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G-III Golf

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Marsden, Oct 17, 2008.

  1. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I have started thinking continents, myself. Nice thing about continents is that you can piss off half the AI's and get happiness, too ;)
     
  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Post deleted by user... see more informative post below.
     
  3. DWetzel

    DWetzel Emperor

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    I have a sick one going with the Babylonians right now... 48 cpt in 190 BC is pretty good, right? Three SGLs (for Mysticism, Polytheism, and Theology) have helped.

    The list so far:

    Palace 3950 BC
    Colossus 2310 BC
    Oracle 2270 BC (SGL)
    Temple 2150 BC
    ToA 975 BC (missed Pyramids by a turn, sadly, instead of using my SGL on it as I only had 5 turns left; took this as consolation prize)
    GLib 825 BC (SGL)
    Hanging Gardens 530 BC
    Library 510 BC
    Cathedral 450 BC
    Colosseum 430 BC
    Sistine Chapel 210 BC (SGL)

    This has the makings of a good one, yes? Now watch me screw it up.

    Edit: Bah. Today's lesson: "Large" is the one right below "Standard". Well, I guess I'll submit one for that table instead.
     
  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    You mean you played your Bab game on a small map DWetzel?
     
  5. DWetzel

    DWetzel Emperor

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    No, a standard one. I've been alternating between this gauntlet and starting through the various civs for Monarch OCCs, and for the OCC I went China on a standard map, hated that, and went back to the gauntlet and forgot to switch that setting.

    I'm through about 610 AD now in the game, got KT in addition to the others, looking decent for Bach's, we'll see how it finishes out. Likely not a #1 on that table but a #2 or #3 would be nice.
     
  6. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    China 20k? I'd put barbarians on and try to get quick promotions to fish for an early MGL... especially if you have ivory access early. Worried about them attacking your capital city and don't like the change-over rush? Put them on sedentary and then pop them with your units that you want promoted. That doesn't work with an OCC though.
     
  7. DWetzel

    DWetzel Emperor

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    Yes, Militaristic and OCC is a bad combination. Except that a few Mil wonders (e.g Knights Templar) can be a nice GA kickoff in the right circumstances.

    I'm starting down the list from the top, first colum then the second. So far bagged two 20k games and a Diplo win. One of these I'll try a tiny conquest probably. Obviously domination and 100k are out. ;)
     
  8. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    By all means scan through this if you prefer to do so.

    Things went fairly well in this game. I didn't pop a single SGL. I thought about trying with Carthage after I found a game (with a weak start) using Carthage as my tribe and taking that CB SGL. But, since I would mathematically need 33 and 1/3 starts to get my expected value of an SGL up to 1, it didn't seem all that likely. I wanted something a little easier to get a game going. I had one game going where I had plenty of food for the other cities in my empire, but I had Sumeria in there. I had a war with them that I didn't want and they later beat me to Education and then Astronomy. I thought "O.K., I might lose Cope's." Shortly after they started on Cope's, they started on J.S. Bach's Cathedral. At that point, even though I might have one, I abanonded that game. I found a game much more promising with the same tribe and took Sumeria out.

    Wet, warm, 3 billion, 70% archipelago map. I had a game crash one turn before I learned Physics, so I had to start a new session on that. Anyways, since I didn't want anyone industrious so no one would start on The Pyramids too early (such as Colossus-more shields to the Pyramids cascade), and I needed 6 tribes, this meant I needed to put in someone with Alphabet. I selected Rome. Wait... what about those expansionist tribes... the Zulus, the Mongols, and the Arabs?

    Well, I selected Germany, Babylon, Rome, Japan, the Aztecs, and the Celts as my opponents. Two scientific tribes for gifting to pick up the tech pace a little. Perisa and the Ottomans tribes might work out O.K., and maybe some or possible all of the one's with Alphabet, but I didn't take any chances. Plus, industrious tribes sometimes can develop too quickly. And, as I said before Sumeria can research all too quickly. I played with this start.



    O.K., that doesn't tell you much. I don't know which unit moved first, and since I hadn't taken a picture early on, after I submitted I "reloaded" from the 4000 BC start to give you this screenshot:



    Not much grassland, huh... and only two bonus grassland, right? Well, with all that extra food, three hills, and a forest, things can still work out rather well. Plains have the advantage that you can more easily boost their shield output in despotism. Now if you haven't done so already, note the tribe... it's the Portuguese!

    Sanabas's guide for upper level 20k games on standard on up maps relies on the Seafaring trait. Well, I had that. Through in a popped settler from a hut, and now Lisbon doesn't have to spit out a settler... ever. That tells you the basic part of my strategy, but as I learned in this game and my earlier aborted game there's more subtlities which can make Portugal quite good for this sort of game... especially if you don't have any SGLs. On top of this, on Demi-God and Deity levels the probability of getting a settler or a city (on Demi-God) comes out higher than most lower levels (you can't do either on Sid). So, once I found a start where I popped a settler early enough I knew I would get off and running (I did pop a settler in the Sumeria game, but there existed some other starts where I didn't pop a settler or a city where I liked it). In this game I popped a settler, and then two cities later on!

    This had the effect of strange city placement. On top of this, I ended up with Japan as a neighbor, so I worried about early war. It never came. But, since I had Japan as a neighbor I ended up with a gap between some of my cities and their's and never got enough cities that I had The Forbidden Palace. I worried about all of this, but I don't think it matter much. One subtlety I didn't expect playing as Portugal came as a result of my scouting. Since I had a second scout which I had trained, I had one waiting by a hut waiting for me to tell him to pop it and another one moving out west. It spotted several sources of ivory. So, I priortizied getting a settler out there, founded Emerita on the ivory, built a harbor there, and one in Oporto fairly early on. It yielded some nice trading bonuses also. Go Portugal.



    Another subtle effect of playing with Portugal I somewhat anticipated came from some of the 80% water Deity 20k games I've played in the last few weeks. Since I have the number of tribes at minimum, there often exists a good number of islands not claimed by the AIs until Navigation. One thought, which I haven't implemented in any game, comes as to set up specialist farms on these islands to help pick up your science rate. Maybe that won't improve culture all that much, since modern wonders may sometimes come too late to have much effect, but you'll have better units this way. On top of this, even with a small island you may still end up claiming resources later on. I didn't use one, but I think carracks can help here, since you might race to Astonomy anyways. I did, though plop a city down near some iron, so that I could at least build a factory later.



    Portugal also has another sort of advantage for this sort of game. As I said before, since you or I have min opponents on and it's archipelago, there exist lots of islands with huts still around for a while. So, you can either wait to pop huts on your home island (if you don't have a neighbor), or you can pop them on other islands say at the end of the ancient ages to pick up your science rate *while* keeping the AIs science rate under control. Even if you have some in the middle ages around, some extra gold might help you cash-rush that improvement sooner. Also, if you pop a warrior very early on, you have an MP source, so you can stock up on more gold. Similarly, the GA from the Colossus (if you pop a city in a good spot or a settler), will give you a little extra gold, will get some wonder(s) out faster to the tourist attraction and 1000 year bonus faster. Don't get me wrong, popping a settler early relies on probabilitistic elements... but you have a much better probability than an early SGL. You can also pop CB and BW, so you might not have to trade for them if your curragh sinks early or something.

    In my game, Lisbon went curragh-worker-worker and culture for much of the rest of the game. I didn't do The Republic slingshot... so I wouldn't run out of builds, taking Literature as my free tech from Philosophy. In 370 BC I traded for the list bit of Construction, finished off The Great Library, and revolted to The Republic (which I researched myself). I gifted Babylon and Germany up and they got Monotheism and Engineering for their free techs, both of which I traded for via The Republic.

    I actually *like* getting Engineering since it gives you the ability to forest. I had 30 shields post-republic with foresting one of the cows... and I think 27-29 during the ultra-early GA, 24 or 25 without it. I didn't gift Hammy and Otto up right away when I entered the industrial age so I could finish off Newton's safely. They got me Steam Power and Medicine. Once I learned Combustion I gifted Hammy up to Combusion (he still didn't have Atomic Theory) so that he would research me Flight and a turn before I finished Motorized Transportation he had it for me. The next turn I learned Motorized Transportation, traded for Flight and gifted Hammy and Otto up. They got Fission and Computers as their free techs. I couldn't buy either right away, but a turn or two later I could and went for broke (I could trade for luxuries most of the game and gpt also, I didn't need temples or cathedrals really, but built some at the end).



    I didn't risk warring with Japan or anyone else for the Heroic Epic. I didn't get a single SGL, as I think I would expect if I knew how many techs I researched first and did the calculations. I got all the wonders that I really wanted and only missed the lower culture wonders really (well the Babs built SETI in the modern era, but that didn't matter much). The rundown:

    Palace of Lisbon-4000 BC
    Temple-2750 BC
    Colossus-2030 BC
    Oracle-1650 BC
    Pyramids-1275 BC (both got shields from my early GA... since anything built before 750 BC gets old fairly quickly it doesn't hurt... plus you might have a little extra cash early on for cash-rushing or a little faster run to the medieval wonders)
    Library-1175 BC
    Museum of Mausollos-950 BC
    Statue of Zeus-730 BC
    Great Library-390 BC
    Cathedral-310 BC (I think I had 3-turn anarchy)
    Colosseum-290 BC
    Hanging Gardens-70 BC
    Sistine Chapel-290 AD
    University-300 AD (gotta love using AC to rush things in)
    Coperncius's Observatory-440 AD
    Shakespeare's Theater-600 AD
    J. S. Bach's Cathedral-780 AD
    Newton's University-880 AD
    Universal Suffrage-990 AD
    Wall Street-1030 AD
    Theory of Evolution-1110 AD
    Hoover's Dam-1200 AD
    Intelligence Agency-1240 AD
    Battlefield Medicine-1275 AD
    Research Lab-1350 AD
    United Nations-1400 AD
    Manhattan Project-1445 AD
    Apollo Program-1490 AD
    Finish date-1535 AD

    It sounds tricky to do in time, but maybe you might find an island in time with ivory if you don't have it on your home island. Oh, and if you haven't guessed already, I had barbarians at sedentary.
     
  9. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Nice game :)

    With Portugal, it may make sense to try a 60% water game, giving you more huts to pop for a faster AA. Biggest worry would be an AI popping philo, of course.

    btw - while I understand why you went philo->lit, I think the advantages of getting the republic slingshot far outweighs taking lit with philo. you get more shields faster and much huger research.

    As portugal, you might be able to pull off writing->lit->CoL->Philo->republic on demigod and get your lib early.
     
  10. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    After I finished I started thinking about a 60% water game. I haven't really seen many of those maps, but from what I've read and the one(s) I've played... the difficulty I see comes as that with that type of map the AIs I'd expect to have more contacts, so you'll have less control of the tech pace. Maybe there's nothing to worry about there, but what if they pop Monarchy? Also, the 60% archipelago map also sometimes looks like a pangea with a bunch of water in the middle of it, right? So, then the AIs might plop down closer than you like. Then again, maybe you have a greater probability of a chokepoint with a mountain to attempt to get The Heroic Epic. Writing->lit->CoL->Philo->Republic sounds attractive if you can do it. This makes me think you might even go Mapmaking->CoL->Philo->Republic->Literature and cram in another ancient wonder... though that does imply the little and Great Library later. Three techs like that though (either way) still sounds risky (but maybe I've understimated that early GA given another city up and running), and I know I don't want to run out of builds... and I'd probably pick an earlier Statue of Zeus and no Great Lighthouse over The Great Lighthouse and a later Statue of Zeus due to the 1000 year bonus coming faster. Oh... and thanks for the comment!
     
  11. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    It's funny - I've been trying less water maps and I've been getting my ass kicked with the tech pace - with the amount of land, someone can beeline to monarchy and get it and so I lose HG to a cascade all the time.

    I have a byzantine game that I like going - I think I'm behind Spoonwood's game, but my capitol is a monster (33 shields at size 12, 38-40 at size 20 (I have some land to clear), 55-57 with rails, 110 or more with factory, so I'll be able to maybe catch up later.

    But again, the tech pace is killer - I was able to build ToA, and I'll probably get the Wall, but I missed out on Oracle and HG.
     
  12. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    33 shields at size 12, is that pre-engineering... do you have any food left that you could forest something? You might get lucky with SGLs... I didn't get any.
     
  13. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    no, that's with 2 mined cows, 1 irrigated cow, 7 hills, 1 mountain, and 1 mined BG (and the cap is on a bg for 2 shields). I have at least one more BG in my radius (1 have a swamp and a jungle tile, so maybe 1 or 2 more. I think I get another center shield on size 13, but I don't remember if that's only industrious - it would be nice to get to 40. 3 water tiles.

    I got an SGL for writing, giving my pyramids, but oracle fell in the cascade :(
     
  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    In the above game I popped the settler a few turns in and moved it, so it got founded 20 or so turns in, I think. But, in a more recent game, I've popped it super early and founded Oporto 2 or 3 turns later... like on turn 5 or something. If you do this, you can do a max run on Writing, easily learn it a little before or after you finish The Colossus and then pull off The Republic slingshot without running out of builds (unless you get an SGL on Writing or CoL maybe). Well, I did that on a standard map on Deity, but since you have a smaller tech cost for Demi-God it might work just as well.
     
  15. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    well, my game isn't going to get submitted. just because the AI sucks at invasions is no reason to run really light... and even LESS reason to only garrison the capitol with 1 unit. 2 impis landed, I let them declare cause, hell... they are IMPIS.

    They defeated my 1 AC in my capitol :(
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Ouch! Poor horsie, why did that Zulu have to do so much violence to it?
     
  17. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    What tech path do you choose to help get SGLs? I rarely seem to get them, and to get 1 or more of them about makes a 20k game.
     
  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    You have a 5% probability of an SGL with a scientific tribe as opposed to a 3% probability with a non-scientific tribe. Wait.. you probably knew that much already. What level Overseer? You can always pre-select your opponents without any religious tribes and research CB first for an early SGL (forget huts for this, except on very low levels, I think). That *can* work on pretty much any level. In my Demi-God/Deity games of late, I've gone Writing, Philosophy-Literature, or CoL, Philosophy-The Republic, Literature, Maths or trade for Maths and then Currency or Construction... usually Currency. In the middle ages I stick to the top path meaning Monotheism, Theology, Education, Astronomy, Banking, Music Theory, Printing Press, Democracy, Free Artistry (sometimes Economics or Navigation gets thrown in there if I start running out of builds due to a lucky SGL), then bee-line Theory of Gravity. I doubt there's a "tried and true" research path to SGLs, since any tech will do if you get there first (meaning don't research the same thing the AI is... consult DaveMcW's list... you've seen that right?). I think the better rule comes as to research such that your 20k city always has a wonder to build and cash-rush or disband-rush the non-wonder cultural buildings.
     
  19. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    Emperor level, Babylonians. I've been going for Mysticism with no religious tribes and I always get it first but no SGL. I guess I could eliminate all seafaring tribes and go my normal standard path, the Republic sling on max.
     
  20. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    another option would be to go no tribes with pottery.

    Dumb question - you are sure that you have SGL's turned on? I have sometimes generated a bunch of starts with mapfinder and gone fishing, only to find out I had SGL's turned off :(
     

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