[G&K] Help! I can't beat Immortal!

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Faray357, Jun 24, 2012.

  1. Faray357

    Faray357 Chieftain

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    Hello all,

    After getting God and Kings I got back into the game, but then I soon remember why I got frustrated with the game. Anything below Immortal is too easy for me, yet I always get crused on immortal.

    The main issue is, everyone DoW's me. This would be so bad except I end up surrounded by 2-3 civs who make a ton of swordmen + archers + catas, and I can't hold them all off. Even if I manage peace 2-3 civs will be way ahead of the tech curve. Also I noticed it's impossible to get any wonders (Except for the weak ones).

    Can anyone give me some advice to help me out? What's a good start? Should I get a few cities early? Should I try to rush an AI before they have a chance to gang up on me? Should I even bother with wonders/religion?

    Thanks!
     
  2. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Don't know about religion yet, but just forget about wonders. By beating up AI you'll end up with more wonders than if you try to build them yourself and get beaten up by them.

    And if you don't manage to hold off AI with warriors (seems harder now), tech Archery. Also seems like rush buying walls will happen more often now. I almost never did that in vanilla and was very surprised last night to lose a city in single turn. :cool:
     
  3. Makaz

    Makaz Warlord

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    Same as OP there, emperor is ridiculously easy while I won't survive 60 turns on immortal :(

    Wonders ? Lol hanging garden usually gets build turn 25 and oracle turn 50... I just ignore it too. Only option I see is avoiding war-
    + having not enough units, wall or barracks will trigger a dow
    + spreading too close to ennemy will trigger a dow

    I have the bad habit of adding 2 civs to the normal number suggested by AI (I find less leaves too much annoying empty spaces to cross with armies) but that forces me to closer quarters and being dowed too soon
     
  4. Sunim

    Sunim Chieftain

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    I beat GoT on immortal yesterday with diplomacy victory on earth map, everything standard.

    I only got 1 DoW. But I was lucky to have a city state west and east of me aswell as the ocean south of me.

    I think being allied with many city states will lessen the chance of war. Even if they wage war, the attacks will be a lot easier to handle with many city states helping you (they tend to have huge armies).
     
  5. Louis8k8

    Louis8k8 Chieftain

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    When you guys say 'beat' emperor, does that mean 1v1 and/or trade abuse? I beat Emperor in 1v1 (no city states) yesterday in conquest and it was the hardest thing I've ever done :<

    I can't imagine how to even have a chance against immortal lol.

    The unit maintenance fee and AI's money cheat makes it seemingly impossible in immortal.
     
  6. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

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    It was easier in Vanilla, even with the psychopathic AIs.

    Now this is where I'm guessing... theory... 1) You actually have to use diplomacy! 2) Know when to stop - don't be bashing your swordsmen and catapults against a hilly capital city surrounding on both sides by mountain ranges 3) Being friends is more important than ever 4) Pray that your start is decent and not "walled on four sides by Monty, Bismarck, Attila, Oda"
     
  7. King_Course

    King_Course Prince

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    I dabbled a bit with Immortal, and I've also found that the early wars are a big problem. Now I usually aim for a cultural victory on this level, where I go full honour and later freedom. And essentially war to make gold. I also like to add several Civs so that makes early action mandatory.

    Anyway, I have taken tradition and then honor. And then as third policy the Great General. Point being, that when you are attacked you can plop down a citadel and actually defend your land untill you get the wheels rolling.You can always have a worker remove the Citadel later, so don't be afraid to put it on a hill next to your Capital. It's a strategy that essentially spends a great person. You can also keep him and then do the archer defense, and that might be enough, depending. I did manage to survive both early America and early Japan attacking me at once this way. It seems to be a pretty safe approach to immortal difficulty.
     
  8. Lieu

    Lieu Chieftain

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    Can't tell exactly without seeing saves and build choices, but it sounds like their economies begin to outstrip yours at that level and you're behind or late in early military, thus becoming an attractive target. Then it's kind of a struggle anyway because you can't get wonders and feel you can't catch up in tech? On higher difficulties you just have to accept you start behind in the tech situation and you play catchup - not sure if you succeed or not or what your strategy is. Also, don't worry much about early wonders. They are a risk on immortal and downright sickening how fast they go on diety :p You should be able to get midgame+ wonders though, if you want to. Again, not sure exactly what is happening.

    Anyway, it's a really good idea to get enough military units out in time so you don't get dogpiled like that. It's that early balance between growth and defense - and in this case military is an economic investment when you prevent wars :D That's probably the main thing if the DoWs are ending you. If your economy can't manage that, it's a lot more complex. Could be any combination of many little things or some big things that make your path not strong enough. But as potential advice, a good start usually involves a unit, a monument, and abuse of liberty or tradition to accelerate your expansion and build your core. But don't overextend, do sell luxuries, and do get early warriors/archers.
     
  9. qyll

    qyll Prince

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    Maybe try playing as a civ with a good early UU such as Babylon or Persia.
     
  10. King_Course

    King_Course Prince

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    I have an immortal game here I find pretty interesting. It's on Epic speed with all DLC (and added Civs), so not for everyone I guess. As you can tell from the start, moving up and getting Petra is make it or break it. I got my luxuries up and sold them as soon as they were done, rush buying workers and granary. Just keeping happiness in the positive. I got Quarries and then straight for Currency. It's manageable because of the settled Scientist. Settling him in the desert is a gamble since you have to work a no food tile, but I pulled it of, good for later.

    I took my own advice of going Trad then to Great General in Honor, and that early Citadel proved vital for my life expectancy. If you play the map you can prolly guess where the fighting took place.

    Am a good deal into the game now, In the year 1485. Neighbouring an agressive tech leader is my foremost challenge. He is fielding riflemen, and I just decided to go for public schools instead of playing catch up, my cannons and knights must hold the line if he attacks. So still in the game, just hard build Himmelai Castle, and doing fine techwise myself, compared to the rest of the Civs.

    Wont spoil anymore, but alot of stuff going on.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TyoWXqQsKLh5s7Iq_C-Zf8_D0JssVSVDGNXYJdyuPFU?feat=directlink
     

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  11. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    Really? Warrior rushes by the AI seem to be almost completely ineffective now as well with the new city strengths, Hiwatha sent like 5 warriors + 2 archers at me on Immortal and I fought him off with just an archer + scout and the city only got to half health. It's amazing how well a fortified scout can distract. :)

    If you're talking about later on when they bring catapults, those can be somewhat annoying depending on the terrain but you can usually subdue them pretty easily. I sometimes have to sacrifice something to kill the cat, but usually if you kill their catapult you kill their rush.

    I can see it happening, but I've yet to have a city go down in literally one turn.

    Oh yeah, OP, what civ are you playing as?
     
  12. Louis8k8

    Louis8k8 Chieftain

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    I like playing intimate 1v1's so it's not like a 4-civ FFA. But I stick on one capital for a very long time until I get artillery or able to afford Castles after Kremlin. I jumped from 1 Capital for 150-ish turns to 4 cities. (3 cities at once after Liberty's reduction of culture increase per city). I played Babylon and got them Wall of Babylon + Castle + Cannon and I was generally safe. Granted, I was in some sketchy back and forth sieges on my smaller cities (Hiawatha never attacked my capital). But they barely managed to survive.

    An 8 pop new city (with completed Tradition) and those defense held against immortal ai's 3 Infantry, 2 gatling, 2 artillery.

    I play super passive tech-stalling game because I'm an abuser of 4 range artillery, GG's and 4 range battleships (if applicable). So I did get great wall, kremlin and had my religion give +20% combat bonus in friendly religious cities. I didn't even know where Hiawatha is until I traded him embassy. I basically camped around my own area entire game. I really can't afford the unit maintenance fee.

    @Light Cleric
    Yes, for Immortal, no siege weapons = end of threat. I also don't build roads at all. I either harbour or no trade route at all. I'm play so defensively that I don't move much at all and try to slow down movement for the enemy as much as possible.

    I've never been attacked by catapults before my own catapults unlock. Immortal doesn't seem that smart with timing attacks (or I'm just lucky they don't attack as fast as they tech).

    Pre-catapult rushes never seemed to be a threat for me. I don't know about immortal before G+K.

    ==============
    You can rush Immortal AI but it's super world specific and civ specific. I don't consider that as a noteworthy victory against the AI though. It's fine if you want to break some record like fastest win vs Immortal.
     
  13. RedRover57

    RedRover57 Emperor

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    Enemies don't move faster on your roads, so you are only hurting yourself by not building roads. You have to be friendly (open borders) to move faster on another civs roads.
     
  14. Louis8k8

    Louis8k8 Chieftain

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    Doh! Did not know that. It's my play style, I never siege city with a large melee force. It's always 1~2 fast units (night to modern armor) and I get this illusion that I'm moving at lightning speed because I'm stepping on my opponent's roads. So I thought the same would be for opponent on my roads.

    I'll probably consider roads for cities that are far away and/or do not benefit from water resources.

    Roads are such a pain to build ._. I usually crunch on the # of units I have to cut down on that ridiculous unit maintenance. So I delete workers whenever I feel I have more than I'd make use out of.
     
  15. King_Course

    King_Course Prince

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    Quoting myself because I played the map and actually managed a Science win. Go me :)



    Spoiler :
    Mahatma didn't like it much, he was leading at one point, but me and Japan tied him up in war. He build some boosters, as did Siam.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/e6EM2Linco04bQl461Ezxc_D0JssVSVDGNXYJdyuPFU?feat=directlink


     
  16. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Not for capital, but for second-third-fourth city they can be. Especially when AI brings GG, you don't have Archery and get multiple DoW's. I lost cities in two games. :) Am not used to tech Archery at all. :mischief:
     
  17. SlithyTove

    SlithyTove Chieftain

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    Surviving early games on Immortal can be tricky especially on big continent or pangea maps.

    Get the scouts out there early to find as many civilizations as you can. When you find a civ close to you, try and bribe some of the warmongery civs like Mongols or Huns to attack them. By sowing discord between the powerful AIs you can keep them too busy to worry about you.

    Be careful where you drop your cities. If you drop a city close to an AI you can expect them to react with war. If you can, expand away from nasty AIs. If you can't, choose your city as much based on defensibility as luxuries or nice terrain. A city on a hill with terrain that is difficult to maneuver around or forces them to attack over rivers is ideal.

    I often drop a "pull" city, ie one that I know will be a lightning rod for attacks in heavily defensible areas and get an archer/walls up there stat. It helps to have a ranged+meatshield combo around to send as reinforcements as well.

    Be very careful not to lose units. You will be fighting people with superior tech for much of the game and have to make up for it by keeping highly trained units alive.
     
  18. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    That makes sense. I've gone Archery as my second tech since forever because I tend to buy an archer earlier on(unless I'm sword rushing)because I know the AI attack is coming, it's just a question of when.
     
  19. Louis8k8

    Louis8k8 Chieftain

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    Go you indeed! 547-ish turn seems fairly reasonable. I assume you were in frequent combat? I haven't beaten immortal without horribly rigging the initial setup to my favor in a science victory. In emperor, my opponent got 2/6 science pieces at turn 440, while I had 6/6. We started constant combat at mid turn 200's (Standard speed).

    If not constant combat, how do you slow down their tech so that they don't already science win in turn 400~500? I'm not worried as much about military vs Immortal, it's their tech speed that scares me.

    What did you go after Tradition -> Honor?

    ========
    @ DEfending rushes
    That's why it's not a great idea to expand too early against Immortal. It's not like against players where you get a huge economic lead later on and they can't take your city. Immortal is unforgiving. I would no expand until I can construct a city and immediately buy defense-type structures along with a siege unit.
     
  20. King_Course

    King_Course Prince

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    I started out thinking I would do a 3 city cultural victory, so settled artists on so on, was basically playing for fun so to speak, not with victory in mind. Took a while before I decided to go for Science victory, culture would never happen. There was a lot of warring, but if you defend and then pursue, maybe raze (which I did to the Romans) you can often force some good deals through which will help a lot. USA got so far ahead in tech, attacked me often and were flanking my land in such a way that I had to conquer him, or he would conquer me

    I also think it is important to attack the strong, and not the weak. Rome and China lost the game and got stuck, I could have attacked East instead. But for what? USA would become even stronger and further ahead, while I would try to recoup after my war. So keeping them from running away, means attacking the one who is doing it I guess. So as soon as I had secured my position, I was warring the techleader more or less.

    I took the Science policy after Honor and Trad, I never got a hold of any CS, not for long at least.

    Not sure how I slow down their tech :). I try to keep up. I added 4 civs to the map I think, and maybe that gives more early dangers. But at the same time maybe they keep each other from doing the runaway. India sort of did it at one time, and they were alone on their Island. Siam got fast too, but not after securing his island and defeating 2 other civs.
     

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