[BTS] G-Major 164 - WvO, Deity, Space Colony - Deadline September 30th 2019

[Noble Zarkon]

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While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

Settings:

• Victory Condition: Space Colony (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Deity
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Large
• Speed: Epic
• Map Type: Rain Forest
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Civ: Netherlands (Willem Van Oranje)
• Opponents: Must include Aztec (Montezuma), Celt (Boudica), Egypt (Ramesses II), England (Churchill), Ethiopia (Zara Yaqob), France (Napoleon), Mali (Mansa Musa), Sumeria (Gilgamesh)
• Version: 3.19.005
• Date: 16th July to 30th September 2019

Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

 

[Anysense]

I wish there was no set map type. Rainforest is not exactly the best map for space and combined with not the top tier leader, it is going to produce rather underwhelming results. I have no idea how to compensate for almost complete absence of forests. Expansion and development are going to be very slow. If there was enough rice for strong Sushi, then strike might be the answer. B&S would be interesting to try strike.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Rainforest was actually requested as being very suitable for this challenge, I'll see if I can find the link.

I would have thought WvO would be strong - Financial and Creative are two powerful traits and the Dike will come into play in a long running game like this.

 

[Anysense]

I found that post
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-iv-hof-update-discussion.642997/#post-15425336
I quite agree with kovacsflo, Rainforest is a very trick map script.
The trouble is there are hardly any forests on this map, only desert and jungle, which with Willem not being imperialistic and having no UU for fast expansion is a bit of problem. Clearly, financial has a lot of potential here, but I'm still struggling to figure out how to use it.

 

[Anysense]

I can say that traditional 'get to the domination limit ASAP' approach does not work with Willem - he is not the right leader for this job.

Spoiler Willem vs Julius :

A bit embarrassing, really.

It might be more sensible to try peaceful expansion with the minimum number of opponents. Expand to ~15 cities, get Steel circa 100BC (better 200BC), stomp a few AIs and quickly expand to ~40 cities then focus on research. I think this is what I will try next, unless I have a sudden brainwave.

 

[lymond]

If you want to know how to win Space on rainforest, check out Kait's win on BOTM 176. A date that not even a HOF game has beat, pretty sure best ever recorded. Rainforest can be very strong for Space, and leader should not matter.

 

[Anysense]

If you want to know how to win Space on rainforest, check out Kait's win on BOTM 176. A date that not even a HOF game has beat, pretty sure best ever recorded. Rainforest can be very strong for Space, and leader should not matter.

Yeah, 1330AD on normal speed is very impressive. There is a difference, though - Pangaea kindly replaced all the jungle with forests! That's exactly my problem, there are very few forests on a normal rainforest map.

 

[kovacsflo]

I found that post
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-iv-hof-update-discussion.642997/#post-15425336
I quite agree with kovacsflo, Rainforest is a very trick map script.
The trouble is there are hardly any forests on this map, only desert and jungle, which with Willem not being imperialistic and having no UU for fast expansion is a bit of problem. Clearly, financial has a lot of potential here, but I'm still struggling to figure out how to use it.

I have been trying to come up with a good finish date since the gauntlet has been launched, but it's not so easy. There should be a balance between food resources, available river tiles (especially flood plains) and hammers. Also, it is important to have weaker AI-s near you (Ramesses or Napoleon), but Mansa Musa can help you a lot if he is stronger.

The best leader would be Pacal, as while food is not a big deal, health is. You must have corn and wheat.

 

[Anysense]

You must have corn and wheat.

You also must have several happiness recources. Otherwise you can't whip much, and it is crucial to work as many cottages as possible. Floodplains are very useful here too, particularly because they usually cover a large area. That is if you see a few flooplains there are several more nearby, so you get a lot of jungle-free land with 3 tiles. Unfortunately, map generator seems to be rather less generous when you set less than maximum number of opponents. Or may be, I just got bad luck with the last batch of maps.

 

[Anysense]

I have been trying to come up with a good finish date since the gauntlet has been launched, but it's not so easy.

What finish date do you consider a good one? I'm still struggling to break 1500

 

[Anysense]

It takes so much time to find a good map, and when you found what you need, the game is ruined by some incurably moronic foul animal. Certainly, Gilgamesh could not DoW his worst enemy - Gandhi. No, he had to cross the map to attack me. Now I have to give Leiden to Churchill and cold whip units everywhere, including The Hague (meaning no GS for academy). On top of it all, Boudica has time to connect her iron.

Spoiler :

 

[Kaitzilla]

What finish date do you consider a good one? I'm still struggling to break 1500

Rainforest can be quite difficult to get a great space finish date.
1500 would be truly excellent.

Rainforest also tends to be missing a few resources.
Whale, Fish, Crab, Clam, Wheat, and Sheep are all missing.
Corn is very rare, with only 1 or 2 on a large map.


Jungle is harsh.
Max ai with both Indias and conquering cleared land is probably best strategy.
Deity AI chop twice as fast as player.

Player chops jungle in 4 turns on Epic speed, 3 turns with Steam Power or Hagia Sophia, and 2 turns with Serfdom added on top.
In theory Deity Gandhi with Fast Worker, Steam Power, and Serfdom could chop a jungle in 1 turn.
Not a single AI has a favorite civic of Serfdom, so good luck getting them to adopt it.

 

[Anysense]

Yeah, Gandhi would have been excellent. No Financial is a shame, of course, but Philosophical with abundant food would be great for bulbing one's way to cuirs or cannons. And fast workers would be magnificent. I learned how good they are when I tried Gandhi for AP games. It's a shame really that Philosophical can replace Industrious only on larger maps - no time for Math on smaller ones.

 

[Anysense]

Dsepite the mishap in the beginning the game is shaping up fine. Of course, Boudica built tonnes of metal units, but she also built academy and a dozen of cottages in her capital for me. Good girl! Gilgamesh is furious because I bribed four AIs on him, just to keep them all busy. Still, open borders because he likes my vassals.

Nobody has Education yet. So, the plan is to lib Communism (6 turns without bulb), switch to hammer economy, build some cannons and kill a couple more AIs. Probably Ramesses first - he is my last neighbour who is not my vassal - then I can feel safe.

14xx seems possible, what do you think?

Spoiler :

 

[Kaitzilla]

Dsepite the mishap in the beginning the game is shaping up fine. Of course, Boudica built tonnes of metal units, but she also built academy and a dozen of cottages in her capital for me. Good girl! Gilgamesh is furious because I bribed four AIs on him, just to keep them all busy. Still, open borders because he likes my vassals.

Nobody has Education yet. So, the plan is to lib Communism (6 turns without bulb), switch to hammer economy, build some cannons and kill a couple more AIs. Probably Ramesses first - he is my last neighbour who is not my vassal - then I can feel safe.

14xx seems possible, what do you think?

Spoiler :

View attachment 533869

I'm not sure.

If I remember right, the lack of health resources on rainforest really starts to bite once Coal Plants + Factories come online.

There won't be many Size 20 cities.
There also won't be fat trade routes or crazy corporations.

Hmm, will you be using Communism mainly for State Property workshops/watermills, or will you pair it with Biology and Kremlin to whip an absurdly large army?

You seem to have most of the Deity space records now, so just crunch the math before making any big decision and I'm sure you will be fine Anysense.

 

[Anysense]

I'm not sure.
If I remember right, the lack of health resources on rainforest really starts to bite once Coal Plants + Factories come online.
There won't be many Size 20 cities.
There also won't be fat trade routes or crazy corporations.

Oh yeah, no wheat on the whole map. And there is no seafood either, thats -5 compared to a normal mapscript! A hint for anyone who want to play this: select a map script which allows to change sea level, pick high sea level and then choose Rainforest. Sea level is locked at 'high' now, adding some 300 water tiles compared to 'low', ensuring presence of some seafood on the map.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Oh yeah, no wheat on the whole map. And there is no seafood either, thats -5 compared to a normal mapscript! A hint for anyone who want to play this: select a map script which allows to change sea level, pick high sea level and then choose Rainforest. Sea level is locked at 'high' now, adding some 300 water tiles compared to 'low', ensuring presence of some seafood on the map.

It does add 200 sea tiles, but no seafood in my experience.

 

[Anysense]

Apparently there is about 50% chance to have clam, but the fish and crabs are extremely rare. Still, its worth trying, for even one extra is good and there is enough land even with high see level; 2200 tiles is more than Willem can use - that would be to much even for Romans.

 

[kovacsflo]

I haven't seen any fish, crab, whale or wine on a Rainforest map, all the other resources are normally there, though sometimes there are just 1-2 copies of each on the entire map.

For whatever reason, clam only appears next to a coastal starting position. Wheat normally comes near a desert.

Silver and fur are relatively aboundant.

Most of the aluminium are somewhere in the deserts as the jungle doesn't have a lot of yellow or (especially) white hills.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Oh yeah, no wheat on the whole map. And there is no seafood either, thats -5 compared to a normal mapscript! A hint for anyone who want to play this: select a map script which allows to change sea level, pick high sea level and then choose Rainforest. Sea level is locked at 'high' now, adding some 300 water tiles compared to 'low', ensuring presence of some seafood on the map.

Bah, got a good map and good rush, but no wheat on the whole map.