G-Major 134

[Mitchum]

Nicely done, WT. I don't play Deity but I didn't think pre T250 was possible.

 

[WastinTime]

I wonder if WastinTime has some sneaky trait with the Ais, because HA-rushes against hill-cities usually fail unless one has very high numbers, and then his luck with the diplomatic relations, not to forget, that he also needed to be a land-target for 6 of them!

There were not a lot of hills cities in the south which is where I did my 'late game' wars. And you don't need to take every city, just enough to get them to capitulate. So ignore the hills cities if you can.

My game has several sneaky moves. To get Louis as a vassal, I just had to build 1 settler. I plopped him down between 2 Louis cities so I could get 8 adjacent land tiles. That made him a 'land target' and he peacefully joined my empire Then I liberated that useless city to him.

I did the same trick with the Ottomans. They need to be 'Pleased' to peace vassal, so I did them first...or early at least.

DeGaulle was fun. I never even defogged his land. He was backward and sent a huge stack to attack someone else far away. I ambushed them in the open fields and he capitulated a turn or two later.

 

[WastinTime]

Nicely done, WT. I don't play Deity but I didn't think pre T250 was possible.

When I first started to play I was also worried my T250 prediction was off, not so much because it's Deity -- It's the large and, more importantly, highlands that is the real challenge.

Thx to Seraiel for the gauntlet suggestion, and shulec for the scenario (assuming he tweaked the suggestion). I never thought I would have played a game like this, and I would not have if it weren't for the dirty tricks we learned in the last SG, Mitchum.

I like my sammies with spicy mustard.

 

[WastinTime]

deleted

 

[Seraiel]

I just became aware of the fact, that WastinTime's 1110 BC Conquest on Highlands beat the Incan game by Moonsinger .

Now when can we read the writeup Wastin, you know that we're all waiting for it ^^ .

 

[WastinTime]

Now when can we read the writeup Wastin, you know that we're all waiting for it ^^ .

I chose cylindrical wrap. Mostly because I thought most people don't realize it's an option and just play flat by default. It was gonna be one of my secret moves, but I ended up discussing it openly. I don't think I explained my reasoning. As I said before, distance cost is 50% higher, so it sounds like a bad idea. The obvious advantage is the ability to access the 'next' AI with your army. You don't get stuck in a corner. Another thing you might not have noticed is that the AI get squeezed (slightly) closer to you. Think about a flat map: One AI can start, or put cities, right next to the west map edge and another on the East. With Cylindrical they can't be that close together. So when the map generates, the AI are all squeezed in away from what would be the flat-map edges. My secret is...and I may be imagining it...but I thought it also put the squeeze on the AI from north to south too. So I felt there would be less AI up in the far north. Didn't prove that tho.

I scattered most of the writeup around this thread. Starting with this post.
Maybe I left a few things for the reader to deduce. For example, that post says how Joao has my horse in his first ring and that makes him the first target. I move on to Gandhi around T50 and I have 4 cities T90. Well, I left out how I managed to get all that done and the chariots rolling.
I grew to work my golds, so warriors were built slowly after the first worker-stealer was rushed out. Then, with BW, I chopped and whipped to bring my stack up to 11-12 warriors (I figured 8 should be enough, but didn't want to gamble).
That's how I got Joao's capital soon after BronzeWorking.

 

[WastinTime]

I just became aware of the fact, that WastinTime's 1110 BC Conquest on Highlands beat the Incan game by Moonsinger .
.

That was my goal. I actually didn't beat it by much tho in terms of turns.
Note: Moonsinger's 580 BC is 242 turns.
It looks like my 1110 BC is 100's of year faster, but it's only 3 turns faster (T239).

This is another case where the BTS timeline is strangely out of balance with vanilla.

 

[Seraiel]

lol, a Warrior Rush on Deity. Well done ^^

 

[WastinTime]

My writeup continued with this post.

Again, I left it to the reader to ask me about my 'emergency procedures' I used to get thru HBR and math.

I was on my way to HorsebackRiding and my economy was collapsing. To save some money (along with all the other benefits), I did my city gift trick described here.

Hot Tip

Here's a game saver.
I only had like 50 gold left and I was burning -15 gpt at 100% wealth. My units were going to strike soon! and I just finished a war. I'm healing and I'm far, far from another target. I have no way to get capture gold. I'm trying to just get thru Math so I can Oracle Currency and stablize the game. But right now, I can't build wealth. Can't trade for money. There is no wonder fail-gold to gather. I can't, or don't want, to give away any more cities. The AI have 4, so they won't take cities. It's shocking how you can be so close to finishing Math, but you just can't reach it with the slider stuck at 0%. How can I get enough money to finish math?

Spoiler :

This trick works on any speed, but it's extremely effective on Marathon.
You need a size 2 city, preferably with a granary. You build most of a warrior, or if it's an extreme emergency, just put 1 hammer into it. Then whip it.

Example: You have 29/30 in a warrior.
(whip from size 2 to 1, your lame size 1 city is only doing 1 hammer/turn)
120/30 warrior

You get a Warrior, 30 hammers overflow and 60 gold!
Your cost: only 36 food to re-grow the city (and some whip anger) (worst case, you whipped without a granary (72 food)).

Bonus gold: (throw in a chop on the same turn you whip)
Get an extra 60 gold (90 if you have Math...I didn't)

 

[Seraiel]

I knew that Warrior's whip overflow is converted to , but I always asked myself if this only works for whip-overflow, or if a strong city on i. e. quick-speed also produces money because of producing more than needed.

Maybe you know the answer to that.

 

[WastinTime]

I always asked myself if this only works for whip-overflow, or if a strong city on i. e. quick-speed also produces money because of producing more than needed.

Maybe you know the answer to that.

Sure, the problem is, warriors are 10h and 10h overflow, so 20h whip only about 10 gold. As you said tho, a stronger city could get 15-20 gold.

And it's really hard to get emergency gold when you only can put 1 hammer into a warrior.

 

[Seraiel]

I read the initial part of your player log. Saw that you conquered 2 or 3 Civs before 2000 BC and than got a late 1700 BC Oracle. Having in mind that you also found AH + Agri in Huts, that's really a lot of luck you had in that game. If I needed to guess the chance at scoring Oracle alone at that date on a 14 AI map, I'd say below 10% after my most recent experiences.

I think I need to change my playstyle. Would you advise Warrior-rushes on any map implying Deity difficulty?

Sera

 

[WastinTime]

I read the initial part of your player log. Saw that you conquered 2 or 3 Civs before 2000 BC and than got a late 1700 BC Oracle. Having in mind that you also found AH + Agri in Huts, that's really a lot of luck you had in that game. If I needed to guess the chance at scoring Oracle alone at that date on a 14 AI map, I'd say below 10% after my most recent experiences.

I think I need to change my playstyle. Would you advise Warrior-rushes on any map implying Deity difficulty?

Sera

Oracle was not lucky. Only a couple AI had Priesthood and those were the ones I beat on. I think I had plenty of time left to get it even later.

RE: warriors
I do think that warrior rushes might be the way to go. If you look at hammers invested, it's a good deal. Not sure how good it will be on other speeds. Certainly on Marathon, it's a no-brainer.
8 dead warriors : 240 hammers
settler: 300 hammers

And, most importantly, you get a city often size 3, 4+ and has improvements.
Don't forget the 1-2 free workers that come along too.

This might be the new, abusive way to start every game with any leader. Inca not required. Doesn't matter if you're playing culture, etc. It's just a good start.

 

[Seraiel]

Oracle was lucky, because the AIs that had Priesthood were the ones you beat on. I've really played very many starts on larger maps lately, and Oracle 2500 BC to 2200 BC happened in 9/10 cases. You just somehow seem to have a hidden contract with the AIs, because they so often do what helps you. This doesn't mean, that you haven't got very high skill and that especially the new things which you try ain't truely amazing.

 

[WastinTime]

OI've really played very many starts on larger maps lately, and Oracle 2500 BC to 2200 BC happened in 9/10 cases. You just somehow seem to have a hidden contract with the AIs, because they so often do what helps you. This doesn't mean, that you haven't got very high skill and that especially the new things which you try ain't truely amazing.

Other maps sure, but did you really see Oracle going before 1700 on Highlands? Dense, clustered, Large Seas Highlands?

You and I have played quite a few large games (score, space, etc.) and we can usually Oracle something T150 safely. That used to be the standard target we both aimed for IIRC. It never felt like a gamble at 2000 BC.
And those games were not Highlands.

But now that I think about it, you're probably right. That was a bit late. It just didn't feel lucky since I knew no one was close to beating me to it. A couple other AI actually had priesthood, but espionage told me Oracle was not in the works.

 

[Seraiel]

I've actually already seen 27xx BC Oracle on Dense, Ridgelines, Large Seas Highlands by Isabella. There's even a screenshot of it in the forums, because I needed to rant after that ^^ .

I remember that in my Big & Smalls games, T150 was safe in about 50% of the cases. I really remember the desperation of having given up about half of the games because of Oracle, I remember certain maps on which the Inca-rush went especially well and then the message of Oracle.

As I said, hidden contract with the AIs ^^

 

[Seraiel]

And what is also great luck, is that Joao started so close to you, and that his Worker moved on the tile where your Warrior waited so early. I've played numerous games with Worker-stealing lately, and a Worker-steal before T50 is not garantueed! T13 however, is again exceptional lucky.

 

[Seraiel]

Learned something from your game again:

1. What I think is a weak start (1 Food, 2 FPs, 1 Plains-Gold 1 Desert Gold) can be good enough, it's other things that are more important, i. e. Joao having no Hills-cities.

2. You research HBR before Writing! I always went Agri -> AH -> Writing -> Maths -> Trade for Alpha -> HBR, which delays Horse Archers a lot.

Thx that you uploaded the 2500 BC save

Btw., what do those cryptic signs that you choose as your name mean? Some abbreviations I can guess, but I always wonder why you don't play by the name of WastinTime! Maybe your name is what confuses the AIs ^^ .

 

[WastinTime]

For a gauntlet, I just use 'M134' for example.
I think you're talking about other games. I abbreviate the leader, size, maptype, speed, and VC (in that order) usually. That way, if I browse thru my save folder, I can identify the game easier.

 

[Seraiel]

For a gauntlet, I just use 'M134' for example.
I think you're talking about other games. I abbreviate the leader, size, maptype, speed, and VC (in that order) usually. That way, if I browse thru my save folder, I can identify the game easier.

Funny, I do almost the same with the only difference, that I have lots of subfolders in my saves folder, and each folder is simply named / non-abbreviated after the leader, the finish-date and the map-type .