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G-Major 134

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by shulec, Nov 23, 2014.

  1. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    I've submitted my first game. I hope that it will be accepted.

    Time to beat would be 625 AD which is T425.

    If the game gets accepted, I'll make a short writeup for you.
     
  2. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Generated just so many maps over the past days. It's just impossible to get a start that can compare towards the starts that I had. Tripple Food + Plains Hill + 1 Gold + 3 grassland riverside tiles was the best I got, and I didn't play it, for reasons I don't know myself, maybe because 3 tiles for Cottages + 1 Gold are simply to little Commerce, having in mind that I had problems of having a deficit at 0% even with the double Gold that my finished game had, + it had 1 Gold in another city and I even popped 1 Gold out of a grassland Mine, so 4 Gold + 4 Cottages and still deficit at 0%.

    This really breaks the Gauntlet for me, Highlands is just such a poor mapscript, but it sometimes has so awesome starts, but they're just too rare.

    How am I supposed to play a game where I know, that the start alone will make me finish the game at least 20 turns later? Even if playing extremely well and with all the knowledge I got from the first round, I still had to win gambles like getting the Mids early, getting the right religion, and then there are always the gambles in the first war, which, as I experienced, can really break a good game.

    I'm not saying, that my first game was super-awesome, and that I couldn't beat it even with a worse start, but having seen the starts that are possible, it just doesn't make any sense to play for me without having at least double Food + double Plains Gold + Plains Hill + 4 riverside Grasslands. Even then, I'd still miss the 3rd source of Food, and I've just seen the crazy power of tripple wet Corn + dual Gold.

    I hope that this is really gonna get better, and I would be interested in hearing from you what starts you play, and what you think, how much a good start makes of a game. Of course, there are the other factors, like Huts, good 2nd and 3rd city location, if a friendly AI goes Currency and / or Civil Service early and further and so on, but I just have the feeling that a crazy good start overrules them all. To get a better game, how far would I have to advance into a game and how many gambles would I have to win, before the game is better than my game that just had crazy good land and in which I won the Mids-gamble and didn't suffer any unfair losses in the first war while having no rivers to connect the cities and getting religion late and having a buddhist love-fiest leading to some far advanced AIs?

    Questions over questions.
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Hey, you finished one! You might be the only one. Take some time off and let mapfinder run for a month. I also am having trouble getting myself motivated to play this gauntlet. It's just never been my type of game. But every time I come back to this thread, I start thinking I'll play again...and then I don't.

    How about a triple gem start?
     
  4. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Yes, I finished one and don't know if it will be accepted because I had a random-crash and replaying the moves was very difficult with 300 units. I wrote them an essay why this game should be accepted, but I guess it's difficult. Crash was during war-times, because there were no peace-times in that game, and even with the results not having changed, one could argue that it still was a critical phase of the game in which crashes simply must not happen.
    Maybe you can send them an eMail supporting me, because playing this round without crash(es) is basically impossible, you know why.

    Tripple Gems start are nice at first, but then they suck because one is surrounded by Jungle and Desert territory. The resources are definately great, but one cannot miss out on all of those trees in the Sheep / Pigs belt.
     
  5. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

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    Come on, WT. You can't just hand this gauntlet over to Seraiel. All of your talk about a T250 finish has all of us curious... :mischief:

    Personally, I haven't touched Civ since SGOTM-20 finished. In fact, I haven't been "hard-core" involved since SGOTM-18 ended a year ago (I'm sure that you noticed in our last two SGOTMSs :lol:). That game just kicked my butt with respect to time, energy and motivation. So I understand why your hesitant to dive into this one...
     
    Dhoomstriker likes this.
  6. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

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    Everyone on this forum knows that you're an honest player. I hope that they give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. It would suck to put so much time and energy into a game only to have it rejected.
     
  7. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    I abandoned my earlier game without trying war against my friendly neighbor. For one, he had a peace vassal, and for two, in doing analysis of my cities and how I should have improved the land, I couldn't put my heart in a game where every time I looked at half my cities I'd seen five improvements I want to tear out at twelve turns each.

    But also, to tie into the map discussion, I wasn't crazy with the start (no gold/gems in capital) but had played it forward just to try to get a feel for things (what I wanted in non-capital cities, how my AI's would act, maintenance/gold, etc) until I could run mapfinder again. But once I started, I found I did better than I'd done on better maps ruined with early DoWs.

    But the game is so complex, no one can answer your questions about what might make up for such a good start. I've definitely abandoned good capital cities because I couldn't find a good site for a second or third city, not to mention a fifth or sixth.

    I did discover that I had mapfinder set to throw away maps with more than six hills, and changing that definitely gave me more good maps to play. Right now I'm playing a wet rice-gem-gold-ivory-two flood plain start with two (non-jungle!!) gems in another city. It's rare for a gem game in that there's relatively little jungle by me, some decent flood plains/grassland/sugar cities, a decent amount of forest, and I have lots of room to expand being in the far south. Oh, and did I mention I got mining + BW from huts?

    I'd say I'll play anything with some combination of three or more gems/gold/5+ food source to see what my non-capital cities would be like and what I get from huts. If I win and were to start again, I can definitely see being like you and wanting a start as good, but I definitely think decent starts are worth playing until your first war just to see how it compares to other games.

    But who knows, if no one else finishes, I'm guessing your game would win :p
     
  8. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Thx, but it wouldn't be my first 80h+ game that I had to let go. I once played an 1145 AD Tiny Marathon Spacerace, had one crash, replayed everything 1 to 1, game still didn't get accepted because "it didn't feel right because the crash was in war" .
    That the war was the last war of the round and that I basically was so dominant that nothing could have stopped me didn't matter.

    I'm a little traumatized since that game.

    Otoh: Played a 167h Spacerace last update, game crashed 7 turns before victory, got accepted.

    But I'm getting used to wasting a lot of time on getting one good game. Before this 80h Gauntlet game, I played 2 20h+ games with the same settings just to get comfortable, and I still plan on playing a 2nd as soon as I get a decent start.

    There was also the 80h+ Sitting Bull Spacerace I had to throw away 30t before end because the game crashed 7 times! I then found out that effects can be disabled in the settings preventing the crashes, like I also found out that even my high-end gaming PC has to run on low-graphic-settings to handle a 400 unit Conquest game properly.

    The game of the Gauntlet is still unchecked although I submitted at least 2 days before today. Maybe they accepted my proposal to at least put the game "on hold" , and accept it should the Gauntlet have only games with crashes, because tbh, I expect this Gauntlet to crash for everybody at least once. The settings are just way of the scale, the map is too large, there are too many units in the end...

    I hope everybody has at least disabled effects in the graphic options and also runs with low graphic settings like me because of course I don't want your games to crash! It's just very likely, because CIV is just too unstable when certain limits are passed, even on high-end hardware that's state of the art.
     
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Ya, my last submission to the HoF was January '14. SG consumes all your Civ energy.
    It was so nice to finish that last SGotM a month early....and have an extra month off.

    I hope you come back. That was the best team synergy ever (for me). Thx Capn'
     
  10. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    If you got trouble with improvements: The best way is to only build 1 improvement in advance, and to only think "what does my city need now" or "what does my city want next" . So build a Farm if you want growth / production, build a mine if you want to lower the whipping unhappiness or if the city grows so large that whipping becomes uneffective, build a Cottage if it's the Buro capital or if you are in urgent need for :commerce: , build Workshops when you get Chemistry, prefer Windmills over Mines in small cities because they're more efficient with the whip, etc.

    And don't worry too much about "perfect cities" . A good city can be one that has 1 Farm because it needed to grow, that has 3 Villages because it was actually designed for Commerce, and which has 5 Workshops because you then had Chemistry and freshly build Workshops are simply better than freshly built Cottages.
    That city can have a Granary, a Library, a Forge, a University and a Barracks and be between size 4 and 10 depending on what got whipped lately.

    Try to learn this "step by step" way. Only the next building, only the next improvement. And simply use your land like it suits you. If an AI specialized a city to Commerce, don't rebuild it, way too complicated. Better chop troops and whip that city while not working the Hamlets or even Villages if you don't need the :commerce: . If an AI built all Farms in one city and you'd like to have Cottages in it, don't rebuild it, simply run Specialists, and if a city is specialized to Hammers, great, you got another production city!

    Mining and BW from Huts... You lucker... And that start sounds really nice, Gold and Gems and Food.

    Hoping your game goes well and that what I wrote on city-specialization helps you. Keep me informed on the status of your Conquest, because that is the main factor that makes up this game :) .

    Probably I shouldn't help my opponents, but I just cannot resist... ;)
     
  11. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Nice!
    But the big question is....copper?
     
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    You've got my support. I know how stressful it can be. It's a shame they are so strict on this cus it doesn't really matter in the long run. However, I have to say, the staff is quite consistent. After all these years, I suppose they just need to stick to whatever rules they've enforced all along, and they seem to be doing a great job of that.

    Personally, I think, if it brought more competition, I'd love to see reloading allowed in gauntlets. :eek: Sure, the HoF would not be able to accept the game into the top finisher tables, but they could still include all games in the gauntlet results. Put a '*' next to the game. Bring it! Reload all you want! If you don't know what you're doing, you won't beat Seraiel's 625AD game!
     
  13. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    I feel like my system is trustworthy, but I've been playing some Huge games lately, so I'm gonna go ahead and disable effects. Thx! for saving me from the disaster that hopefully I'll never know I avoided.
     
  14. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    My game got excluded. Must have moved 1 or more units differently to when originally playing the turn, with 400+ units it's impossible to know exactly which units were moved before a crash and which weren't.

    Now I really need a 4th awesome start.
     
  15. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    I'm Sorry to hear that Seraiel, it seems kind of crazy to me to reject a game for a single crash. The good side is, as WastinTime says, at least we know they are strict and consistent.

    The better side is, hey, now you have even more reason to play the gauntlet!

    And the answer, WastinTime, is, yes copper, but in the middle of a desert I haven't settled yet but can if I get desperate. Alternately, a couple border pops will do it. Lincoln currently has iron for trade and I'm trying to see what he will require for it, but alas, work.
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Oh my, you didn't really get to take advantage of Copper revealed before turn 10 like I had hoped....think Axe rush. I guess you at least had whipping...but no granary :(

    I really think that a 'mapfinder start' is not what this gauntlet needs. What you need is a quick early conquest.
     
  17. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

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    Did these two posts come from the same guy? :mischief: :lol: :p

    Seriously, I get what you're saying about the endless posts every day that have to be read, understood and often times replied to. I guess with English as a second language it's that much harder... although your English is quite good.

    SGOTM, just like HOF, isn't for everyone. It's amazing to me that Civ4 is still alive and kicking so many years after it's been released. It goes to show you how deep this game really is and how CFC has done some amazing things to keep the interest level going for so long.
     
  18. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    While I've had games with one or two opponents within ten squares and this would have been a good route to go, this was not one of them. To axe rush, I would have had to settle my first settler in a place with two grasslands, a bunch of desert and jungles, and no specials other than desert copper. Then, when I assembled my axe army I would have had to march them (literally) twenty spaces to my nearest opponent. Then, if I won, I would have been saddled with enormous maintenance costs.

    There's simply too much space on this particular map. I am expanding to nine cities quite comfortably, with six gems in my borders, and with many unsettled desert spaces in between my cities, and then I will go to war. I've quit other maps for this gauntlet for not being able to find four decent cities before I was hemmed in.

    But speaking of things breaking right and things breaking wrong . . . I am unable to get copper or iron without a useless city. I had initially ignored a potential decent copper source in the direction I chose not to expand figuring, as Seraiel said, that iron is so bountiful on this map. Indeed, there are eight within ten squares of my borders, but none inside.
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    I'm not sure if you're just daring me to play this gauntlet, or if you're being sarcastic and are an unbeliever! Well, whichever it is, it worked! Along with the other great discussion lead by Seraiel. I'm officially in. I'm giving this one shot. My target is still T250 :devil:

    For practice, I just submitted a HUGE, DEITY, RAGING BARB, QUICK SPEED conquest...and it only took 57 turns IIRC. That game cannot be compared in any way to this gauntlet, so forget I mentioned it, but it was a good refresher on taking vassals and led me to the conclusion:
    I want the AI to be small and overlapping. Therefore, I went with Dense Clusters and Seas. Max opponents.

    I've decided on using mapfinder to get commerce, but not going with a 'mapfinder start'. My capital has riverWheat, FloodP x 2, desert-gold, and gold.
    It does also have 2 more gold just outside for 4 total.
    The rest is completely forested, so there is no way I can get Horse/Copper if I SIP :(, but that tile is not a PH, and I can move to a PH.
     
  20. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

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    Well, I guess I like to "stir the pot" a bit but in reality, I'm also usually interested when one person (WT) claims a finish date that doesn't even compute with someone else (Seraiel)... especially when the someone else is also a ver accomplished player. I've never played on these settings and doubt that I'd even be able to win at all so I have no clue what's possible but I like to see the limits pushed which typically provides a learning experience for all!!
     

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