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[GS] Future Update?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Aussie_Lurker, Sep 10, 2019.

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  1. sdtum21

    sdtum21 Chieftain

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    I've given up on expecting anything imminent at this point. I stick by my conviction that XP3 is definitely happening as per last year's leak, but I'm just gonna' let it catch me by surprise now. I have Pokémon Sword and Shovel Knight to keep me company through Christmas at least, :D
     
  2. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    If you like the current WC, fine. But, saying is a deep system is borderline self-deception.

    And no, I know FXS, does not have infinite resources. However I expect, if I pay 30 dollars for an expansion on top of a 60 dollars game, on top of another 40 dollars of another expansion and DLCs. That they deliver content that is not half assed.

    Honestly, making the WC resolutions a system that allows you to modify a meaningless variable a 10% or modify another meaningles variable another 10% instead. Is a bit... to say it gently, pointless.

    On a game that uses thousands or variables, most of them barely significant, and hundreds os modifiers on top. Adding just a another layer, that modifies the already modified variables a bit. But this time, just the less important ones and the smaller modifications possible. Is everything but good content.

    Why?

    First, cause there is no meaningful decissions involved. Half the players on this forum straight ahead ignore the system for a reason. Honestly I like, the idea, and I tried to use it... and could not see a meaningful difference in any of my games as a result of any resolution. So I ended, despite myself totally ignoring the system. And as result, I still have not seen any difference. Ignoring the WC resolutions or trying to use them properly, has no effect on the game.

    Second, you cannot use the system for roleplaying either. Cause not only there is no gameplay changes involved. There is also no management, narrative elements, or diplomatic elements the player can get involved into. Making a type of unit slightly cheaper or a luxury slighly more valuable is not a decission one can get self involved into.

    Last, I actually think FXS dedicated zero resources for the WC, well maybe a guy worked in it for a month... But besides the WC interface, no extra music, voice, script, animations or models have been added for the WC. I give them this, the AI, uses the system yes. But is impossible to know if it uses the system well or bad, cause it has been designed to not matter at all. I will give a guess of how many lines of AI behavior where added or changed to account for the result of a WC resolution. I would bet money on saying this number is zero. That is how meaningless the system is.

    Improving this may require resources alright, but we are paying the product, and is not cheap. So that is not an excuse for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
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  3. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    I would also like WC resolutions have more weight, and for some there would be just one choice, like no boosting a unit class but just an option to decrease unit class stats. Could bring more strategy to it.
     
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  4. Jeppetto

    Jeppetto King

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    Pokémon Shovel Knight? They released the third version already? I totally missed that.
     
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  5. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I'm not a huge fan of arguing about stuff on internet forums.

    The WC mechanics do have quite a bit of depth and nuance. I've explained why, and indeed others have explained it better in other posts. But you clearly disagree, and then so be it. Beyond that, I think the assertion of "self-deception" is a bit much, but honestly, whatever. You do you.

    Really, the only reason for responding at all was that I just wanted to make two short points. First, while I think the underlying mechanics are quite solid, I agree some of the WC resolutions are a bit tepid / underpowered, and that there are some roleplaying elements missing, e.g. having the WC triggered by something rather than just beginning in the Medieval Era, and having it upgrade to the UN etc. But I don't see either as fundamental problems - the first is just down to balancing, and the second probably is for a third expansion etc.

    Second, I don't think the claim that the system is "half-assed" or FXS spent no resources on it is fair. From their Reddit posts, it's pretty clear FXS actually spent quite a lot of time on this. Indeed, it looks like they tried to get the WC out for RnF but couldn't get there because of the amount of work involved. To be clear, if you don't like the mechanics, that's totally fine by me. But I just don't think you need to put the boot in when it comes to the people working on the game.
     
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  6. RohirrimElf

    RohirrimElf Emperor

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    For anyone taking a break from civ 6 till next content update. And not knowing what to do around the holidays. Transport fever 2 is a lot of fun. It has for the moment stopped my civ campaign streak. It is like transport deluxe from 20 years ago with an visual update. watching trains and financial spreadsheets is fun for me. The economy can be harsh on you when you just start playing the game.
     
  7. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    I just want to say explicitly something. When I said Fxs did something wrong. I never talk about the programers, designers, artist or AI engineers making the game.

    These people are like every human and make mistakes. Of course, but that is why there is QA, patches and a whole engineering proces behind a software company.

    The problem is that the people in charge, usually executives, directors, group managers, project managers and so on, you know, the ones that actually make money, do not put enough resources in key aspects of the game. Because it is more profitable to not do so.

    Trust me i know what im talking about. I worked for a medium sized I+D company, researching in computer science projects funded with external private and public money. Im talking of 2 year proyects with 1/2 to 10 million dollars per project. Well, often I was the main and only researcher of up to 5 projects at a time. And my salary was below 40,000 a year, which for a senior PhD in computer science is not quite much. Make the numbers. And multiply per 300 researchers, and put not paid overtime into the mix... This is what in the worst case a software company looks like now.

    Of course most companies are not that bad. But when I said Fxs half assed the WC, im saying they put one guy and gave him three months to do it (probably not full time). And the whole enterprise was less than 10 grand in development costs for the WC.

    I will bet anything on the claim that they spent more man hours promoting the expansion and monitoring social networks, than actually developping the WC system.

    We tried to get it out for the previous expansion means usually: "we told the guy to do it in one month, he said he couldnt do it that fast without help, we crunched him, he still couldn't. So he eventually did it in three months, he does no longuer work here, stress related problems, but look we now give you this awesome carefully designed WC" (This in an exageration, and hope it is not what really happened, but the reality of the industry tells me, this is how actually happens most of the time).

    Why I know that?

    Because I worked in software companies for a while, and it is obvious to me that the WC is a completely isolated system with no art required and no conflicts with the rest of the game. The only reason to design the system like this is so it can be developed by one single person very fast, without delaying or interferring in any game system. And that is why in the end resulted in a totally inconsequential mechanic.

    I know some people like the system. That is ok, but this is not a complex, deep or meaningful system. It is objectively not so, because it has been designed to not be that. It is indeed the most shallow possible implementation of the WC I can think of.

    If you disagree try to think in any system that changes less any aspect of the game, that requires less AI changes, or that requires less lines of code, and feel free to share.

    What i mean is that there is no resolution im aware of that requires any visual change in the game (despite change of displayed values), that requires any change in tactics for the AI or the player, that has to be accounted in any diplomatic screen, or that just adds any line of written or spoken text. In other words, is just a bad cheap half assed system. And even if we like the game and FXS, we should demmand more than the less possible effort.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
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  8. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Well, when medieval is imminent I will certainly hold some voting power back just in case I can get 50% on my science buildings because the outcome of that it certainly noticeable.

    However, like all mechanics we need to look at the system, not an isolated cog and so the perfect example is +5 for melee troops, it does not sound like a lot but combat values stack and increase in power as they stack. The difference between 0 and +5 is 6 HP or 12 if melee based rather than ranged. But the difference between 12 & 17 is 11 which becomes quite noticeable in a melee. And then we have the religious combat difference which is significantly different.

    Tell me the negative loyalty means nothing as one of the twin eleanors?

    The thing is the resolutions are spread so only a few affect any particular nation. WC is not supposed to be a game changer but can make a noticeable difference for individual resolutions in specific circumstances. One could even say a congress never gets more than this value anyway.

    I work for a very large multinational software company and can say I would rather have people on board designing something which they had seen in use before. These guys have seen WC in action in previous iterations and know very well what people like and do not like. It was game changing in V and they made a decision not to make it so this time. Not to everyones taste but I for one do not believe the resolutions are useless, they are for different scenarios and do make a difference, just not an OP one. The A/B vote is quite a different mechanic and I can understand peoples distaste for it but I like it because it has shocked me when I have been complacent and I like the fact it is different from a regular boring vote.
     
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  9. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    Well, Im a bit too effusive. When I say useless i mean inconsequential.

    Of course when you add a value to a number, if you go high enough the change will be significant. The thing is most if not all the resolutions do this.

    You can add any modifiers to any value in the game and do it relevant if you go high enough. So they can affect your game... in a way. I mean if you add the change a resolution does as a random effect, or as a policy, or as a wonder effect, or as a leader hability, or as a governor bonus, or as an age outcome, or as a city state bonus, or as a great person hability, or as a dedication, or as a pantheon bonus, ... would have exactly the same effect, and would totally fit the game design in the same way.

    The point is: Does the WC as a separated system add something to the game, or affects diplomacy at all since you know is the major diplomactic feature of the expansion?... And well the answer is no.

    We have a virtual abstract currency that we can spend to give a numerical bonus to a stat. This is what the whole WC is... And im not even saying it cant be fun. Im saying is not deep, and is cheap as cheap can be. Whatever the reasons behind this design are, this is the cheapest choice.

    And I don't like it. Cause im tired of layers and layers of +1 modifiers, and layers and layers of +1% chance, and calling those modifiers deep, cause you can stack different modifiers to the same stat... sometimes. This is a personal choice of course. Buy like it or not, the WC is a very shallow game system surrounded by tons of game systems that to exactly the same, and in most cases better. And it starts to feel to me, that no matter the name too many game mechanics are the same one with a different name. A stat modifier with a different interface to apply it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
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  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It can take them 20 years to decide a pencil is the best thing to write with in space and it is cheap but does it make it wrong and you cannot say the method they got there was cheap, they were using the game architects who are not cheap to design this and they have experience in it.

    The outcome may feel cheap but it is a large assumption to say they spent little time on it.
    is it? or is it more of a victory condition, a plaster over the disaster of emergencies and placating the crowds who were screaming for it.
    I would have say grievances is the major diplomatic feature because it is part of the diplomacy mechanic while WC is not, WC is an outcome of diplomacy, envoys and trade, not an input.
     
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  11. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    Sorry to interject, but the story that's being alluded to here (USA spent millions/billions to develop a pen that works in space vs USSR which just used pencils) is false. Both USA and USSR astronauts used pencils, but pencil lead can break off and in a zero-gravity environment this detritus floats and becomes a hazard. Following the Apollo 1 disaster, there was a push to avoid inflammable objects like pencils as well.

    The "Space Pen" was privately developed by the Fisher Pen Co. and pitched to NASA. NASA bought 400 pens from them at a modest price ($2.95 USD each) because the pens were a more reliable, safer option than pencils. Even the USSR adopted them by the 80s!
     
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  12. Wielki Hegemon

    Wielki Hegemon Emperor

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    Fake News in Civilization VI
    Explain yourself Sean Bean :nono:
    :D
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Yep but the greatness of this story is the truth it rings with.
     
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  14. Jkchart

    Jkchart Emperor

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    I'm sure this will be a bit controversial but since the WC and Diplo Victory is always up for debate in this forum, I think you should lose Diplomatic Victory points after WC shows up for destroying Civs. You shouldn't be able to destroy all the civs except one heavily maimed one and then force a DV through. It's counterintuitive to what it SHOULD be.
     
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  15. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Losing Diplo Points for capturing enemy capitals sounds like a pretty reasonable and straightforward solution.

    Edit: If there's to be any patch announcement this week, at what time of day should I expect it to happen?
     
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  16. Jkchart

    Jkchart Emperor

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    I thought so too. Either capital capture or destruction. It would definitely force you to actually play the diplo game rather than kill everyone to eliminate WC opposition.
     
  17. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    Tuesday or Thursday are when patches typically come but EaglePursuit said Thursday is more likely this week.
     
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  18. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    If we don't see an announcement by 1pm EST Tuesday, then I wouldn't expect to see a patch before January.
     
  19. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    FXS seems to have deliberately de-powered various mechanics as they've reworked and brought them across from Civ V to Civ VI as part of adjusting the game's balance. World Congress Resolutions are just one example of this.

    I think Social Policies are another example of this - as I've mentioned before, I think Civ V's Social Policies basically got reworked into Governor Promotions, which are fundamentally less powerful because they are City Wide instead of Empire Wide. Another example is Specialists, who have been made much less powerful as well.

    I'm sure there are other examples too. Not saying it's a bad thing, or a good thing. It's just "a thing".

    I obvious don't know, but I'd always assumed Emergencies were intended to be part of the WC in RnF, but when they couldn't get the WC to work for RnF, they just stripped it down to just Emergencies. Either that, or the RnF Emergencies were sort of a first cut of a mechanic they intended to put into GS WC. But, of course, I'm just guessing.

    I remember before GS coming out feeling like I'd prefer if they didn't put the World Congress in the game. It's such a reductive concept, that really doesn't do justice to how international politics has worked through history or in the modern world. But now we have it in the game... well, yeah. I'm still not super excited about it, actually. But, you know, I think it works fine, I think I'd rather have it than not now, and I think it gets an unreasonably bad rap.

    Basically: People wanted it, now we have it, and it works fine.

    There is a limit to how excited I can be about a Patch at this point. Although, that said, I guess the last patch was pretty baller.
     
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  20. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Eh, social policies are the cards. They're earned and basically function the same way. I think the changeability is a direct result of people getting upset because you couldn't change them in V.

    Gov promotions can't be undone but IMO that's where it ends as far as similarity to the Social Policies. I think the Govs were seen more as a tool for city specialization (National Wonders). The incentives to move them around every five turns kind of undermines that though.
     
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