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G-Major 144

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by lymond, Feb 25, 2016.

  1. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    I see a huge difference between your game, WT, and those of Seraiel and Pangaea. You had your basic game strategy mapped out more or less to the nth degree in advance. The in-game adjustments you've been making are all aligned to your basic strategy. Seraiel and Pangaea are still evolving their basic strategy (perhaps to varying degrees, I don't know really) with a primary focus on learning and fine-tuning their strategy. That means you could play any reasonable map to conclusion, whereas they are likely to want to rinse and repeat multiple times, hopefully improving their basic strategy each time. So if they feel like their strategy isn't improving, then why bother to rinse and repeat another time.

    So feedback can be generalized to take two forms: 1) helping to evolve basic strategy, and 2) helping with in-game adjustments.

    I incidentally have considered WT's feedback to be forthright and generous at every turn, but I'd have to re-read the thread to evaluate whether the feedback was more focused on basic strategy or in-game adjustments.

    Just my 2 cents. :)
     
  2. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    When did you get your GE? 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc GP?

    In regards to previous post and sharing - I mentioned earlier I was curious about game breaking method, however, if I were playing I certainly wouldn't share it until after the Gauntlet (along with many other aspects of the game). After all, it's a competition and you're supposed to use you're own ingenuity and planning to obtain the best possible results.

    Then again, even if I knew every dirty game secret in the world I lack the execution and math to be competitive on the most elite playing field.
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Thx LC. I felt I was doing pretty good on sharing too, but I clearly was not satisfying my friends/competitors with the type of info they desire, so let me know what I could do to bring the social back. I'm finding this game to be one of the most enjoyable ever. I wish I could convince more to play, but I'd at least like it to be a pleasant experience for all in the end.
     
  4. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    GE? none. Not going for Mining Inc. That'll be a question for my follow-up space race game. Actually, I don't recall, but I might have gotten a GE. If I did, I just burned it on a golden age.

    and thx, I appreciate your opinion on the sharing.
     
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    If you meant a GE for 1-turn Kremlin. It's not needed. I just did a triple whip cascade and chopped 6. The city had 13 forests if I didn't want to do the whip thing.
    I settled the 'kremlin city' about 100 turns ago with that plan in place.
     
  6. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    Muahahahaha!!! Marathon!! and Huge!!. Enough said.

    Still enjoy following :D.

    edit: What were the cascades? As I've said,my Math is horrible so I probably would have been worried about too many hammers/overflow from the cascades and chops resulting in gold overflow instead of every hammer going into the intended build. I do that more often than I like to admit lol (wasting hammers into gold, on accident!).

    When I need a guaranteed GE I often times do something like Academy 1st GS and then use The Mids/HG and NE for my 2nd GP. Can mess up dilution later though heh.
     
  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    It sounds scary, but unless your machine is too slow/old to handle it, you should try it. The map feels a lot smaller once you get Engineering and units move 6 tiles/turn. 9 tiles/turn for some generals :) You have to ignore 50% of the map until Astronomy.
     
  8. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    WastinTime has offered some tips of a more general nature, like benefits with gifted away cities, and a few other snippets. But about his own game, preciously little apart from indirectly revealing his pop, research speed, and things like that. When two of the three participants are willingly sharing just about anything happening, I don't think it's particularly strange that we eventually got fed up of the one-sidedness of that, and finally stopped sharing too. It's not like I'm going to start over now anyway, so even if WT shared everything he knows, it wouldn't have much impact on my game. But it would make for a more interesting thread, for both participants and lurkers. But it is how it is, and we can just move on without it.

    I can't talk for Seraiel, but for me at least, it's very much a work in progress, because I've never played a Score game before, and very few Marathon games. WT clearly had a strategy in mind from the beginning, probably centred on the new trick, so any reasonable start would be workable. I had several failed attempts, for one reason or another, but now feel like I have a decent game going. As mentioned a million and two times, the economy is a bit of a mess due to over-REXing, but hopefully it will pan out allright. I just don't know. Or maybe everything will crash at some point and I can't finish the game.
     
  9. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    For me it's somewhat both, I have a plan for my game but it isn't a complete plan because my gaming has evolved too far since 2011 when I played the 3.6M game. I share all of that with Pangaea[/u], my secrets, what I'm doing, I give him advice on all situations he gets in and try to answer even all questions.

    You may think that you're sharing Wastin' but Pangaea[/u] and me have exchanged over 50 PMs each (!) and me alone has posted over 300 screenshots of my game of which some are in this thread and the whole rest went towards him and nothing on those screens was scrambled.

    As written I accept that you still keep your game-breaking-tactic, which I assume is not as game-breaking as it seems though imo. because again, twice the cities, twice the beakers, but if you think that your 1 scrambled screenshot and 1-5 lines of advice would make up for players continously, so every evening after they played report about the whole game they played and that in detail, and if you then excuse yourself by that you're too lazy busy to make screens, which is pressing 1 button and uploading them is 1 button, 1 key-combination and again 1 click, but otoh say that you enjoy seeing screens yourself...

    Seriously Wastin...

    I know that you're good, but giving is done because of believing it's good and because of wanting to give and not because someone asked one and then only give half info and the rest follows 4y later when it can not be held secret anymore because someone different discovered it. Those posts that Pangaea and me wrote are work and a maximum of 50% of that work was for our own benefit, I believe it's more like 20% with my posts because I wrote them not in order to get help but for the readers and the other players.

    I really appeal to good side Wastin, if you want this competition to be like this, then it's ok, and if my game gets good enough I already promised that I'll make a writeup about it, and it won't be 1 page long, but your argument that you've already shared more than almost any player in history: You have shared a fragment of what I share and the one that started the sharing and that shares the most is Pangaea[/u], there are days on which I get 8-10 PMs and none is shorter than your longest posts. The proportion doesn't fit Wastin and the argument that you already share a lot is non-suited if your only two competitors are not below the people that you refer to but are at the extreme of the opposite fraction.

    It's ok if you want to play hardcore competetive, but then don't get stupid thoughts that everybody has given up because of you already, this competition isn't over yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
  10. Pollina

    Pollina Emperor

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    100% agree with this.

    For as long as I can remember the norm for HOF gauntlets/challenge games has been that players post their writeups after they’ve submitted their games. Occasionally, there would be players posting screenshots while they were still playing, mostly when asking for game-specific advice. When did this change? Where does this sudden expectation for detailed progress reports come from? I must have missed something. I’ve never done progress reports and don’t think I ever will. I prefer more structured and concise post-game writeups for my own games. I find it hard to write and play at the same time. I like to focus on playing when I play. Having to document all my moves with screenshots would be a huge turn-off for me.

    I also agree with this:
     
  11. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I'd like it if we could simply agree that no one is right or wrong here. Seraiel and Pangaea apparently :love: the screenshot, report-detailed-progress style as witnessed in "Hall of Players" thread and hoped carry over that style to this gauntlet. However, seems like no one else likes to do that or has ever done that in a gauntlet. But nothing wrong with it if you want to. It's also fine to keep your stuff private between you two if you don't feel it's fair that you share this much detail and others don't. But it would be nice if you'd still be a part of the thread. But I guess that's also your choice. Whatever, I should get back to playing the game.

    Again, I enjoy seeing your screenshots (I thought you'd like to hear I appreciate the effort) like in the "Hall of Players". I contribute to the discussion there in my own way, but I have not--and never plan to-- post progress reports like you two do. It's just not my thing. I don't want to add 100 hours to an already long (longest ever) game.
     
  12. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Best I can determine we have a case of differing expectations.

    I think another factor might be that WT's communications presume a level of understanding. I had a college professor once who always had a graduate assistant to help students because he said his own level was so high it interfered with his ability to communicate to students at the appropriate level. In other words, knowing WT pretty well and having a pretty good grasp of the game, I personally feel like I know almost everything he's doing in his game from the little he's said. I'm not certain about the alternative tech path and the trick. Other stuff seems pretty straightforward to me.

    I urge you two, Pangaea and Seraiel, to not have any hard feelings about this sequence of events, if for no other reason than because WastinTime is one of the most unoffensive, good-intentioned people I've interacted with here at CFC. This community is shrinking rapidly and it makes little sense to let some unfortunate, unintended miscommunications come between us.
     
  13. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    SGOTM 23 announced. What will people prioritise now? :hmm:
     
  14. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    This. When I get focused and start playing that's all I want to do (there's stuff to figure out!). Taking the time to even load images seems cumbersome, let alone long write ups. I even find myself completely bypassing post with many images or write ups. Less talk and more play!!! Lol.

    If I do hit a wall and need some help in refining my play or simply have no clue I'll quickly PM someone I think can help. At least that way I'm asking a question and getting a response. Much better than sifting through some 10 pages of images/write ups looking for the genie in the bottle.

    edit:
    Not for me ^. I'm not a big fan of "team" lol. I always liked individual sports better too - all the glory and all the defeat. Then again, I'm only playing HoF challenger right now anyways.
     
  15. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    It's starting to really hit home how absurdly much time is required to get across the finish line. I'm easily spending an hour a turn already now, and have spent over 100 already! :eek2:
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I've just built my first sushi exec. I'm not feeling the drag yet. The last 100 turns were quite enjoyable. I only have 2 AI left which have never been touched. The rest are all bleeding heavily, so at least the war element of the game should not be so taxing during the sushi spread.

    I managed to only have to go up against longbows with 4 AI (counting the 2 I have yet to start on). Only one AI was allowed to get Pikemen. I hope I don't regret that I could have used spies to keep his one Iron resource un-mined.
     
  17. oov

    oov Chieftain

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    I think most players, myself included, will not be able to grasp the depth of this challenge. I really wish top players would stream their games in the open to show us how it's done. Even showing a "failure" would be fun.

    I hope civ 6 has a replay feature much like Blizzard games do now. That way people like WastinTime can post his replay and not have to spend so much time with screenshots if he doesn't want to.

    I've tried many times to replicate even some of the most "easy" deity wins and have fallen short. For example: a game where WastinTime wins a religious victory turn 48. I can't even get close to it. The player log and final save do help, but not enough to show me how to play it correctly.

    Wish we could just "replay" these games like you can old chess games. Turn-by-turn. I may never be a chess master but seeing some of these games played out helps me appreciate a great player!
     
  18. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Back in the days of Civ III there was a collective endeavor to create logs of play up to 1000 BC. I arrived after that had stopped but read some of SirPleb's logs and they were incredibly useful. Gave me some basics that are still valid today.
     
  19. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I've been reading everything that's been written, taking it all in and playing my game in the dark. I expect to top 12M when I'm done! :mischief:

    It's normal that people expect the same behavior of others that they do themselves. As clearly pointed out, we all play this game differently and what is fun for one person is a chore for others.

    As a personal example, Jastrow and I spent a ton of time off-line doing detailed comparisons of our Space victories for xOTM games. We would exchange saves at key points (after the xOTM was over, of course), compare progress, discuss strategy/tactics, etc. For the most part, I did a majority of the actual comparisons, posted detailed data, shared screen shots, etc. Jastrow was a willing participant and discussed the results and debated strategies but I did the majority of the up-front work. But it worked for us because I enjoyed doing that part of it and we both learned in the end. Jastrow is a BEAST at Space games now and of course, I deserve 100% of the credit for that! :lol:

    Dhoom and I did a lot of the same stuff off-line but in that case, we both did about the same amount of up-front work (correct me if I'm wrong, Dhoom). Again, we both did what we liked to do and we both learned a lot from each other... or maybe I just learned a lot from him!

    In any event, Serial is known for detailed, long-winded write ups of his games and we've all come to love them. :pat: Based on what I've seen, he likes doing it and we all benefit from the work he does.

    I haven't been as involved in CFC lately so I have less experience with Pangaea but from what I have seen, he seems to share the progress of his game in detail as more of a learning experience for himself. Yes, we all learn along with him as he seeks advice from the more advanced players and then implements that feedback into his game until the next stopping point.

    WT is more like just about everyone else in CFC with respect to how much detailed information he shares about his games (i.e. long write ups, tons of screen shots, etc.). He does so occasionally (like his fastest Space victory) but it is not his norm. At the same time, he probably shares his wisdom and advice more than anyone else when asked for help or when questions come up in threads (even in games he's not playing). He may not write a 10,000 word post laying it all out but he does give a ton of valuable information that helps all of us.

    In short, expecting everyone to play (and enjoy) this game in the exact same way makes little sense. Also, to expect everyone to post detailed info about their games to the same extent as two of the most prolific game sharers isn't really fair.

    My $0.02 $2.00.
     
  20. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Would just like to point out that although I do ask questions that I genuinely wonder about for my own games, the long updates are more intended for others, so that others can see and learn about these types of games too. I see these 'special' games as a great opportunity to learn more about the game, which is why I share a lot about my progress, and why I find it disappointing that others don't want to do that. This isn't just a competition to me, but a good opportunity to both teach others, and learn more myself.

    But I guess it would be progress if the 2nd post in a gauntlet thread is the results announcement *shrug*
     

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