[BTS] G-Major 173 - Aztecs, Warlord, Cultural - Deadline October 27th 2020

[iggymnrr]

Mighty fine finish time!

 

[Pangaea]

Cheers elite. It's an amazing date and game. No shame losing to that. Looking at the HoF, it's the fastest game on all non-Mara speeds on all difficulties higher than Settler. Fantastic job!

How did you get all the for buying many buildings in US? Did you complete wonders such as Itza and Paya yourself somewhere, or did some AIs build it relatively early? As noted in an earlier post, I've seen the AIs build those around 1000AD, which would be too late for your game.

Since you say all OF should be put into wonders, did you do that even when the city needed to build temples? Or missionaries? I've found it's quite nice to put OF into temples, as we get the bonus there too.

Gotta say, I got pretty fed up of all the negative events. Got a slave revolt in my capital as well, which cut research almost in half and ultimately postponed Music for 2 turns because I ran out of gold as well (so had to turn off research for that one 'missing' turn). So far three tiles have been ruined too, including the marble. Very annoying and it's a lot of workerturns to redo. Did gain 150 towards Philo though, which was worth half a turn, so you get some and lose some. Have definitely had more negative than positive events so far, however, which kinda sucks. Many of them aren't possible to buy yourself out of either.

 

[elitetroops]

No help from AI with failgold apart from TGW. Here are the wonder dates:

Spoiler :

Having to complete ToA myself was a bit of a downer, but I still got over 4k from it which was mainly used to buy cathedrals. It had been around collecting hammers for quite a while... Then in the golden age I chopped all remaining forests into the Paya and completed it by slowbuilding in Moai city. Would have preferred to use Taj for this but had to complete it early for a smaller amount of failgold that allowed me to build only research until Banking. ToA and Paya would have been the only two pure failgold wonders. I guess UoS also would kind of go in that category but at least I got some use out of it.

Most gold came from the artist wonders. SoZ was huge with almost 3k gold, then another few thousand from Parth and MoM and I think again about 3k from Sistine. UoS was also a big one as it became the main failgold wonder after the artist wonders.

I think all failgold into wonders if possible is the way to go. If you have enough cities building temples and missionaries there's not that much pressure on a single city to get them done super quick. I had 19 cities. Island city didn't participate and legendary cities stopped whipping quite early but the other 15 kept going. With 2-3 whips every turn and every overflow adding 100 wonder hammers (or 2-3 times as much if chops added) the amount of failgold produced will greatly exceed the expenses, leaving extra for rush buying stuff. The only time I didn't put overflow in wonders was when I whipped jags into jags, since those needed barracks for Woody II and I didn't want to build them in more places than necessary.

Second city was absolute MVP. Here seen right before I left slavery for good:

Spoiler :

Built t13 with settler popped from hut, then it immediately built some warriors to capture Constantinople just to the east. After that it also built most of my jags and went on to whip a ton of mishes and temples, as can be seen from the whip anger turns. They'll remember that whipping still in 1500AD.

 

[Pangaea]

Most gold came from the artist wonders. SoZ was huge with almost 3k gold, then another few thousand from Parth and MoM and I think again about 3k from Sistine. UoS was also a big one as it became the main failgold wonder after the artist wonders.

Wow, that's a lot of gold, and you still built the wonders early too. For those artist wonders, I wanted to get them out asap really, for doubling purposes, as I built them in the to-be legendary cities.

19 cities sounds like a lot, but I can't argue with the date, and it makes more sense when you are putting so many hammers towards failgold. Am at turn 150 (350BC I think) in my game, and "only" have 12 cities. Greatly slowed down the settling because I figured 12 was enough, but there are some dotmaps around which I originally intended to settle. Maybe I should do it after all? Means more pressure on workers, though, and the need for even more workers, and it's already a bit rough with so much jungle.

Alternatively I can try going with a leaner empire, the more traditional approach.

Btw, did you guys end up with only 6 AIs on the continent? I killed four, and wanted to keep the last two (one being Mansa), so I can get a little gold here and there, and the odd tech. Actually, Mansa got a GM, but I can't get a single gold out of him. Sadface. Suppose he instantly went into deficit research, and that removes everything from the trade screen. Even with such a small empire, normally they have several hundred available after such events.

 

[elitetroops]

SoZ, MoM and Parth were in legendary cities. With Sistine I argued that it cost the equivalent of two cathedrals and two cathedrals is worth a lot more. Also, at that time no legendary city could whip much anymore and I was out of forests so would have had to slowbuild it, which makes it much harder to failgold.

6 AI on the continent is normal with max amount of AI. I killed three completely and left Isabella and Gandhi with 1 city each. Ramesses was the only one I didn't attack. 9 of my cities were captured, the rest settled.

The only tech I traded for was Alpha. Ramesses conveniently completed it same turn I finished Machinery and wanted to start PP.

 

[iggymnrr]

Yeah 6 AIs here too.

Hm. Alphabet doesn’t pop from a hut. At least not in BTS as far as I can tell. Last try I got AH and writing from huts. I wonder how long it would take to get. It might be worth switching from a religion to it.

 

[Pangaea]

No help from AI with failgold apart from TGW. Here are the wonder dates:
Having to complete ToA myself was a bit of a downer, but I still got over 4k from it which was mainly used to buy cathedrals. It had been around collecting hammers for quite a while... Then in the golden age I chopped all remaining forests into the Paya and completed it by slowbuilding in Moai city. Would have preferred to use Taj for this but had to complete it early for a smaller amount of failgold that allowed me to build only research until Banking. ToA and Paya would have been the only two pure failgold wonders. I guess UoS also would kind of go in that category but at least I got some use out of it.

Most gold came from the artist wonders. SoZ was huge with almost 3k gold, then another few thousand from Parth and MoM and I think again about 3k from Sistine. UoS was also a big one as it became the main failgold wonder after the artist wonders.

The quote feature messed up the screenshot, so I'll just put yours here:


Interesting to compare (and I'm amazed you got 9 cities from the AI, they must have expanded very well). Would like to think being early to some of these wonders means I'm not hopelessly adrift, but that's probably just naive hope

(The 600BC one is the shrine, because I got a GProphet as first GP, although I hoped for a low-ish chance GA)

AI wonders have gone earlier too, including Artemis by Mansa. But he had third ring capital marble. I got very little failgold from these wonders, because it was really awkward to get access to both stone and marble, and it took a long time. Then the stupid game ruined the marble quarry not that long after. Gah!

 

[iggymnrr]

I'm going to try and run a set with Isabella, Lincoln, Joao, Mehmed, Washington, and Mansa in my hemisphere. Issy should be where Stalin was. Which means next to me? Never tried this before.

 

[elitetroops]

I'm not sure you can decide who starts next to you. Asoka was in my first AI slot and he did start next to me quite often, but so did other AI.

Those are some really early wonder dates @Pangaea! Doing some quick maths. Assuming 5 shrines and FS appear between 380BC and 1AD then 1025BC Parthenon will produce about 2.1k more culture over the course of the game than my 380BC Parth. On top of this of course you get more GPP, could be enough to speed up some late GPs by 1 turn (although the cities that benefit the most from this have polluted pools with Oracle and SH so not sure if you plan to make late GPs in those). It's of course always a trade off, could those early hammers be used to speed up victory even more some other way? Ideally you'd want everything. With fast conquest, early wonders, copious amounts of failgold as well as several strong GP farms and legendary city locations that aren't initially covered in jungle a 6xx date should be very possible here. If I had to rate those in order of importance I'd say Conquest (or fast expansion) > Failgold > Strong city locations > Wonders.

AI was expanding fast in my game, but I was also late with wars. Didn't attack Isabella until 1025BC. She had 4 cities by then (took 3). I had taken one city from Hatty before this but had to wait for units to arrive from Spain to take her cap. She had time to settle one more in between. I was playing with no city razing. Some of the cities would have been auto razed without it.

 

[iggymnrr]

I tested out a map. The 6 expected AIs ended up in my hemisphere. That means Shaka is over on the other one with the 8 required AIs. Isabella, formerly known as Stalin, was next to me too.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

If you guys are perfecting Cultural / Warlord games you might like to try this one which is part of the Challenge:-

Cultural / Warlord / Suryavarman / Standard size / Any speed

 

[Tonny]

I've got say that I'm in awe with you're accomplishing here guys!
Just getting used to some aggressive REXing it feels like I'm stuck in the 20th century compared to your games.
Need the relearn the game again to even get a tiny feel of what's possible.

(sidenote: plz do not participate in the warlord culture game at the challenge , that will definitely result in me not taking first place )

 

[Pangaea]

^^ It says earliest finish date wins, but that isn't correct when we look at the scoreboard.

Those are some really early wonder dates @Pangaea! Doing some quick maths. Assuming 5 shrines and FS appear between 380BC and 1AD then 1025BC Parthenon will produce about 2.1k more culture over the course of the game than my 380BC Parth. On top of this of course you get more GPP, could be enough to speed up some late GPs by 1 turn (although the cities that benefit the most from this have polluted pools with Oracle and SH so not sure if you plan to make late GPs in those). It's of course always a trade off, could those early hammers be used to speed up victory even more some other way? Ideally you'd want everything. With fast conquest, early wonders, copious amounts of failgold as well as several strong GP farms and legendary city locations that aren't initially covered in jungle a 6xx date should be very possible here. If I had to rate those in order of importance I'd say Conquest (or fast expansion) > Failgold > Strong city locations > Wonders.

Thank you. Seems like the game has gone off the rails, though I settled 4-5 more cities, which was probably a major mistake. Costs go up, and they basically do nothing for me. Postponed Lib, and will only get it around 1AD, maybe a little later. Gold is hard to get with so few AIs with very few cities and -100g a turn or so, breaking even only around 50% now. Which means running the culture slider post-Lib will be impossible too. Feeling a bit crap over the whole thing. Maybe I need to step away from the game for a year again.

 

[elitetroops]

Hmm.. maybe it's was a bit late for extra cities. You probably already did a lot of your whipping and constructed most of the key wonders. Heavy failgolding is really the only option to pay for huge empires in the BCs and you have to commit to it pretty hard. The main reason to have the big empire would be fast temple and missionary construction while still teching fast. If you're already mostly done with religion spread and close to lib they wouldn't have time to contribute.

How far are you from starting the golden age? Once in golden age it shouldn't be a problem. You need to transition into a hammer economy by then. All cities that aren't going to create GPs or become legendary should be heavily mined/workshopped, then they easily pay your expenses. Anything but hammers becomes pretty meaningless in those cities after you switch into caste and start running culture slider.

 

[Pangaea]

Hmm.. maybe it's was a bit late for extra cities. You probably already did a lot of your whipping and constructed most of the key wonders. Heavy failgolding is really the only option to pay for huge empires in the BCs and you have to commit to it pretty hard. The main reason to have the big empire would be fast temple and missionary construction while still teching fast. If you're already mostly done with religion spread and close to lib they wouldn't have time to contribute.

How far are you from starting the golden age? Once in golden age it shouldn't be a problem. You need to transition into a hammer economy by then. All cities that aren't going to create GPs or become legendary should be heavily mined/workshopped, then they easily pay your expenses. Anything but hammers becomes pretty meaningless in those cities after you switch into caste and start running culture slider.

Probably too late yes, but am now trying to make the best of a bad-ish situation. Got Lib in 25AD (the latest so far, but no bulbs this time), and whipped a few more academies. It's rough on Lisbon because it has no food, and had few forests too. Had to reduce cottage plans a little and use more farms. Completed Paya, and it turns out Ramesses was probably working on it, as he winded up with 160. Wish I knew that. On the other hand, maybe it would have taken 20-30 turns. I got 1200-1300 from it over two turns, so can run at 100% at -86g a turn (Pacifism is a little cheaper, which we just went into).

At Lib I went Free Speech + Slavery, because we simply had to whip out as many missionaries and temples as we could. At times all quotas were filled up. I have no non-legendary city monasteries. Also needed to have them all out the turn before switching back to caste (and losing OR), because otherwise there would be completed but unproduced missionaries in half the cities.

Spoiler :

A few turns ago:

This is in the current turn of 180 (100AD): 11 missionaries of various stripes swarming our empire.

These are the legendary cities. Hermitage is out and 8-9 academies. Unless I can squeeze in a 5-turns slavery window later, the time of whips are now over. Am not sure about using US since we have money issues, but maybe later it will be viable. Bound to be mixed pools here and there, so hope we don't get many non-artists. One is okay for a golden age, but I hope that's it. A golden age is therefore not in the immediate future (since you asked about it).

Spoiler :

Hermitage in capital (hope I don't regret that). Zeus and Parthenon have doubled already, plus Oracle and Stonehenge of course. Few of the state religion buildings have (Judaism), but I shouldn't think it's too far off.

This one actually has a town already

With that, you guys see how my cities and empire are doing, for better or worse. No idea about how this compares with your game elite (probably miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiles behind), but I do hope it will beat the 1220AD date at least, hopefully by a lot. Depends on GA luck perhaps.

Here's hoping most of the missionaries succeed, especially with Buddhism in Lisbon, as it's the only missing religion in the legendary cities.

Interestingly, Ramesses gifted me a city some turns ago. Don't think I've seen that before. Don't think the city centre had my culture in it yet, but probably many inner ring tiles because he slammed down a city in my face. The closest city (Delhi) was only 3 turns away from expanding borders, which would have expanded to Pi-Ramesses' city centre.

Spoiler :

 

[Pangaea]

You need to transition into a hammer economy by then. All cities that aren't going to create GPs or become legendary should be heavily mined/workshopped, then they easily pay your expenses. Anything but hammers becomes pretty meaningless in those cities after you switch into caste and start running culture slider.

On this point, going with workshops would require Guilds and/or Chemistry, which is far away. Have queued up PP next, but ofc need to slow-Rep-tech through MC and Machinery first, which will take a long while. In the previous games, I have hired a bunch of merchants in cities that probably can't produce GAs. Kinda hard to know what cities that is, especially early on. These culture games are strange though. It's actually better to work a forested grassland tile over a lighthoused coastal tile once the flip has been switched.

 

[iggymnrr]

Those screenshots are interesting. They remind me of something I want to test. Does the decrease in city maintenance from sacrificial alters increase cultural output?

 

[Pangaea]

No. Why would that be related? Unless you went with No espionage I suppose, which wouldn't be a legal HoF setting.

 

[elitetroops]

I'd say you're in pretty good shape! I had 5-4-4 cathedrals up (+hermitage), the last 5th cathedrals 1 and 7 turns away. Your cities have much higher base culture than mine, although mine are not in full culture mode yet. Two building the cathedrals and cap in growth mode. The big difference would be that I'm 2 turns from Printing Press at this date. I'm also quite close to starting the final golden age. Knowing the finish date I should have started it already...

Hermitage in capital looks correct. It should always go in city with highest base culture.

On this point, going with workshops would require Guilds and/or Chemistry, which is far away.

In Golden Age with caste they're already 1f3h. Since all forests should be chopped by then this would often be the best available tile after food and mines. Until the GA you'd want to grow them all on farms, then add in more and more hammer tiles. Quite soon there'll come a point when whatever they do can't speed up finish date anymore so you need to squeeze all benefit out of them before that. Growing to have 1-2 more pop in last 10 turns most likely won't do anything for you but working hammers to speed up Banking will.

I have hired a bunch of merchants in cities that probably can't produce GAs. Kinda hard to know what cities that is, especially early on.

This is not very good. You really should know which cities are about to produce them since those should be in full growth mode by now and fully farmed, while other cities are improved differently. I had 5 cities running 10-10-9-8-7 artists, +merc artist and maybe some more while starving. One more capable of running 7 would have helped but I had no more that could run that many. Anything less and it wouldn't have been able to produce one anyway.

Edit: also had this BS still going on in 100AD:

Spoiler :

At one point he even took the fish for a few turns. Would have been pop 18 already if I had been smart enough to kill him completely.

 

[iggymnrr]

Why would that be related?

The culture slider converts commerce into culture. City maintenance decreases commerce. So if sacrificial alters/courthouses were everywhere there should be more commerce to go into culture. Right? Or not?