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[BTS] G-Major 165 - Egypt, Prince, Time - Deadline October 28th 2019

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Noble Zarkon, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

    Settings:
    • Victory Condition: Time (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
    • Difficulty: Prince
    • Starting Era: Any
    • Map Size: Small
    • Speed: Any
    • Map Type: Big and Small
    • Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
    • Civ: Egypt
    • Opponents: Must include Ottoman (Mehmed II), France (De Gaulle), India (Gandhi), Mali (Mansa Musa)
    • Version: 3.19.005
    • Date: 16th July to 28th October 2019
    Must not play as Inca.
    The highest score wins.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  2. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    This one feels interesting.

    Might try the overshooting strategy that one genius discovered years ago.
    Keep whipping the Sushi cities down to 1 pop every turn.
    Then let them grow at the end to exceed the maximum possible population indicated by food.

    Though now that I think about it, whipping every turn in every city might be challenging.
    If they all produce, they are not building research!

    Anyway, future tech 100 becomes very useful.
    Keeping the AI from winning while in permanent strike would be fun with a bunch of 1pop cities.

    Just need a maniac who takes 90% of the map and only avoids dom. because the AI has a few 20 pop cities while the player only has 1 pop cities.

    100% of the sushi resources!
    Praying the AI doesn't whip and wins the player the game!
    Then some gifts before the growth to squeak back under the land limit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  3. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    May be you can just get yourself a strong vassal and reduce the only rival to 1 foodless island?
    What game speed are you going to use?
     
  4. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

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    If you grab the wonders to prevent a culture VC, I don't think a prince AI can win before the end of time.
     
  5. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    What game speed?
    I guess it depends on granary mechanics mainly.

    With an +11:food: supply at Size 1, constantly whipping a city from size 2 to size 1 will mean the city will forever be stuck at 22/22:food:.
    The city grows to Size 2 (11/24:food:), adds the +11:food: from the surplus, and gives a Size 2 city with 22/24:food:.
    The whip reduces the city to Size 1 (22/22:food:) and a surplus is never created.
    So normal speed means I need more than +11:food: from sushi to even begin building up food.

    Marathon is even harsher with the 66:food: bin at Size 1.
    A 33:food: supply means that a surplus is never created.
    Marathon gets 3x as many game turns, but the food bin is 3 times as large.
    So marathon speed means I need more than +33:food: from sushi to even begin building up food.


    Assume a +40:food: supply since the game map is small.
    That implies max city size of 40 population.
    Whatever crazy food total I pile up before I stop whipping, it needs to grow a city way higher than 40 population without working any tiles.

    Quick speed might be best now that I look.


    The constant whipping means that even +25:) happiness from colosseum/theater/broadcast tower and 100%:culture: slider means there will be too much anger to work any tiles.
    That is a big hit on food.
    1 future tech per turn happiness is countered by 1 whip every turn.

    Warrior whips and then workboats as long as all coastal. Will need Kremlin.

    Plus don't want 3 cities to hit 50,000:culture: from sushi and win a culture victory, so that is a hard ceiling.
    Each +1:food: from Sushi yields +4:culture: per turn I think.

    The world's most complicated math problem!


    I will probably snowball 1AI on a 1 tile island in siberia most likely.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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  6. Swordnboard

    Swordnboard Chieftain

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    Glad you are thinking about it, Kait. I'm happy to contribute on the theoretical side, but don't think I can muster up the sheer number of hours to try. Although, perhaps this is an opportunity to pioneer computer-assisted HOF games...

    Here is the thread for those that missed it the first time around
     
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  7. Swordnboard

    Swordnboard Chieftain

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    Some quick upshots:
    • You don't quite have to do 1 future tech per turn. Since whip anger slowly degrades, you would only need 90 future techs per 100 turns on normal speed. Also, especially on the faster speeds, whipping every 2 turns (40 future techs per 100 turns on normal) isn't horrible if you can't keep up with the happiness needs.
    • On quick and normal speed, it helps to work all of your 3-food or better tiles instead of whipping them away. On epic a 3-food tile seems about a wash, and on marathon even 4-food tiles don't seem worthwhile.
    • Whipping missionaries is really strong. Generates massive failgold (maybe enough to stay out of strike), and allows building research in all but a couple of your cities every turn by taking the missionaries out of the queue. Can be cold-whipped for 1 pop on marathon, could be cold-whipped for 2 pop on other speeds.
    As for game speeds:
    Some preliminary analysis indicates that culture will be a problem. Even at 40FPT (54 sushi resources, so more could maybe be possible), we have a hard cap of 156 turns of sushi on quick (312 on normal, 468 on epic, 937 on marathon) or the city will become legendary. This is significantly less than the total sushi-turns we would be capable of running on these speeds.
    Therefore, normal speed appears better than quick. The quirk of only requiring 25,000 culture for legendary on quick speed, while neat for cultural victories, is way too restrictive here. Even though quick allows for a higher food bank to food surplus ratio, the lost turns are simply too hard to overcome.
    Spoiler Numbers for Nerds :

    I took the theoretical cap number of food-banking turns, multiplied by the food banked per turn, and finally adjusted for game speed (multiply by 1.5 for quick, divide by 1.5 for epic, divide by 3 for marathon). This is a rough estimate for the adjusted total food capacity (ATFC). Assuming sushi food (40 fpt) is the only food banked, and whips are done 2-1 every turn, quick has an ATFC of 7722, whereas normal has an ATFC of 9048. For reference, epic speed comes in at an underwhelming 7176 and marathon a putrid 2186.
    Spoiler Nuances for Nerdier Nerds :

    • The ATFC numbers above don't take into account the turns needed to grow the city. This is another advantage for normal speed over quick, given our target populations are quite similar.
    • Other sources of food surplus (i.e. worked tiles) also tip the balance towards slower speeds, as they can be worked over the longer game and increase the bank rate without contributing to culture.
    • Epic speed could be considered with a really massive sushi (Say, +60 food), which isn't very feasible on small but could be possible on larger maps. It clocks in at an ATFC of 8944 vs. 10192 for Normal and 8268 for quick (Marathon is still very behind with 5625), and the other nuances may push things closer to even.
    • General rule of thumb: the slower the speed, the easier the setup. This is true for early-game development, executive spread speeds, spamming the map with settlers, colony domination limit tricks, etc., etc.

     
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  8. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I won't be trying any of these new fangled tactics but I wish you guys well.

    My game is going well, it's turn 300 (500BC), I have 10 cities - all the other AI are dead except Gandhi and his one city is nothing to write home about :mischief:

    I had 3 AIs on my continent with Mansa on a separate one, he founded Hinduism & Judaism, built Stonehenge and used the subsequent Great Prophet on the Temple of Solomon - so Timbuktu will be my Wall Street city :goodjob:

    My capital has wet corn, cows and 2 gems, I found horses close by to the South. Built 4 cities before unleashing the War Chariots and was pleased with how it turned out. Built the GW for Wonder Bread to keep me going during the war but the Great Lighthouse has just come online and currency will follow shortly so should be ok from here.

    Civ4ScreenShot0099.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0100.JPG
     
  9. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Ah, you invented it, thanks SwordnBoard! :goodjob:

    Thanks for doing the math on Quick speed.
    I agree Normal speed is best for this.

    Yes, Culture from Sushi is the main problem.
    I used map finder to test out some arid Big and Small maps to count Sushi resources. (Future Era for Satellite tech to reveal map, Map Finder was programmed to save maps that found 1 fish in 999 tile range)
    Spoiler :

    On 11 maps I got 83, 78, 63, 73, 71, 72, 66, 79 60, 79, and 63 Sushi resources. (Rice, Clam, Crab, Fish)
    75 resources on a Big and Small map gives +57:food:, +225:culture:, and -128:gold: per turn.
    Legendary Culture is reached after 50,000/225 = 223 turns. :sad:

    I looked at Cereal Mills, but the 11 maps on Arid only had 7, 9, 4, 5, 11, 8, 10 ,10 ,6, 7, and 8 Cereal Mill resources.
    10 resources gives +12:food: which is only enough to stockpile +1:food: per turn.
    I tried the halt growth button with 500/22:food: in the bin, and it caused the huge food overflow to vanish the next turn when it became 22/22:food: :cry:
    Cereal Mills is not an option I think.

    Whipping every single turn with a +57:food: surplus stockpiles +46:food: each turn and after 150 turns yields 6900:food:!
    A spreadsheet indicates that working 0 tiles, this allows the city to grow to Size 86 after 85 turns.
    Spoiler :




    150 turns stockpiling food +84 turns growing = 234 turns, so we've waited too long to start growing and reached legendary after 223 turns oops!
    The spreadsheet will be required once the number of sushi resources and known.

    Each city will need to have column E manually adjusted from Size 1 to Size 20 to account for all the tiles it can work to figure out the max population it can reach and the appropriate time to cease whipping.
    Working a Fish tile at Size 1 would mean I need to type in a -4. :hmm:
    Would be impossible to calculate for 100 cities without a computer + spreadsheet

    Sushi culture is the main bottleneck.

    Borrowing a quote from the food banking thread, whipping from 4 to 2 population is a great idea to only have half the whip anger. :)
    It loses 1.5:food: per turn compared to whipping every turn, but working the 20 tiles in the big fat cross can add 40:food: per turn during the 85 turn growth phase.

    Plus, the missionary idea :goodjob: really gels with this since they can be 2 pop whipped cold with just Kremlin (which won't obsolete if Fiber Optics is avoided)
    I like the idea of the capital completing the 3rd missionary every 2 turns and causing a huge overflow gold payoff from BUFFY mod.
    Strike will kill the other 2 missionaries, so might have to complete missionaries in 3 cities. :hmm:
    Can spend all the gold with Universal Suffrage.

    Bottom line, need roughly Future tech 80 to handle anger and unhealthy problems.
    Higher Sushi amount is best. The stockpiling phase is shorter and slightly more food/culture is stored that way.

    Need to only connect 1 fish and then spread Sushi to every city. (Will have to pillage all my own seafood to do this)
    Pack the cities in as tight as possible.
    Keep the culture down to +3:culture: per turn after the Sushi spread.
    Then lay down 70 workboats on the same turn to start skyrocketing food on the appropriate turn.

    Probably have enough room to use WastinTime's patented method to reach 76% dom limit with the AI creating 16 colonies.
    (Snowball 1 AI on an island, give 4 cities on the mainland, AI founds new colony, capture 3 out of 4 cities, give AI 4 more cities on mainland keeping the new vassal alive, 2nd vassal spawns, continue until snowball AI has 16 1-city vassals)

    Tedious to push the Dom limit from 68% land to 76%, but every bit counts.

    Finally, time to talk about score.
    WT's Arid map is still best.
    Max population gives 5000 points, max land gives 1200??? points for controlling 75% of the land, Max Wonders gives 1000 points, and Max tech gives 2000 points (Finishing Future Tech 1).
    Spoiler :

    The arid map on big and small only needs 976 population to get 5000 points, where as the tropical version has the same amount of land and islands and sushi, but needs 1100 population to give 5000 points.

    Max out techs? of course!

    Max out Wonders? Eh, only 3.2 points per wonder, and each population is 5.12 points, so an extra 195 population is the same points as every single wonder in the game combined.
    Wonders cause a lot of culture, so best to only build them a lot in 1 or 2 cities that will exceed legendary status.


    Finally, construct Forge+Factory+Coal Plant in each city to double Mining Inc?
    Seems like a good idea since Mining Inc. is the only way to start teching when Sushi maxes out and starts a permanent STRIKE.
    Combined with Kremlin, missionaries become a 1 population whip, but that can be fixed by teching Fiber Optics to get rid of Kremlin.
    Removing coal turns off the power plants, but reduces Mining Inc. by 50%.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    If culture is the main problem, wouldn't it be an option to gift away cities in some timely fashion?
    Wonder culture can be handled by gifting wonder-cities away and conquering them, removing culture.

    Also, have the sacrificial altar been considered in this strategy?
     
  11. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    You will never get back the time spent on this :eek:
     
  12. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Ouch, marathon just might be out the score on normal speed with super food overflow after all. :crazyeye:

    Future tech 676 gives an insane amount of score points!
    Check out Seraiel's 3rd highest scoring Time game of all time.
    It has more score from Future Techs than from population.
    http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=26878 (132 hours)
    Spoiler :

    WastinTime has the all-time record of 125,576 points.
    http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=18015 (66 hours)

    Hall of Fame
    http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/

    Each Future tech past the 1st one is worth about 41 or 42 points.
    Each population is about 5.1, so would need 4117 population to make up for 500 future techs.

    Looks like Super overflow with 100 future techs on normal speed beats out 600 future techs on marathon, but it isn't a total blow out. :hmm:

    Can't gift away cities, all 100 or 150 cities will be reach legendary culture at the exact same time.

    Sacrificial Altar would be helpful, ya. :)

    Cough, quite right.
    Even on a small map where sushi spreading can be lazy, the urge for the fastest tech speed possible will create tremendous difficulties when no city should be allowed to produce culture.

    A careful consideration of the time needed should be considered before attempting the super-food overflow attempt for all-time highest SCORE attempt.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  13. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Yes that's generally the case in Time games these days!

    The top Time Score in the HOF for Prince / Small is currently 16,476, the scores for the levels below that are all at least 6k better and I have a score of 40k at Warlord / Small. I expect the current record to be smashed by this gauntlet!
     
  14. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    My head is spinning as to which of these approaches you are advocating (obsoleting The Kremlin or not).


    Working a netted Fish at Size 1 earns you 2 Food from the City Centre square and 6 (with a Lighthouse) Food from the Fish, at a cost of 2 Food from the citizen who exists.

    Working 2 netted Fish at Size 2 earns you 2 Food from the City Centre square and 12 Food from the Fish, at a cost of 4 Food from the citizens who exist.

    So, it stands to reason that you might want to keep track of multiple numbers here, each in different columns:
    1. The number of citizens who exist, whether they are working squares or not, since they will consume Food whether they are earning Food or not
    2. The +2 Food (or rarely, +3 Food if you settle on a G Banana/G Rice/G Corn/G Pig/etc square) that you earn from the City Centre square
    3. The Food that each worked square brings in. 2 netted Fish in a City with a Lighthouse could be written as 6 + 6 = 12, keeping the tabulation math relatively easy by you only needing to count the Food that you see on each square

    In that way, you can count each worked square, such as the Fish, as the amount of Food that you see on the square (5 Food without a Lighthouse or 6 Food with a Lighthouse for the netted Fish, for example).


    If you want to share a spreadsheet on the forums, you can compress it as a .zip file and then you can upload a .zip file as a file attachment to a message here.


    So, no Libraries, no Universities, no Temples (and thus no Apostolic Palace Hammers, no University of Sankore Flasks, and no Spiral Minaret Gold), no Theatres for Happiness, etc. Just getting to Future Tech 1 is going to be a bit of a challenge.

    And, no Monasteries, since their Cultural output does not obsolete. Thus, I am assuming that you're planning on running Organized Religion if you want to be able to create Missionaries.

    Oh, yeah, and definitely don't play as Huayna Capac, to avoid getting +4 Culture from 1000-year-owned Terraces.


    Captured Wonders produce 0 Culture for you. ;)

    That is, if you didn't build the Wonder yourself in the first place. If you recapture a City with a Wonder in it that you built, the Wonder will once again produce Culture.

    Perhaps you should be concerned about Global Warming.

    Maybe you should add Recycling Centres to that list.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  15. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    If Future Techs are worth a lot of points, then could it possibly simply be better to get your tech rate up to 1 tech per turn as fast as possible while making use of Libraries, Universities, Flasks from The University of Sankore, etc?

    It might be worth calculating a "cutoff point," where if you don't get things sufficiently set up by a certain game turn, you abandon the approach as not being one that is able to beat a "traditional" Time Victory of spamming Future Techs.


    Also, does the Difficulty Level or the Game Speed affect the relative amount of points received from a Future Tech versus the points received from a population point, or is that ratio constant?


    In terms of Land Area, I suppose that you'll have to plan to have your Cultural Borders expand to the Refined Cultural radius (one step below Legendary) for every City that you own. It would be unfortunate to have wonderful calculations laid out for avoiding achieving a Cultural Victory only to find yourself accidentally winning a Domination Victory.

    Also, don't get so greedy with Vassal Happiness that you end up turning the last opponent into a Vassal (thereby winning a Conquest Victory).

    Further, if you manage to isolate your only opponent to a single City, watch out that it won't Culture Flip to you. You CAN eliminate an AI this way, thereby again having a way trigger a Conquest Victory.


    If you misclick and accidentally choose to host an election for the Religion Leader or the UN Leader, and you control the Apostolic Palace or the United Nations, is there a way for you to abstain from the vote or will you be forced to choose a Diplomatic Victory (or a Diplomatic Loss)?
     
  16. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Haha, that is a good point. :thumbsup:
    For fastest tech, I'm thinking Cereal Mills to get a big empire with Mining Inc. + Forge + Factory + Coal Plant in every city before T250 seems best.
    Then replace everything with +1:food: per turn Sushi at the appropriate time remembering the failure to spread chance.
    Then crank sushi up to MAX:food: on the correct turn.

    Build Kremlin or not?
    Ugh, it takes like 9000:science: to obsolete Kremlin which is 3/4ths a Future tech.
    I need to think more about Kremlin.

    Didn't know I could upload .zips, thanks.


    Right, culture is the enemy for an attempt like this.
    I'm getting a huge headache thinking about it.
    Fast teching needs a bit of culture.

    Good call, yes global warming is triggered by cities having Forges/Factories/Coal plants.
    Recycling centers would fix it.


    I don't know where the tipping point is for culture poisoning (Stonehenge, Library, University) directly lowering my max population by reducing the turns I can run max sushi vs. more Future techs is. :sad:
    It is hard to calculate what will give the most points.

    At Size 85, each extra population is reducing my food stockpile by 200:food:
    That is 5 turns worth of stockpiling food!
    5 turns of stockpiling food with sushi at +220:culture: per turn is 1100:culture:, so not stockpiling food for 5 turns because I built Libraries and Universities costs me 1 population * total number of cities (150 cities?). 150 population?
    150 population is around 315 points or 7.5 future techs.

    If everything goes well, I will have 0 vassals, and the 1 AI will have just one city.
    Mainland cities that I can't raze will also be given to the 1AI at the end of the game to avoid triggering domination.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  17. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Best way to do that is make it be a city you have gifted them, it won't flip back unless you have "City flipping after capture" turned on.
     
  18. Swordnboard

    Swordnboard Chieftain

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    Looks like with 80 sushi resources, the maintenance cost for a 1-pop city is approximately 140 GPT. This could be reduced to about 60 GPT with free market + courthouses, even lower if we were able to play zulu or holy rome (not applicable for this gauntlet), which seems surmountable by way of missionary failgold + corporate HQ income. Does that mean that STRIKE is not actually necessary here until the growth phase begins, and would this be a significant improvement in our research capacity?
     
  19. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    I need to check of smaller techs are worth less points than Future Techs.
    If they are all worth the same, then completing the whole tree would be worthwhile.

    Yes, Temples and Sankore/AP/etc might pay off. I don't think +1:culture: per turn is too dangerous for 2:science:/2:gold:/2:hammers: for a game that goes to 2050AD.

    Difficulty level only affects the score modifier as far as I know.
    Time games get a x2 multiplier at the end regardless of the game difficulty, but I'm not 100% sure.

    The food super-overflow technique almost requires Normal speed due to food bin/granary mechanics.

    I wouldn't get accidental Dom., I've learned my lesson too many times. :)

    AP owner/ UN leader gets to pick what resolutions to put forward.

    No STRIKE is almost certainly a research capacity boost. :)
    If Missionary fail gold can achieve it, than it it totally worth building Courthouses.

    If there was a STRIKE, it would only be during the growth phase ya.
     
  20. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Unfortunately that's not correct!

     

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