[G&K] Went from Prince to King level and now get whacked!

hbuus

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
24
After winning a few games on Prince level, I just started playing on the next level (King). However now I consisently get my ass kicked! Civilizations either attack me more or less immediately, or feign friendship and backstab me at the worst possible time (for me!) :)

New to me is also that the AI seem to handle battle much better. Now attacks are much better coordinated, usually involving 5-6 units or more.

How do you survive on King level?

I just lost a game where I produced a lot of Archers, so my military went up in rankings from 8th place to 2nd. Sure, then I was left alone for a while, but then the attacks on me picked up again with Rome and Germany fighting me together. At this point my military for some reason dragged down my economy, resulting in zero science.

Conclusion: I got my ass kicked.

How do you survive?
 
Settle your second city as fast as you can, build pop and tech up quickly. Also, pick defensible city locations that help you level the playing field somewhat.

I love choke points (mountains, narrow land, etc.), but I love rivers more - nice long rivers, rivers that require either a movement penalty on crossing or an 8-hex detour to get around. Get a river between your troops and an invading army and you almost have a Great Wall. Hills are also good for slowing them down long enough to smash their siege units.

Also, archers are basically good for hunting and killing barbs, but to defend against a coordinated attack you need CBs. If your archer brigade killed your economy, you probably had low pop and spent all your time/money building archers. Rush CB and build growth/economy buildings to support pop growth even in wartime.
 
I took a screenshot, but I don't know how to transfer a TGA picture to JPG, so I can upload it?
 
Get irfanview. There's other editors out there but that one works well for me.
 
You don't need to upload a screenshot to a website in order to post it here. Just take a screenshot in-game, find the picture in your Steam folder, and then attach it as an attachment in a post.
 
Settle your second city as fast as you can, build pop and tech up quickly. Also, pick defensible city locations that help you level the playing field somewhat.

(...)

Also, archers are basically good for hunting and killing barbs, but to defend against a coordinated attack you need CBs. If your archer brigade killed your economy, you probably had low pop and spent all your time/money building archers. Rush CB and build growth/economy buildings to support pop growth even in wartime.

I didn't build up population; I was way too busy building those archers just to survive. Later I upgraded the archers to CBs but still I got slaughtered once Germany came with its Horsemen, Pikemen and Catapults.

But you say I should have build growth/economy buildings instead and then rushed CBs? Hm. I don't know if my economy would support rushing units? I'll go back in saved versions and try this strategy :)
 
Looking back, one error I made was to build Colesseums everywhere which basically wasn't necessary and just cost gold in maintenance. That's part of why my economy halted, I think.
 
Since the counter says turn 118 and 75 AD, I'm guessing this is on quick speed. I count 11 comp bows, with no melee (although one unit I counted a a comp bow is partially obscured by the Troyes city banner) and (I think) 3 workers to support 4 cities. Did you build all those units for defense? Add a couple of melee and you should be/have been able to steamroll your continent. With an investment like that in military units, you need to use them -- crank out a few melee units and go conquering. Don't sit back waiting; yes, you'll be left alone for now, but your units will get obsolete (probably already are) and you will get killed by unit maintenance costs.

Also, your cities are quite small - 4, 3, 2 and 2 pop at turn 118, and just building a library in your capital and colosseums in your other 3 cities. You've clearly prioritized settlers and archers to the neglect of everything else. Beakers are only 14 (11 from pop and 3 from palace), which is not recipe for survival.

Also, why colosseums at 11 happiness?

EDIT: I see you just answered a few of these questions.

Can you post your initial autosave?
 
Some immediate comments after seeing screenshot and save:

  1. Why are you building Coliseums if (a) you have +11 :c5happy: and moreover (b) you have -18gpt?
  2. Your cities are not growing => science is very weak => AI will out-tech you. Germany are already like 7 tech ahead. While sometimes it is not dangerous if you are beelining to some expensive tech wile AI are researching cheap ones, here it is very dangerous.
  3. You didn't build NC - you should finish fast, in any case no later than around t100. Moreover, you don't have library in any of your cities!
  4. You didn't beeline to any tech. Normally after getting CB (if you feel in danger) you go to Education as fast as possible to build universities and hire GS. In yur map you are far away from AI, so Construction could be delayed.
  5. Your army seems to be too big at this point. You should be able to defend yourself with 6-8 CBs.
  6. Don't automate workers, at the beginning at least. Manual control is much more effective. You didn't build any farm - this slows your growth => science ...
  7. If you start with Liberty, taking two policies from Tradition doesn't have a lot of science. It would be much better to finish Liberty first and use GS to build academy and increase your bpt.


I would recommend you to read 4 cities tradition opening thread, Sadato OCC thread. Although OCC play is basically different from normal one, you can learn a lot from this threads.
 
I loaded up the save. Some thoughts:

(1) Low production in your capital has slowed your start dramatically, combined with the fact that your lux resources are sea based. This is just luck of the map (or bad luck in this case). I'm guessing that because of the low production you had very long build times of things like work boats, settlers, workers, archers, etc. which is why you haven't built any important buildings (like granaries, libraries, water mills, etc. ) yet. Your capital is very low pop for T118 and your science rate is dreadful. Remember that pop = science, and science is extremely important for all victory types, except for when you are going for a domination win before turn 130 with something like horse archers (Huns). In almost every other case, science = win.

(2) It looks like you have used a large number of hammers to build a huge comp bow army rather than building infrastructure in your cities, however, you have not used the army to conquer neighbors so they are basically dead weight at this point and are just costing you a lot of maintenance. With an army like that you could have conquered at least one or 2 neighbors by this time. If conquering a neighbor is not your strategy then a smaller defensive army would suffice (but you need science to keep them upgraded and not obsolete).

(3) You are building coliseums everywhere, but have excess happiness. The precious hammers could be put to much better use at this point. You have some decent secondary city sites but they are underdeveloped because of poor build order (those unnecessary walls probably took forever to build in your El Dorado city, for example).

(4) You have taken both Liberty and Tradition policies. I would suggest one tree or the other. I highly recommend Tradition for newer players as you will have a much easier time if you have a strong capital. In my mind, Liberty is a more advanced strategy. Read the thread on the standard 4-city Tradition start. The problem is that Liberty seduces new players with the free worker/settler. However it is much more difficult for new players to learn to manage growth, happiness and gold using Liberty. Stick with a smaller/taller empire at first to really learn the basics.

Suggestions: I'm sure the game is still salvageable at this point, but I would recommend re-rolling and trying standard 4-city Tradition. Good goals to aim for would be settling 4 cities total and building a National College before turn 75. Researching Education by turn 100. Building universities in all cities and staffing science specialists before turn 150 (this will require growing your cities to a high enough pop to support the use of specialists - at least 10 pop per city and more is even better of course). Once you can pull off this strategy and still manage to defend against early AI aggression (build a sufficient sized defending army of comp bows/pikes) then things will get much easier for you and you will be playing at Emperor level with ease.
 
Here is the initial save version. Speed is just the default speed.

Yep, I built all those 11 or whatever comp bows just for defense ! :)
Basically I enjoy building and growing cities the most.
Maybe because I am not very good at combat, to be honest.
I read somewhere that if you build 6 CAs and a couple of melee units you can go and wreck havoc in enemy territory. I'm just so terribly bad at that!
I find it difficult to use the terrain.
It's confusing to me all the rules of combat - which units get a penalty in jungle, which get a bonus on grassland and so on.
I suppose I should sit down once and for all and study these rules intensely.

Thanks for helping me out with this.
 

Attachments

Some immediate comments after seeing screenshot and save:

  1. Why are you building Coliseums if (a) you have +11 :c5happy: and moreover (b) you have -18gpt?
  2. Your cities are not growing => science is very weak => AI will out-tech you. Germany are already like 7 tech ahead. While sometimes it is not dangerous if you are beelining to some expensive tech wile AI are researching cheap ones, here it is very dangerous.
  3. You didn't build NC - you should finish fast, in any case no later than around t100. Moreover, you don't have library in any of your cities!
  4. You didn't beeline to any tech. Normally after getting CB (if you feel in danger) you go to Education as fast as possible to build universities and hire GS. In yur map you are far away from AI, so Construction could be delayed.
  5. Your army seems to be too big at this point. You should be able to defend yourself with 6-8 CBs.
  6. Don't automate workers, at the beginning at least. Manual control is much more effective. You didn't build any farm - this slows your growth => science ...
  7. If you start with Liberty, taking two policies from Tradition doesn't have a lot of science. It would be much better to finish Liberty first and use GS to build academy and increase your bpt.


I would recommend you to read 4 cities tradition opening thread, Sadato OCC thread. Although OCC play is basically different from normal one, you can learn a lot from this threads.

Hey marekb, thanks for your reply. I'll try to answer below.

- I started building Colleseums because I had -8 Happiness after settling city no. 4. Looking back I should have made sure to instead research the right technologies to let workers improve the relevant Happiness resources. Banana and Ivory would have given me +8 Happiness if improved.

- I didn't build Granary or other growth or education buildings because I focused on building archers for survival

- NC, I will make sure to get that ASAP from now on

- What does "beeline to technology" mean? I also don't know what GS means :blush:

- The army is definitely too big. I'll try defending myself with 6-8 CBs.

- Don't automate workers, ok! I suppose after developing Happiness and Strategic resources, building farms comes next in priority?

- Ah, GS means Great Scientist! Finishing Liberty to get a GS and to build an academy is a good strategy, I never considered that. I picked Oligarchy in order to reduce the gold cost of my army (as it zeroes gold cost for garrissoned units).

I will study the two threads you mention.

Thanks!
 
I loaded up the save. Some thoughts:

(1) Low production in your capital has slowed your start dramatically, combined with the fact that your lux resources are sea based. This is just luck of the map (or bad luck in this case). I'm guessing that because of the low production you had very long build times of things like work boats, settlers, workers, archers, etc. which is why you haven't built any important buildings (like granaries, libraries, water mills, etc. ) yet. Your capital is very low pop for T118 and your science rate is dreadful. Remember that pop = science, and science is extremely important for all victory types, except for when you are going for a domination win before turn 130 with something like horse archers (Huns). In almost every other case, science = win.

=> I did have some lux resources that were land based, I just didn't develop them to begin with = error on my part. It's true that production is very low in my capital, didn't realize that until you mentioned it. ALso I didn't really consider that pop = science, I'll keep that in mind from now on.

(2) It looks like you have used a large number of hammers to build a huge comp bow army rather than building infrastructure in your cities, however, you have not used the army to conquer neighbors so they are basically dead weight at this point and are just costing you a lot of maintenance. With an army like that you could have conquered at least one or 2 neighbors by this time. If conquering a neighbor is not your strategy then a smaller defensive army would suffice (but you need science to keep them upgraded and not obsolete).

=> Ok!

(3) You are building coliseums everywhere, but have excess happiness. The precious hammers could be put to much better use at this point. You have some decent secondary city sites but they are underdeveloped because of poor build order (those unnecessary walls probably took forever to build in your El Dorado city, for example).

=> You're right :)

(4) You have taken both Liberty and Tradition policies. I would suggest one tree or the other. I highly recommend Tradition for newer players as you will have a much easier time if you have a strong capital. In my mind, Liberty is a more advanced strategy. Read the thread on the standard 4-city Tradition start. The problem is that Liberty seduces new players with the free worker/settler. However it is much more difficult for new players to learn to manage growth, happiness and gold using Liberty. Stick with a smaller/taller empire at first to really learn the basics.

=> I will read the thread on 4-city Tradition start and then try to focus on that instead of on Liberty.

Suggestions: I'm sure the game is still salvageable at this point, but I would recommend re-rolling and trying standard 4-city Tradition. Good goals to aim for would be settling 4 cities total and building a National College before turn 75. Researching Education by turn 100. Building universities in all cities and staffing science specialists before turn 150 (this will require growing your cities to a high enough pop to support the use of specialists - at least 10 pop per city and more is even better of course). Once you can pull off this strategy and still manage to defend against early AI aggression (build a sufficient sized defending army of comp bows/pikes) then things will get much easier for you and you will be playing at Emperor level with ease.

=> Those are excellent and very specific suggestions. I will do exactly that - restart the game and then set up those aims you mention for myself.

Thank you very much for looking at this, RedRover57. I've answered above inside the quote.
 
Unfortunately this map is just a recipe for disaster - low production capital with both Germany and Rome as close neighbors. Settling 4 cities on this map is going to be difficult to defend against those neighbors as they are both notorious for early aggression and have tough early UU's. Basically, when your scout meets both Germany and Rome at the start then alarm bells should go off in your head. The only option is to try to kill them both as quickly as possible (which is going to be difficult with low production, so settling city 2 in a high production spot is critical).
 
- What does "beeline to technology" mean? I also don't know what GS means :blush:
Civ V List of Acronyms and Terms

- Don't automate workers, ok! I suppose after developing Happiness and Strategic resources, building farms comes next in priority?
Happiness to sell them for gold (if you are positive in happiness), strategic (to sell). If your growth is slow (or you have not reserch a proper tech for lux) you can build farm before improving lux. Or if you don't need lux (you cannot sell and you already have it).
 
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