G-Major 43

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thanks for the tips, they are helpful. Now I am wondering about how to keep the peace. Is there a thread that deals with keeping peace on higher difficulties? How do you placate one rival with civics or religion without pissing off another? Do you always give tribute when they demand it? Do you offer them gifts without being asked to do so?

I learned to win the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory in G-Major 34:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=288627

I highly recommend it.

It contains a link to a very technical description of how the Diplomatic score is computed, including which parts are visible from within the Diplomatic screen and the few that are not. It is helpful if you can understand most of it; it's not easy to understand; luckily, you don't have to understand it completely to run up a big Diplomatic score with your AI Allies.

Most AIs will vote for you at +8 Visible Diplomacy.

You will be running Organized Religion nearly the entire game so you can build Missionaries with Monasteries, so it may make sense to include AIs whose Favorite Civic is OR. They are Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Suryavarman II and Brennus. Definitely include Hatshepsut and Ramesses II for this reason. Both Suryavarman II and Brennus can be more trouble than they are worth.

Gandhi and Zara Yaqob have a +2 Diplomatic bonus, so be sure to include them.

The same set of AIs that I played against in the Deity (Marathon) Religious HOF tables will work fine in this Gauntlet. I won't say they are the absolute best set of AIs to play against, but they worked out quite well for me.

If you have any specific questions that still remain unanswered, I'll do my best to answer them.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Almond]

Thanks for the advice, Sun Tzu Wu.

I just finished my first attempt with the previous advice and despite making many mistakes I came close, but didn't make it. I was buddhist with the other three civs on my continent which made them very happy. When I built the AP I wasn't sure if I should stay buddhist or switch to christianity real quick, and since this forum was down (lol, doh!) I couldn't read up on it so I stayed buddhist. I was always the leader in the election but lincoln had too many votes to himself for me to win. Then I spread buddhism massively to rooseveldt in the hopes that he would offset Lincoln's votes but then he just became my main competitor instead of lincoln! I also think that I could have won the first or second vote had I switched to no state religion. I think that I'll be victorious the second time around. I found that the advice to regen the map until I get gold or gems in my starting city was very good since the commerce allowed me to keep up with the early tech race.

I should mention that I didn't get the oracle OR any GPs and I still was first to Theology...

 

[Almond]

I'll also add some advice: the leaders who voted for me every time were Joao, Hats, Roos, and Hammurabi. I'll try another with Gandhi and Zara instead of asoka and lincoln. Asoka voted for me early but then dropped state religion and usually abstained. Lincoln was my main competitor and I don't know if he would have voted for me if not for being a competitor.

 

[AgedOne]

@Almond
It's part of the strategy to try to avoid anyone else running the religion of the AP.

Once you get into that, it becomes much more of a struggle to gather enough votes to overhaul your rival. Far better to remain the only candidate. Then you only have to get AI to vote for you rather than abstaining.

Most times, if you are running No State Religion, an AI will vote for you once their attitude is up to +7. This is not always true, but enough to be a useful rule of thumb.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I just finished my first attempt with the previous advice and despite making many mistakes I came close, but didn't make it. I was buddhist with the other three civs on my continent which made them very happy. When I built the AP I wasn't sure if I should stay buddhist or switch to christianity real quick, and since this forum was down (lol, doh!) I couldn't read up on it so I stayed buddhist. I was always the leader in the election but lincoln had too many votes to himself for me to win. Then I spread buddhism massively to rooseveldt in the hopes that he would offset Lincoln's votes but then he just became my main competitor instead of lincoln! I also think that I could have won the first or second vote had I switched to no state religion. I think that I'll be victorious the second time around. I found that the advice to regen the map until I get gold or gems in my starting city was very good since the commerce allowed me to keep up with the early tech race.

When all your neighbors share the same State Religion, you should share it as well when building (but not completing) The Apostolic Palace. Otherwise, use a Religion your closest Civs or meanest Civs have as their their State Religion. Sometimes, you have to use Christinity, because that's the only Religion you have. In any case, chop TAP fast to minimize risk and to win earlier.

Just before the final turn of completing TAP, switch to the minority Religion (usually Christianity) that you tightly control; no Civ has this minority Religion as its State Religion. If you are careful to not spread the TAP Religion to too many Cities of your Allies, they will not switch to the TAP Religion and you will be the only candidate for the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory vote. Without an opponent to beat, it will be much easier to win. (If an AI doesn't like you enough, he will abstain and you will lose his votes, hopefully no more than 3 and ideally just 1.)

I should mention that I didn't get the oracle OR any GPs and I still was first to Theology...

An easy way to get an early Great Prophet is to build Stonehenge as soon as possible. This may make it difficult to get the two Great Scientists from the second City before the Great Prophet emerges, but it may be easier to initially just forget about generating and bulbing two Great Scientists.

I'd first try just generating a Great Prophet to bulb Theology and use The Oracle to get Metal Casting which is easier to do than Machinery; An AI may complete The Oracle before you have the prerequisites for Machinery. Then research Compass and Optics normally rather than use Great Scientists via bulbing.

When you got that working, try adding one GS for Optics bulbing. Then try adding two GS for Compass and Optics. When adding the GSs, you may have to replace Stonehenge with a Temple and Priest, so the Great Prophet emerges after the two GSs plus you will have better control of when the Great Prophet emerges by controlling when the Priest is working/hired.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Almond]

My second attempt is going well so far but there are a few hang ups. I spread christianity to rooseveldt without realizing that he didn't already have a state religion and now that is his state religion. If I send missionaries of the other religions to him is he at all likely to convert to that religion? I christianized his smallest city; if I spread judaism into a few of his larger cities might he convert to judaism? I think he's running theocracy right now too... He is on the other continent.

On my continent I spread christianity to the smallest city of each of my rivals. Now christianity has spread to several of their other cities. All of these rivals but one have founded a religion, and all have state religions other than christianity. Are they at all likely to convert to christianity?

 

[Misotu]

if I spread judaism into a few of his larger cities might he convert to judaism? I think he's running theocracy right now too... He is on the other continent.

He might. If he's in theocracy, you will need to gift your missionaries to him.

On my continent I spread christianity to the smallest city of each of my rivals. Now christianity has spread to several of their other cities. All of these rivals but one have founded a religion, and all have state religions other than christianity. Are they at all likely to convert to christianity?

Very unlikely if they have founded a religion themselves. Also very unlikely as long as Christianity doesn't become the dominant religion in their cities.

 

[Almond]

Success! I won the victory in 1260.

I gifted Roos one jewish missionary in his capital and by the time I had another caravel back he had already converted to judaism.

Thanks for all of the help everyone!

 

[AgedOne]

Success! I won the victory in 1260.

I gifted Roos one jewish missionary in his capital and by the time I had another caravel back he had already converted to judaism.

Thanks for all of the help everyone!

Well done.
That's better than my first crack at this game (if you look back to page 1, you'll see my shame).
Now, don't you go improving in the next 6 days, and knocking any of us who helped you off our table positions.

As you found, gifting does work, as long as you don't mind your gift being used indiscriminately! So you don't do it if what you really need is a size 1 city being converted, as the recipient is quite likely to take it home to his capital and unwrap it there .

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Success! I won the victory in 1260.

Congratulations!

Did you build Stonehenge to generate a Great Prophet early and use The Oracle for Metal Casting as I suggested? If not, did you bulb any Great People or use The Oracle?

I gifted Roos one jewish missionary in his capital and by the time I had another caravel back he had already converted to judaism.

I'm convinced that gifting a Missionary to an AI running Theocracy in a large City will usually result in the AI using it in that City. If you want a small City converted to TAP Religion, you may have to plan a Settler close to the AI, convert the City to the TAP Religion via your Missionary and gift the City; best done in the poorest land you can find near the AI to reduce his changes of spreading the TAP Religion to his larger Cities.

Thanks for all of the help everyone!

Your welcome!

Sun Tzu wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

My second attempt is going well so far but there are a few hang ups. I spread christianity to rooseveldt without realizing that he didn't already have a state religion and now that is his state religion. If I send missionaries of the other religions to him is he at all likely to convert to that religion? I christianized his smallest city; if I spread judaism into a few of his larger cities might he convert to judaism? I think he's running theocracy right now too... He is on the other continent.

A non-Spiritual Leader will not easily switch from one Religion to another Religion. He will almost always do it if he founded the second Religion. He will also do it when the the second Religion becomes much more popular within his Borders than the current State Religion.

With some Leaders, like Mansa Musa and Hatshepsut, this will be nearly impossible to do, since they prioritize spreading all Relgions within their Borders. You have a good chance as long as you spread TAP Religion to a small City and the AI is slow in building his first TAP Missionary.

On my continent I spread christianity to the smallest city of each of my rivals. Now christianity has spread to several of their other cities. All of these rivals but one have founded a religion, and all have state religions other than christianity. Are they at all likely to convert to christianity?

Because of this spread, I'd suggest converting only AI Allies early in the home Continent. Spread to the other AIs in small Cities just before the RL DV vote would come up.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Almond]

Did you build Stonehenge to generate a Great Prophet early and use The Oracle for Metal Casting as I suggested? If not, did you bulb any Great People or use The Oracle?

I was already well into the game before I read your comment so, no, I didn't try to build stonehenge. I used the oracle to get theology, and I chopped it. But I had a problem as I noticed that with one turn to go for the oracle I didn't have the necessary prerequisites for theo. To my amazement no one else built oracle while I teched for about 30 turns to get the necessary prereqs!! Once I had monotheism I let the oracle finish.

As for great people, I have never made an effort in particular to generate them. I am just happy when they appear and I know that is a major weakness in my game. In many ways I am still playing Civ II, so I appreciate the advice about the GPs.

Because of this spread, I'd suggest converting only AI Allies early in the home Continent. Spread to the other AIs in small Cities just before the RL DV vote would come up.

That is what I did and christianity spread throughout my continent very quickly. I was a little worried that the one ally on my continent that had NOT founded his own religion might convert but thankfully he didn't. It certainly makes victory come sooner to spread christianity to one small city on your home continent but there's a small risk that one of your allies might convert to christianity and rival you for the AP vote. In the end I only had something like 34 votes and Hattie, bless her soul, had something like 150 because she had spread christianity to all of her cities, but since she founded judaism didn't convert. In the end everyone voted for me except for Zara who had just asked me two turns prior to convert to his religion and I declined.

 

[Htadus]

I just submitted my first Religious game. Very opposite of my regular game style.

Got a start with 2 gold, wheat and cow. Got some worker techs and went for Machinary sling. Had the second city run 2 scientist for a GS. GS came first and then the Prophet from SH and the Oracle.

Theology in 725BC (GP), self learn compass 410 BC, 2 GS' bulb mathematics and Optics in 395 BC, and completed AP 155 BC. Took forever to spread the religion to to last AI with 2 caravals. I am going to build a bunch of caravals and chain link them if I try again. Finally got the win in 880AD on the first vote. It should have been finished sometime before 500 AD. Oh well poor game play at spreading AP rel. There may be another game left in me. Hay MaaaapFinder where are youooooo

BTW, thanks to everyone who posed comments in this thread.

Game:
Mansa, Periclese, Gandhi, Hatty, Hamurabi, Joao, Fred and Wong.
Ran slavery, Beuro and OR.
Did not gift Theology when asked but gifted many others.
No AP competition from AI. All AI's voted with either pleased or Friendly (Periclese)

Noted:
AP vote does not come up until ALL AI get to vote during resident selection. Once they all get to vote, the AP victory vote came up withing 4

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Theology in 725BC (GP), self learn compass 410 BC, 2 GS' bulb mathematics and Optics in 395 BC, and completed AP 155 BC. Took forever to spread the religion to to last AI with 2 caravals. I am going to build a bunch of caravals and chain link them if I try again. Finally got the win in 880AD on the first vote. It should have been finished sometime before 500 AD. Oh well poor game play at spreading AP rel. There may be another game left in me. Hay MaaaapFinder where are youooooo

Great game! Especially, since it was both your first Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and first submission for this Gauntlet.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Misotu]

Congratulations on your game Htadus!

I noticed this comment in your post:

Noted:
AP vote does not come up until ALL AI get to vote during resident selection. Once they all get to vote, the AP victory vote came up withing 4

I'm not sure where this is from, but I know I have had games where the victory vote comes up without all AIs voting in the election for resident. I'm also pretty sure ianw1610 also mentioned this in a write-up of one of his games for this gauntlet.

 

[ianw1610]

I'm not sure where this is from, but I know I have had games where the victory vote comes up without all AIs voting in the election for resident. I'm also pretty sure ianw1610 also mentioned this in a write-up of one of his games for this gauntlet.

As far as I know, the resident selection comes up on the turn the AP is completed, irrespective of which Civs have the AP religion. On Epic speed, the Diplo victory option appears 14 turns after that, and then every 14 turns thereafter, but does not appear if (i) one or more Civs does not yet have the AP religion in any city, or (ii) a Civ is holding 75% or more of the votes, as defined in the Victory screen tab labelled "Members". Every 70 turns, the recurring vote is for resident, instead of Diplo victory.

It will be intersting to see if anyone was successful in achieving the seemingly-elusive BC finish...

 

[Htadus]

Great game! Especially, since it was both your first Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and first submission for this Gauntlet.

Sun Tzu Wu

Thank you. In all due honesty this was my third attempt for this Gauntlet. The first two did not go past 100 turns due to bad decisions. Since I had several promising start locations (MapFinder let loose overnight), I just stopped and started on a new map. The problem I encountered was AP religion spread via RNG to one or more AI's soon enough for them to adopt it. This was due to close proximity and I used my second GP for CS un wittingly. Since I had not completed the AP, I could have trade for Monarchy and bulbed Islam and use that as the AP religion. But I was not thinking this clearly at the time .

Congratulations on your game Htadus!

I noticed this comment in your post:



I'm not sure where this is from, but I know I have had games where the victory vote comes up without all AIs voting in the election for resident. I'm also pretty sure ianw1610 also mentioned this in a write-up of one of his games for this gauntlet.

Please take my "Noted:" comment with a grain of salt since it is based on the experience of just one complete game. In that game, the AP vote did not come in for about 10-12 turns after converting the last AI. It took about eight turns to get the next election and about 4 turns after the vote came up.

However, I did play another game since (715 AD win) then and it did NOT require all AI voting for the Resident before the RL win vote came up. So my initial observation is null I guess (baring some game mechanics anomelies).

As far as I know, the resident selection comes up on the turn the AP is completed, irrespective of which Civs have the AP religion. On Epic speed, the Diplo victory option appears 14 turns after that, and then every 14 turns thereafter, but does not appear if (i) one or more Civs does not yet have the AP religion in any city, or (ii) a Civ is holding 75% or more of the votes, as defined in the Victory screen tab labelled "Members". Every 70 turns, the recurring vote is for resident, instead of Diplo victory.

It will be intersting to see if anyone was successful in achieving the seemingly-elusive BC finish...

OK now this make sense to me. Thank you for that bit of information. So my observation was just missreading of coincidences by a poorly informed player . I officially retract my silly comment .

Just for clarification, The vote for selection of AP resident did come fairly soon after the completion of AP. The AP win vote was what I thought took too long. So basically each missed opportunity cost at least 14 turns and as many as 28 turns.

 

[Almond]

What is the map finder?

 

[AgedOne]

What is the map finder?

I think the way I would describe it is a utility for taking away the drudgery of endlessly regenerating starts until you find one that you like.
You can find more about it on the HoF page, which has a section on Mods: here.

Basically, after installing, you teach it what kind of things you want to look for in a good start (like 2 food, some commerce tiles, etc) by providing a set of rules. Then you fire up Civ, and make sure you've set the option in the HoF Mod options screen to use MapFinder. Then provide the custom game settings that you're going to use, and let it generate the first start. At that point you go into MapFinder mode by pressing Alt-M.

It will then generate starts endlessly, saving details of any that match the criteria you provided. You finish the search by pressing Alt-X.

After the search, you come out of Civ, and go into MapFinder. There, you'll find a list of the games that have been saved - with a screenshot of the start and a list of things that can be seen. From there, you can start any of the saved games in Civ and play them.

You'll find some that consider MapFinder to be borderline cheating, but I don't buy this. It doesn't tell you anything that you couldn't have got from doing the boring task of regenerating manually. It just does it while you're away doing something else.

 

[magpie_robert]

Well, I just completed a DV in 1265AD (265 turns) which is much better than my first effort. It was a pretty ideal start - 3 clams and 2 gems in the capital and founded my second city on marble.

Turned out I was on an island on my own. Turned out to be a bit of a weird map with 5 mini-continents although I had the "2 continent setting" on. Had to send a workboat exploring but made contact with 4 others and we all gradually converted to Judaism.

I managed the Machinery slingshot with the Oracle on turn 113 in the marble city and lightbulbed Compass and Optics (turn 148 -380BC) with scientists from the capital. So far, so good.

However, I wasn't going to get a prophet for ages so I teched Theology - and was beaten by Hatty by 2 turns!! So I thought I would go for Taoism with my next scientist - and got beaten by Zara!!! AAAAAARGH

In the end I started teching Divine Right and used the prophet to finish it. Luckily, Islam founded in Poverty Point where I was already building the AP. But I had lost 37 turns where I could have been spreading Christianity while building the AP.

So, back to the Map Finder for another go........