FXS need to rework RnF. Here’s how.

[acluewithout]

GS promises to fill in long standing gaps in Civ VI as compared to Civ V and IV (specifically the World Congress and Natual Disasters) and indeed substantially improve on those previous mechanics, to rework and rebalance a lot of existing mechanics and Civs (loving the changes to IZs and Resources) and introduces great new original content.

I really hope we get a third expansion. There are still some content from prior games I’d love to see updated and brought across to Civ VI – ideologies in particular, including your ideology and tourism effecting loyalty.

But I also hope a third expansion or further dlc can expand on Rise and Falls’ mechanics a little. There was great stuff in RnF, and mechanically it’s very solid (particularly after GS’s tweaks to Governors etc). But these great mechanics are just not developed enough – and that’s a huge pity. There’s great stuff in RnF that just hasn’t been able to shine.

This is my list of things from RnF I’d like updated and reworked. I’ve tried to focus on relatively small changes, not sweeping game breaking changes. Because, really, it’s just a bit of love that RnF is missing.

------------------------ My tweaks to RnF ------------------------

• Eras. Re-work Eras as follows: players choose between 5 dedications each era, not 4, with your current Government determining the fifth Dedication; Dark Age and Golden Age Dedications both provide gameplay bonuses (instead of just Golden Age Dedications); Dark Age and Golden Age Dedication both also have negatives (so, Players in a Dark Age have to take some negative, and Golden Age Civ’s also face challenges); Dark Ages and Golden Ages both have unique Wild Cards but neither set of cards have any negatives (i.e. Dark Age cards don’t have negatives, instead the negatives come via the Dedication).

• Government Plaza. Keep the Government Plaza as is and keep the Tier 1 GP Buildings. But change the Tier 2 and 3 buildings as follows: the Tier 2 building become a Parliament and the Tier 3 building become a Supreme Court; the Parliament and Supreme Court both unlock Legacy Cards and have some other bonuses (maybe Policy Card Slots), and have unique names for some Civs (e.g. Congress for America); the previous Tier 2 and 3 buildings instead become separate districts called ‘National Wonder’s’; these National Wonders can be built by any city (not just City with Government Plaza), but must be built adjacent to the Government Plaza and or another National Wonder, can only be built after you’ve built your Parliament (for the “Tier 2” NWs) and or Supreme Court (for the ‘Tier 3” NWs), and have the same mutual exclusion rules vis-à-vis other Tier 2 / 3 NWs; National Wonders provide the same bonus as per original building (except for unlocking Legacy Cards), but these unique district also provides +1 adjacency like the GP.

• Envoys: Allow players to place envoys with both City States or other Civs. Envoys placed with City States work exactly the same as they do now. Envoys with other Civs give you diplomatic visibility vis-à-vis the targeted Civ (replacing Trade Delegations etc) and improve the effectiveness of your spies against the targeted Civ or any Civs the target Civ is allied with. Then have new diplomatic policy cards which have effects based on the number of envoys you have with each Civ (e.g. providing culture or science per envoy if a target Civ is ahead of you; or increasing your loyalty pressure against them; or reducing pressure against you; or causing Grievances to decay faster).

• Governors and Governor Titles: Rework Governors as follows: Amani is no longer a unique governor; you can now spend Governor Titles either on the (remaining) Governors (who all remain unchanged) or to purchase or level up “Ambassadors”; each ambassador basically works the same as Amani and has the same promotion tree as Amani, but Ambassadors cannot be placed in your own cities only City States or other Civs – and, of course, you can have multiple Ambassadors whereas before you could only have one Amani.

• Loyalty: Conquered cities have negative loyalty for x turns after being conquered, which degrades at 1 point per y turns after you peace-out. You can place spies in the Cities to make the negative loyalty penalty decay faster. Loyalty also drops for x turns, decaying at 1 point per y turns, whenever you change government – penalty is halved when moving to a higher tier government rather than moving to a Government of the same or lower tier.

• Spies. Spies also get a bonus to running ferment unrest in a conquered city and or in colonial cities and or cities with a Campus. Spies can’t cause barbarians / rebels to spawn in Neighbourhoods anymore.

------------------------ Why these tweaks? ------------------------

The above tweaks would achieve the following:

• Getting Dark Ages and Golden Ages would both be high risk strategies, as both Dark Ages and Golden Ages would require you take some negative via the Dedication, but offset by the bonuses provided by those Dedication and access to Dark Age and Golden Age Wild Cards.
  
  
• Allowing you to spend Governor Titles on “Ambassadors” and spend Envoys on Other Civs would allow more flexibility. The changes to Governors would also make them more interesting (because you wouldn’t have to take Governors every single game, but could instead invest in Ambassadors), and placing Envoys with other Civs would be an easy way to make spies more interesting and allow more diplomacy.
  
  
• The changes to the Government Plaza would just make that district more interesting, and given players more feeling of building Political Institutions (rather than just unlocking random bonuses). Having the existing Tier 2 and 3 GP buildings be separate districts would also mean decisions around district placement and more competition for tiles around the GP.
  
  
• The changes to loyalty and spies would just make that part of the game more interesting, and make loyalty a more significant consideration. The changes to loyalty for conquered cities would also be a flavourful nerf to conquest.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Funny that you should mention Ages-I was just discussing some relatively minor changes they could make here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/dark-age-dedications-golden-age-policies.641832/

I'd also have more dynamic thresholds, based on number of cities in your empire, total amounts of Amenities & positive/negative events that impact your empire. Smaller & happier empires will find it easier to get to a Golden Age than a Large & Unhappy one-though the former might miss out on that Golden Age if a Volcano happens to severely damages one of their biggest cities.

I have also said elsewhere that we should be able to convert a Spy into an Special kind of Envoy-one which can be placed in City States in a similar fashion to Amani, but which can also be placed into a foreign Capital (if you have a Delegation/Embassy there) to allow the reduction in Grievances against you and/or increase Diplomatic Favour-& to boost the value of alliances.

The other stuff you mention I'm much more "meh" about .

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I've said it before, but I would also like much more government choice when I get Code of Laws-even if it is just a choice between Chiefdom & Tribal Collective-though maybe a 3rd choice of Horde (as per JFD's Rule with Faith) or a Shamanist Government would be good too.

I'd also like to see Great Musicians & Artists be a thing earlier in the game-with 1 or 2 extra civics in the Classical & Medieval Era, extra buildings for the housing of Great Works of Music & Art & much earlier Wild Cards for both types of Great People.

I would also like to see Cultural Great People gain an alternative ability-like a Great Writer could be used as a "Loyalty Bomb" (Political Treatise a la Civ5), a Great Artist could act as a Culture Bomb (to claim free tiles for the city it was used in) & to create a Musical Group (like a Rock Band, only earlier).

 

[acluewithout]

Thanks for the comments.

Funny that you should mention Ages-I was just discussing some relatively minor changes they could make here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/dark-age-dedications-golden-age-policies.641832/

I'd also have more dynamic thresholds, based on number of cities in your empire, total amounts of Amenities & positive/negative events that impact your empire. Smaller & happier empires will find it easier to get to a Golden Age than a Large & Unhappy one-though the former might miss out on that Golden Age if a Volcano happens to severely damages one of their biggest cities.

I have also said elsewhere that we should be able to convert a Spy into an Special kind of Envoy-one which can be placed in City States in a similar fashion to Amani, but which can also be placed into a foreign Capital (if you have a Delegation/Embassy there) to allow the reduction in Grievances against you and/or increase Diplomatic Favour-& to boost the value of alliances.

The other stuff you mention I'm much more "meh" about .

Just read your post on dedications. Similar ideas.

I think where FXS went a bit wrong was trying to make Dark Ages “bad... but not too bad”.

Dark ages being bad is a bit silly. For starters, the real dark ages just weren’t that “dark”. Lots of important advancements happened during that period and quality of life was okay. Dark Ages is just a name historians gave that period which stuck.

But more importantly, having a “bad thing” you avoid is too reductive for a game like Civ. Good players will always be able to avoid “bad things”, so they just end up not really experiencing the Mechanic at all.

Dark Ages should be something you want to have, that you actively pursue, and which creates its own risk reward. Making the dedications have a game effect, like golden ages do, gets you part way there. And then making those dedications negatives forces the player to take on more risk reward, as does making Golden Ages also have a negative (so, it’s obvious you’re choosing between multiple choices all with risks and rewards). Having both Dark Age and Golden Age Cards, neither having negatives, is just then more incentive to take the risk of a Dark Age or Golden Age.

The other changes I suggested are just intended to make some mechanics more integrated and give players more flexibility. Really, I’d love for Govenors to be totally reworked - I hate having to pick them every game. But I think what I’m suggesting would make them more flexible, even avoidable, without requiring a total rework which probably just isn’t practical anyway.

Either way. I hope we get a Third Expansion. And if we do, I hope it revisits RnF, because there is some great stuff there that’s just begging for a bit more development.

 

[acluewithout]

I've said it before, but I would also like much more government choice when I get Code of Laws-even if it is just a choice between Chiefdom & Tribal Collective-though maybe a 3rd choice of Horde (as per JFD's Rule with Faith) or a Shamanist Government would be good too.

I'd also like to see Great Musicians & Artists be a thing earlier in the game-with 1 or 2 extra civics in the Classical & Medieval Era, extra buildings for the housing of Great Works of Music & Art & much earlier Wild Cards for both types of Great People.

I would also like to see Cultural Great People gain an alternative ability-like a Great Writer could be used as a "Loyalty Bomb" (Political Treatise a la Civ5), a Great Artist could act as a Culture Bomb (to claim free tiles for the city it was used in) & to create a Musical Group (like a Rock Band, only earlier).

I like Chiefton being the only Government. It’s simple and gives you a real incentive to get to your first real government at Political Philisophy.

I do thing Great Artists and Musicians do need a bit of a rethink now we have Rock Bands. But I’m not sure I have any really good suggestions. They do sort of already boost loyalty by giving you Era Score, but that’s a bit underwhelming given how easy it is to get Era Score. Sorry. I’m drawing a blank.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Thanks for the comments.



Just read your post on dedications. Similar ideas.

I think where FXS went a bit wrong was trying to make Dark Ages “bad... but not too bad”.

Dark ages being bad is a bit silly. For starters, the real dark ages just weren’t that “dark”. Lots of important advancements happened during that period and quality of life was okay. Dark Ages is just a name historians gave that period which stuck.

But more importantly, having a “bad thing” you avoid is too reductive for a game like Civ. Good players will always be able to avoid “bad things”, so they just end up not really experiencing the Mechanic at all.

Dark Ages should be something you want to have, that you actively pursue, and which creates its own risk reward. Making the dedications have a game effect, like golden ages do, gets you part way there. And then making those dedications negatives forces the player to take on more risk reward, as does making Golden Ages also have a negative (so, it’s obvious you’re choosing between multiple choices all with risks and rewards). Having both Dark Age and Golden Age Cards, neither having negatives, is just then more incentive to take the risk of a Dark Age or Golden Age.

The other changes I suggested are just intended to make some mechanics more integrated and give players more flexibility. Really, I’d love for Govenors to be totally reworked - I hate having to pick them every game. But I think what I’m suggesting would make them more flexible, even avoidable, without requiring a total rework which probably just isn’t practical anyway.

Either way. I hope we get a Third Expansion. And if we do, I hope it revisits RnF, because there is some great stuff there that’s just begging for a bit more development.

When it comes to the Ages, I feel gameplay trumps realism, which is why I want Dark Age dedications to have some negative undertones-like the ones I mentioned above. "To Arms" could be called "Lebensraum" in its Dark Age context-all the benefits of To Arms, but you suffer additional loyalty loss for every turn you are not at war.

I actually like the way they designed the Dark Age cards, as it happens.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I like Chiefton being the only Government. It’s simple and gives you a real incentive to get to your first real government at Political Philisophy.

I do thing Great Artists and Musicians do need a bit of a rethink now we have Rock Bands. But I’m not sure I have any really good suggestions. They do sort of already boost loyalty by giving you Era Score, but that’s a bit underwhelming given how easy it is to get Era Score. Sorry. I’m drawing a blank.

Having a choice of government from the outset won't undermime the push for Political Philosophy, as all those starter governments would still be limited to 2 slots (Tribal Collective might be 2 Economic Slots only). I would also probably give them a very weak ability to help further differentiate them though.

 

[acluewithout]

When it comes to the Ages, I feel gameplay trumps realism, which is why I want Dark Age dedications to have some negative undertones-like the ones I mentioned above. "To Arms" could be called "Lebensraum" in its Dark Age context-all the benefits of To Arms, but you suffer additional loyalty loss for every turn you are not at war.

I actually like the way they designed the Dark Age cards, as it happens.

If you give the dedications a negative, then I don’t think the Dark Ages Cards need a negative anymore. The problem with Dark Age Cards currently is that, if you don’t select any Dark Age Cards, you avoid any negative.

But yeah, I like the idea of Dark Age Dedications having a fairly negative undertone. Similarly, I like the idea of Golden Ages having a bit of a “too good to be true” or “careful what you wish for”. I’d love it if, after a Golden Age, you basically found yourself broke and with huge cities demanding more and more amenities.

Having a choice of government from the outset won't undermime the push for Political Philosophy, as all those starter governments would still be limited to 2 slots (Tribal Collective might be 2 Economic Slots only). I would also probably give them a very weak ability to help further differentiate them though.

Yeah, but with only two card slots one option inevitably is better than the other. I’d choose two economic slots over one Military and one Economic every day!

The only way I can see it working is if every “primitive” government has the same slots - one Military and one Economic - and then give the governments different base abilities (currently they have none).

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

If you give the dedications a negative, then I don’t think the Dark Ages Cards need a negative anymore. The problem with Dark Age Cards currently is that, if you don’t select any Dark Age Cards, you avoid any negative.

But yeah, I like the idea of Dark Age Dedications having a fairly negative undertone. Similarly, I like the idea of Golden Ages having a bit of a “too good to be true” or “careful what you wish for”. I’d love it if, after a Golden Age, you basically found yourself broke and with huge cities demanding more and more amenities.



Yeah, but with only two card slots one option inevitably is better than the other. I’d choose two economic slots over one Military and one Economic every day!

The only way I can see it working is if every “primitive” government has the same slots - one Military and one Economic - and then give the governments different base abilities (currently they have none).

I have routinely wanted to be able to run two economic policy cards during the Ancient Era, usually when I have the barbs under control. As I said though, giving each Ancient Government a small, unique bonus could also make it a more genuine choice.

 

[pgm123]

I don't see any chance we'll see major changes to R&F, but these would make good mods. I'd prefer them piecemeal, though.