction too). When you spend DF, you’re using your diplomatic influence to get people to vote your way or push the process where you want. But I get the way the game is set up, DF can be just equated with Votes, which then doesn’t make it weird getting them before the body you can vote is has been created.

I think the issue is just that the WC is the only thing you can spend DF on. If there was something else DF did then this wouldn’t be an issue.

Random resolutions is fine but that's why we said one resolution is chosen and one is random, it partially keeps the randomness while providing an extra reason to care about diplomatic favor, because you can get to choose the other resolution if you host.

The Devs said they didn’t do chosen resolutions because it created balancing issues - basically, having chosen resolutions means you have to make every resolution roughly equal or else people will just spam one resolution all the time (I guess a bit like how people used to always pick Magnus). I think choosing resolutions also creates challenges programming the AI. So, the upshot is having any chosen resolutions is a problem.

Personally, I think the game works better with no chosen resolutions (with emergencies etc being a small element of choice), but I do get some people don’t like that.

Voting on something isn't supposed to have a risk of voting on something that you aren't voting on, that's ridiculous.

I’m not sure what “isn’t supposed to” in that sentence means. Voting on something and not getting what you voted for is a thing that literally happens.

Parliamentary and Congressional Bills and Resolutions frequently have amendments and riders tagged onto them that radically change their effect; international resolutions and treaties end up having completely different outcomes to what they were originally envisaged to have. Once you start a political process, you often can’t control precisely where it ends up. I think the A/B Mechanic represents that well.

Brexit is probably going to be an example of this. A bunch of people voted for Brexit, and it looks like there really will be one. But now we’re into the specifics of what that will look like, and it may look very different to what they wanted when they voted for Brexit initially.

The key thing ends up that you should be careful voting for stuff where you don’t have enough DF to invest to really nail the outcome you want. If the culture bomb thing comes up, and you just spend one free DF on it, well all you’re doing is handing an easy victory to someone else. Either spend your free point the other way, or pile in enough points that you actually get what you want.

 

[criZp]

I really don't know why you would compare congress in civ 6, a game where only a few people vote either for or against a certain thing, with a democratic system in england, that tries to have roughly 50 million people have a voice on all sorts of topics. Obviously the latter has to rely on imperfect solutions, in order to be able to govern efficiently. This doesn't mean that the congress in civ 6 is more realistic just because the devs intentionally made the voting system a hot mess. There is no need for resolutions to have two resolutions in one. There is no need for a voting system where votes gets moved around. But the devs added it anyway. It's not messy because it's realistic, it's messy because it's designed to be, and that's why it stinks.

 

[DWilson]

I disagree that it stinks. It's meant to be volatile because you're supposed to invest in it hard. If you sell off diplomatic favor and can't vote to win, you're subject to the will of the AI unless you buy more. At that point the game asks you to predict how the vote will go, and either try to make it go your way or try to predict well enough to get a diplomatic victory point, even if it means voting for a result you dislike.

 

[criZp]

That makes no sense because investing more favor would increase your chance in a normal, simple voting system also.

 

[Victoria]

It's not supposed to be purchasing Votes literally

Not sure you can sell reputation. Look I get that when it comes to a congress there is a lot of favour used but what happens is in no way connected to a 500 year old debt and selling reputation. It’s all a bit far fetched. Pre Congress ‘favour’ is a completely different beast to what is used in a congress. Ok I cede that it’s loose.

that tries to have roughly 50 million people have a voice on all sorts of topics.

the one time the UK decides to truly be a democracy the ‘intelligent’ people say it was stupid to give the ‘stupid’ a vote. A true democracy is a bit of a logistical insanity without considering how informed people need to be and exactly what informed means. Brexit continues to be fascinating but off topic.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Not sure you can sell reputation. Look I get that when it comes to a congress there is a lot of favour used but what happens is in no way connected to a 500 year old debt and selling reputation. It’s all a bit far fetched. Pre Congress ‘favour’ is a completely different beast to what is used in a congress. Ok I cede that it’s loose.
the one time the UK decides to truly be a democracy the ‘intelligent’ people say it was stupid to give the ‘stupid’ a vote. A true democracy is a bit of a logistical insanity without considering how informed people need to be and exactly what informed means. Brexit continues to be fascinating but off topic.

The UK isn't a true democracy though. Less than 2/3rds of eligible voters participate in the elections......& the first past the post system means that a person can get elected to a seat with far less than 50% of the vote. America's system is equally daft. Europe, Canada, most of South America & New Zealand have much better systems. Heck, even Australia's system is better than the UK's system, & that really is saying something .

EDIT: Oh, & on top of everything else, the UK has a daft upper house in which membership is gained purely from being born into the correct families.

Moderator Action: Please leave current events and politics out of the game threads. This is off topic and needs to be taken to Off Topic section of the forum. leif

 

[blackcatatonic]

As a UK poster please let's not get into discussing politics/current events on here; it's depressing enough dealing with it on the news.

In an attempt to drag this thread back on topic - this week must be last chance saloon for a patch before the New Year. Anyone still think this might be likely?

 

[Pistol]

I would bet for patch somewhere 1-10 january called something like "new year patch", and then in February 3rd exp announcment.

 

[AntSou]

In an attempt to drag this thread back on topic - this week must be last chance saloon for a patch before the New Year. Anyone still think this might be likely?

Me!

 

[RohirrimElf]

I would bet for patch somewhere 1-10 january called something like "new year patch", and then in February 3rd exp announcment.

I`ll still give next week a 10-15% chance of a patch drop. Do think it will be a of a much smaller size then the last 2 patches if firaxis has an expansion in mind for 2020.
Because of all the work on the console ports and fixing them after launch. Just my 2 cents. So my expections are low for a patch to drop in 2019 but not zero.
I will still be checking regularly at 16.00 CET thuesday till thursday just because i dont have anything better to do with my time.

 

[blackcatatonic]

I would bet for patch somewhere 1-10 january called something like "new year patch", and then in February 3rd exp announcment.

That seems likely to me. Although possible, I doubt they would announce the expansion in January as it's hard to see how much could have changed from November-December to make it worth missing the pre-Christmas sales announcement window. A Feb announcement would line up with an April/May expansion which seems like a decent time to me. And I feel they might be more like to wait until after the New Year now to introduce a patch, especially if it's a big one, in case it creates problems that they won't be able to resolve over the holidays.

I`ll still give next week a 10-15% chance of a patch drop. Do think it will be a of a much smaller size then the last 2 patches if firaxis has an expansion in mind for 2020.
Because of all the work on the console ports and fixing them after launch. Just my 2 cents. So my expections are low for a patch to drop in 2019 but not zero.
I will still be checking regularly at 16.00 CET thuesday till thursday just because i dont have anything better to do with my time.

I have plenty better to be doing with my time but that won't stop me checking anyway

 

[AntSou]

If there's no patch next week, cheer up, you know what they say. Some things in life are bad, they can really make you mad. Other things just make you swear and curse. When you're chewing on life's gristle, don't grumble, buy Disco Elysium, and this'll help things turn out for the best.

Always look on the bright side of life.

 

[The googles do nothing]

What's the list of things that can be realistically expected in a patch? Pantheon fix, some great Admiral thing, anything else?

 

[oSiyeza]

The Devs said they didn’t do chosen resolutions because it created balancing issues - basically, having chosen resolutions means you have to make every resolution roughly equal or else people will just spam one resolution all the time (I guess a bit like how people used to always pick Magnus). I think choosing resolutions also creates challenges programming the AI. So, the upshot is having any chosen resolutions is a problem.

Lets be honest here, this is just a way of saying we did not want to put much effort on this. So all resolutions ended like straight minor bonus modifications so pretty much the AI could vote ramdomly and no matter at all.

This is how you make exciting WC resolutions, make them alter the rules of the game in a way that is situational, and means something for gameplay and for roleplay. But make them affect all players so they are not a straightforward bonus. Also most resolutions should have two outcomes in opposite directions, so there is always a favored alternative. In most cases this would mean just vote no. Effects of these resolutions would remain in some cases till the resolution is revoked, so the game can actually be changed by player, step by sep. For example.

- Open / use diplomacy rules for all borders in the seas.
- Open / use diplomacy rules for all borders for air units
- Ban / Unban nukes.
- Ban / Unban an energy source.
- Give / Stop giving bonus strategic resources to civs that lack them.
- Make all discovered spies return home / be executed on sight.
- Open / use diplomacy rules in all borders for trade
- Open / close / use diplomacy rules in all borders for religious units.
- Give / Stop giving science bonus or techs to the civs that are behind.
- Dramatic temporal increase / decrease of a specific type of grievances.
- Temporarily Allow archeology in all land / make foreign archeology on foreign land an act of war.
- Activate new specific casus belly / deactivate some of the current ones.
- Ban / Unban razing cities on war times.
- Ban / Unban atack trade routes or civilian units on war times.
- Start / Stop a World War.
- Ban / Unban pillage in war times.
- Ban / Unban chopping forest or rainforests
- Make religious war an act of war
- Ban / Unban / Favor research on a specific natural resource (increses or decreases the efectivness of mountain or reefs science bonus)
- Ban / Unabn / Pursue - transgenic food (increase or reduce crop output)
- Ban / Unban whale fishing.
- Ban / Unban outshore oil extraction.
- Ban / Unban / Favor religious interchange in trade and turism.
- Disable / Enable grievances on third party wars.
- Disable / Enable grievances on actions against city states.
- Ban unban chemical or biological warfare (Not a thing yet i know).
- Replace aid petitions by automatically granting gold per turn to civs affected by disasters / Disable automatic aid.
- Resolutions for disease control (quarantine trade in civs affected by a plage, (Also not a thing yet, i know).

Garnted, these resolutions should be optionalbin multiplayer games, maybe some of them not be used at all. Also some balance has to be considered, some resolutions cannot be repassed in certain time and to make it work properly maybe the AI should just consider random resolutions (and then vote in the direction that favors them) for simplicity and to see diferent effects on the game.

Still, how awesome would this be? Consider I only have dedicated five minutes to think these on the go. But probably with some effort, you could use this system to create awesome gameplay.

What do you think?

 

[The googles do nothing]

Garnted, these resolutions should be optionalbin multiplayer games, maybe some of them not be used at all. Also some balance has to be considered, some resolutions cannot be repassed in certain time and to make it work properly maybe the AI should just consider random resolutions (and then vote in the direction that favors them) for simplicity and to see diferent effects on the game.

I would rather have these as a community mod then in the official game for the reasons you outlined. above. Civ6 has a design philosophy of 'if you don't like it you can ignore it' which while might be frustrating if you want a piece like the WC to play a bigger role..

For example of I mod that I might like but others would not:

Ban / Unban chopping forest or rainforests

Let's say when 25% of the rainforests have been chopped an emergency is call to vote to ban. You could vote to have a chop put you at war, give grievances, revoke trade routes, open borders and alliances. (or the vote could fail).

 

[AntSou]

I think Diplomatic Victory should be kept mostly as it is. Some changes I'd like to see:

- Winning emergencies gives 3 Diplo Points (if too much, then increase necessary amount from 20 to maybe 25);

- Resolutions should have non-enforceable negative outcomes (which means, many would have to be altered). Non-enforceable resolutions are things like Spies can't conduct [x] mission. Breaking these resolutions makes you lose diplomatic points and gives negative opinion modifier with every Civ which voted in favour. These would still appear on a single Positive/Negative card, but positive outcomes like Spies conduct missions faster would just work as they do currently;

- Spy missions which cause the target to lose Diplo Points;

- Once a player reaches the minimum required amount of diplomatic points to win the game, the Elect World Leader resolution becomes available. It's a straightforward yes/no resolution. If you win, you win the game, if not,
you don't lose any points. You can keep on accumulating diplo points. The Elect World Leader resolution only ever applies to the player which has the most total diplomatic points, even if more than one Civ is already above the total of 20 (or 25).

 

[iammaxhailme]

The thing I want to see most with regards to diplomatic victory is better scaling to map size. Comparing getting DV on the same difficulty setting, it's incredibly hard to do it on a huge map becuase that's just so many people mobbing votes against you. But it's incredibly easy on small and tiny maps becuase the AI doesn't seem to try very hard to maintain suzerainity of lots of CSs. I've gotten DV on Diety on a tiny (4 size) map without doing anything too cheesy with the game settings and I can't even get one on Emperor on a huge map (12 civs) unless I basically turn it into a domination victory that I stop when there's only one or two civs left

 

[CPWimmer]

I would bet for patch somewhere 1-10 january called something like "new year patch", and then in February 3rd exp announcment.

Looking at the historic release pattern for Civ 6, I would now predict that we won't get a patch until roughly the 2nd week of February. They have never released in January (nor in November/December excluding the first 2 months of the product's life-cycle).

In general, January software releases are hard due to the pre-work falling in the holiday season when many people are on vacation.

I am a bit fuzzier about an XP 3 announcement. I fully expected one in mid-late November as they did for the first 2 XP's. I still feel strongly that there will be an XP 3, but I am somewhat uncertain about the announcement date. A Feb. announcement (to go along with the patch release) does seem likely at this point.

 

[mmenphis]

I bet the patch will be released next week .

 

[acluewithout]

I really don't know why you would compare congress in civ 6, a game where only a few people vote either for or against a certain thing, with a democratic system in england, that tries to have roughly 50 million people have a voice on all sorts of topics. Obviously the latter has to rely on imperfect solutions, in order to be able to govern efficiently. This doesn't mean that the congress in civ 6 is more realistic just because the devs intentionally made the voting system a hot mess. There is no need for resolutions to have two resolutions in one. There is no need for a voting system where votes gets moved around. But the devs added it anyway. It's not messy because it's realistic, it's messy because it's designed to be, and that's why it stinks.

Lets be honest here, this is just a way of saying we did not want to put much effort on this. So all resolutions ended like straight minor bonus modifications so pretty much the AI could vote ramdomly and no matter at all.

Sigh. I’m somewhat regretting getting into this discussion at all.

Look. I don’t know if the A/B voting is particularly realistic, but a straight vote A isn’t either. Usually a “vote” in the UN General Assembly (eg for a Resolution), or in a Committee, or in a Parliament / Congress, is usually made up of multiple rounds of amendments and votes. As consequence of that is that you can propose X, everyone votes to proceed with X, but after subsequent rounds of voting you end up with something that actually says outcome Y. Indeed, that is a reason sometimes countries, people etc hold off even putting forward certain resolutions etc because they’re not confident they can control the process after the initial vote.

I don’t know if FXS were trying to capture that with the WC or not. But regardless, the current Mechanic actually allows for more interesting decisions than a straight Vote A. Instead of just voting for what you want, you need to more carefully weigh the risk / reward of voting for things, and consider how much DF resource you commit. As I said, if you want to benefit from the district / culture bomb resolution, you can’t just vote for it; you have to consider the risk that if you vote for it and don’t commit enough DF then someone else who commits more DF might actually get the benefit.

I also think the random resolutions are fundamentally more tactical than choosing resolutions. If you could choose resolutions, you’d end up just picking the same things again and again. There would always be an “optimal” resolution to propose. We can already see that with Dedications, where there is nearly always an “optimal” dedication to pick in most situations (usually Monumentality early game). Random resolutions forces you to be more opportunistic and therefore results in more tactical thinking.

I think it’s unfair to say FXS couldn’t be bothered having different mechanics etc. First, because I think the mechanics we got are really good and much deeper than Civ 5 (although I get plenty of people disagree). But second, even if one considered the mechanics simplified or whatever, you have to recognise FXS don’t have infinite resources and so have to make decisions about where they spend those resources. It sounds like they decided that a “player controlled resolution” mechanism wasn’t the best use of resources, perhaps partly because of how complicated it would be to program, but also perhaps because for all that effort a “random resolution” system seemed a better Mechanic to them.

I’m obviously in the camp that thinks the WC is a good Mechanic. So, if you disagree, that’s fine. Personally, I think the WC is just missing a bit of flavour - eg there should be a Wonder or Event that triggers it, it should upgrade into the UN via another Wonder or Event, some of the Resolutions need more work, and I’d like to see DF have more uses outside the WC.

Looking at the historic release pattern for Civ 6, I would now predict that we won't get a patch until roughly the 2nd week of February. They have never released in January (nor in November/December excluding the first 2 months of the product's life-cycle).

In general, January software releases are hard due to the pre-work falling in the holiday season when many people are on vacation.

I am a bit fuzzier about an XP 3 announcement. I fully expected one in mid-late November as they did for the first 2 XP's. I still feel strongly that there will be an XP 3, but I am somewhat uncertain about the announcement date. A Feb. announcement (to go along with the patch release) does seem likely at this point.

Yeah. I think you might be right.

Feels like Q4 2019 is all about Consoles, ie rolling out Console Ports and then patching them as needed (there’s been quite a few patches).

Once everyone is playing Civ on everything (PC, Mac, Console, Ipad), you then focus on Patches, a Third Expansion and DLC for all platforms in Q1 and 2 2020.

Other than I wish FXS would give us some clarity on timing, I’m okay with so,etching like that particularly if it means 3XP is more full of content and is better polished (something as chunky as GS would be awesome), and more long term support overall.

(Hmm. Actually, I am a little disappointed not getting any announcements this year. I was looking forward to having a third expansion tease to mull over during the holidays. But big picture, I guess I’m happy to wait if that means what we get is better overall.)