[BTS] G-Major 173 - Aztecs, Warlord, Cultural - Deadline October 27th 2020

[iggymnrr]

Did you ever find stone?

Yes. There was some on an island. Also, if the last warrior rush had gone right instead of left it would have found a warrior defended AI with stone instead of an AI with archers. It was like only two tiles, one with each AI, that couldn't be seen. Given a 50-50 chance ...

 

[iggymnrr]

A state shrine is better than a settled artist. Base culture develops from +4 to +8 in 1000 years. Sistine first makes it +13 then +18 in 1000 years. Even temples go culture bananas: first +1 to +2, then +7 to +12. (Curiously, Sistine's +5 on cathedrals doesn't double like it does for other buildings.) This is base culture so free speech would turn 18 into 36 etc. A normal temple in free speech would go from +1 to +2 while a turbo temple goes from +12 to +24. A screen of the state shrine:

 

[elitetroops]

Yeah, certainly better than a settled artist. It would still have a hard time competing with a culture bomb if the win is early enough. It would need to be a very early shrine with lots of cathedrals to produce 6k culture by 1000AD. I think a date like that should be possible with these settings, although probably not my game with such a weak capital..

When killing off that many, and probably for elite too, what units do you use? Chariots are iffy when the AIs get archers (can happen pretty early), and Axes aren't fantastic either (and slower).

If I had been smart I would have built a few more warriors early to kill a couple more AI. I think it was the coastal start needing workboats that fooled me into not building more. It seems these AI have only one warrior defending capital for quite a while. When I delayed it I really should have went straight for woody II jags since I already teched IW.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

If I had been smart I would have built a few more warriors early to kill a couple more AI.

I'm working on the Challenge Series Time game and came to the same conclusion - it's at Prince and I still managed to kill 4 AIs with warriors!

 

[iggymnrr]

Civil service might be useless here. It wouldn't be a surprise if the Oracle should be used on music. As it was I built Sistine and then, yes and then, teched currency, code of laws and finally civil service. With 18 cities things were a whirlwind of wonder bread activity. Fail gold from wonders I was building, fail gold on wonders in the other hemisphere, and even fail gold on wonders I didn't need but built to cover money I didn't have. Many, many cities were needed. One city in bureaucracy wouldn't do much.

 

[iggymnrr]

The following link explains hut phenomena. And something I've wondered about.

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Tribal_Village_(Civ4)

In the case where an outcome is not valid, the game "rerolls" the outcome up to 10 times until it gets a valid one. If no valid outcome is found the hut just disappears without anything happening.

 

[elitetroops]

Civil service might be useless here. It wouldn't be a surprise if the Oracle should be used on music.

Ideally a culture game should have a capital that benefits greatly from CS. Mine didn't very much, but it's still a benefit even if smaller. As my tests showed warlords AI could potentially snag the Oracle already in 1200BC I have to build it early (got it 1425BC) and have no need for Music yet. Cathedrals or Sistine aren't needed yet in quite a while, I'm sure I have time to tech Music by the time it's time to build them. Also needed CoL badly for a couple of Altars in cities that want to whip a lot more than whip anger would allow them.

Looks like I'll be going for an early state religion shrine here. Both Oracle and SH are in my Xtian holy city that later also will get the Hermitage. This should make the shrine very competitive with the culture output of a GA bomb. Some extra gold can't hurt either.

 

[Pangaea]

If I had been smart I would have built a few more warriors early to kill a couple more AI.

That is what I did, and I'm now having second thoughts about that

Anyway, seems I tend to do better in BOTM type games where we get a map and try to win it in one way or another. Gauntlets and challenges, and HoF more generally, is about stacking exploits on top of each other and finding a map-needle in the haystack where everything is perfect. Throw in the mix of not being good enough and generally not doing that, and I tend to end up last. Learning a bit here and there is nice, sure, but I don't like ending up last (ish)

Anywho, one thing that confused me about those old culture guides is the insistence on getting a GS for an Academy. Sounds like a poor investment from my view, when you only need to tech to Lib. After that it does nothing, except a tiny bit of culture (which doesn't double).

 

[Pangaea]

As my tests showed warlords AI could potentially snag the Oracle already in 1200BC

I suspect that was an outlier. Was late in my 2nd attempt and only built it in 1000BC. Ofc I don't know the situation on the other continent, but none on mine were close. Did you happen to churn those tests for later wonders? Browsed through the log on my first game, and was amazed to see that Itza, Zeus and Paya (?) went close to 1000AD. Pyramids in 25AD. Sounds incredibly late. Going by iggy's pace, the game is almost over then.

 

[elitetroops]

Academy.. I think old guides tend to overvalue those quite a bit.

I ran the wonder test on three different maps and Oracle dates were 400BC, 1150BC and 1250BC. Very possible 400BC is closer to normal, but with 1.5k beakers on the line I prefer to play it safe... Wonder dates in general vary a lot. If someone with access to marble randomly picks PH early it probably will go early.

The AI seems quite slow in my game. In my tests the third religion always went before 2000BC and SH as well on 2 out of 3 runs. Here I was first to Monotheism in 1700BC and built SH 1650BC. On the other hand, nobody teching Mono makes it more likely that someone instead has picked PH. I know at least Gandhi already had it.

 

[iggymnrr]

Ideally a culture game should have a capital that benefits greatly from CS.

Free speech comes very quickly. Bureaucracy is short-lived. Now that I have a turn count guideline things have cleared up. This should make things easier to plan. My recent game went:

Turn 154: Finished Sistine
Wonder Bread dash ...
Turn 156: Currency
Turn 158: Wonder Butter - Sacrificial altars
Turn 169: Civil Service
Turn 198: Free Speech

Fail gold was the main reason for maxing opponents while minimizing time spent on huts. The map is large enough to do both hut popping and capturing. Captured cities came with a worker. This was like getting a settler and worker from the same hut, except the settler spawns a pop 2 city. The late stretch was done at -50 to -120 GPT. Most of the temple building was also done beforehand so that fail gold could be concentrated upon.

It also looks like my first and 2nd cities built scouts first. I'm not sure why I did this. But this looks like it gives the AI enough time to build a worker while giving myself a chance to pop one. Also, they direct traffic so warriors know where to rush.

 

[iggymnrr]

Anywho, one thing that confused me about those old culture guides is the insistence on getting a GS for an Academy.

Those guides were for deity. Education is usually a 1-bulb tech on the lower levels. A golden age is also a possibility.

 

[Pangaea]

Academy.. I think old guides tend to overvalue those quite a bit.

One of the guides or threads even argued for THREE Academies, to which my reaction was roughly But in fairness jesusin later modified it and said one academy was enough. I like an academy in space games, the game lasts long enough for it to be worth it, but not here when we only tech a small section of the tech tree, and then turn off research.

If I'm lucky with GAs in the game, it looks like I may be able to get around 1200AD. Hopefully can beat my first date, though iggy's game is certainly out of reach.

Oracle dates can vary a lot, and that is probably true on these low levels too. I put Gandhi in the game, and if he gets capital marble or happens to go Priesthood early, he can probably do it around 1500BC. Same if an AI happens to go there early and has a good capital. The Gandhi in the previous game had double gems in his capital and went double-religion probably partly due to that. Oracle isn't something I want to gamble with, and will finish it as soon as Math+CoL is done. Sounds like iggy has gone a different route, but I do quite like CS early here. It helps for the capital to get out some wonders or academies, and it's a while until Lib and Free Speech anyway. If you can pull it off, maybe Oracling Edu or Music is better, but it's hard to tell I think. And probably risks losing Oracle. Can't know what happens on the other continent after all.

Edit: Looking at the log of the first game, where I got Oracle->CS much earlier:
Turn 93 (1675BC): Oracle
Turn 94 (1650BC): Civil Service -> Buro
Turn 163 (155BC): Liberalism
Turn 164 (140BC): Nationalism -> Free Speech

That is exactly 70 turns of Buro, which I think is definitely worth it.

Hmm, did you really go Free Speech only in T198 @iggymnrr? I must have messed up badly then to be that far behind

 

[elitetroops]

Yes, early CS definitely pays off. Even with my weak capital the extra commerce should earn me well over 1k beakers before it's time for Free Speech. 50% bonus hammers on whips and chops for 60-70 turns adds a lot more. Sadly my capital has only one forest left. Think it started with 3 or 4. Another reason to stay away from coastal starts.

 

[iggymnrr]

@Pangaea Yes. Free speech was that late. And apparently I only spent 29 turns in Buro.

I am working on another approach now. Turn 40 and 2 AIs with workers captured. Possibly 3 more AIs may go in the next 20 turns. I can hedge somewhat as I just captured horse ...

 

[Pangaea]

Damn. You guys are playing about 3-4 games in the time I can complete 1

Update: Got it over the line. Not ideal timing for the legendaries, but nothing more I could do. Managed to squeeze out one turn in GPFarm Amsterdam by starving it down 3-4 pop at the end. A handful of turns better than last time, for a 1220AD win.

Spoiler :

Southern gem popped out from the fog, which I was rather pleased about! BFC horse popped up too, but I never used it. Had already taken 4 cities by then, and AIs had archers, so it was a bit iffy. Pericles also had a hill capital, so that wasn't ideal. Struggled with gold in this game, so had to sell a pile of techs for 20-30-40 gold to the three AIs left alive on my continent: Ramesses, Pericles and Stalin. At some point I started to put hammers into a few wonders. It materialised too late to matter, but we did end the game quite rich. Got 13 GArtists, including the free one. A 50/50 GE that I used for a Golden Age, and two GS, that were used to bulb Philo and partly Edu. The free GM from Economics was popped in Ramesses Artemis city, since I didn't have another one for a third Golden Age. Got 2250. Also too late to really matter, but it's nice to not have to worry about gold. 4-4-3 "academies" in this game, with 4 religions. Did get Christianity fairly late when two Greek cities changed hands in the same turn, but there was no point trying to spread it at that point, and then get up super-late cathedrals. Thought Ramesses would send some missionaries, but he never bothered. Smart guy!

Still not sure about the ideal approach here. Or if it's the right call to get those early GScientists. Two more GAs at the end would have saved me many turns, but ofc without the GSes I would have been later to Lib and Free Speech.

Stalin ended up declaring on Ramesses btw, but after a 50 turn 'plotting' period. Took a city because Ramesses moved the newly built WE out (only a longbow left), and then instantly took it back.

As you can see from the image, several cottages failed to become towns, and it was because the cities were practically fully wooded or jungled. The thick jungle belt to the west by all the dyes is an indication of what the land looked like (with a few forests mixed in from what I recall).

 

[elitetroops]

Damn. You guys are playing about 3-4 games in the time I can complete 1

Says the guy who just completed a third game while I'm still in 600BC on my first...

That land makes me seriously jealous. None of my legendary city locations come even close to any of those. I keep asking myself why am I even playing this map.

 

[Pangaea]

Haha, it's only the second game, though. Took merely 34 hours...

 

[iggymnrr]

@Pangaea Nonetheless that is an improvement over the first game. Nice pile of cash at the end!

 

[elitetroops]

Still not sure about the ideal approach here. Or if it's the right call to get those early GScientists. Two more GAs at the end would have saved me many turns, but ofc without the GSes I would have been later to Lib and Free Speech.

I should get t161 or 162 lib without bulbs. Only GP used so far was for state religion shrine. I think saving them for bombs is better if possible. Getting FS earlier than that wouldn't make much of a difference as base culture is still so low.

I'm pretty sure you also would have gained a lot by not making those scientists. There's no way you'd make 12k culture from FS in the few turns it would have been delayed if you didn't bulb.

Gonna need those extra GA bombs to make up for weaker legendary cities. If 2nd and 3rd leggy had one more food resource each this would be a lot better! They would at least have decent hammers for cathedrals with a lot of hills but it takes forever to grow onto them. HG coming soon should help. I also still feel the effects of that first failed war with Gandhi. I really messed up badly with the wars in this game.