G-Major LXI

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Emperor
Hall of Fame Staff
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
1,056
Location
Belgium
While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

Settings:
  • Expansion: Brave New World
  • Victory Condition: Science (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: King
  • Map Size: Standard
  • Map Type: Frontier
  • Speed: Standard
  • Leader: Any
  • Opponents: Any
  • Version: SV8
  • Date: 1st June to 1st July 2015
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
 
I need a Frontier map to finish my Map Quest. This looks like a good game to play.
 
A Science any-civ challenge? Glad it's a major. Korea, Babylon, Mayans, Poland at the very least are all worth giving a go.

Others can be attempted as more of a challenge -- Are there many lakes on Frontier for the Aztecs to grow like mad? Is King high enough level for Assyrian conquests to help a lot? Can Siam use its alliances and Wats well enough to rock science faster than others? Moroccan casbahs for crazy Petras help enough? Incan terrace farming in the frontier hills give enough growth to compete? Answers are probably no's but may be fun to try.

Of course, as in all any civ challenges, rolling for multiple early NW with Spain will be a strong contender as well.
 
Incans should be really good here. I was actually considering an Inca/OCC/Frontier game for one of the future Deity challenges.

Korea will probably be my first choice here though, still need them for VVV.
 
I am going to go for Korea too. Liberty is a candidate here I think. The Frontier map, as Zenmaster kindly reminded me, is a pretty enormous map so no problems with space. Would be nice to get a coastal mountain cap and some 6-7 expos, happiness permitting. Cargos are essential I believe if you want to work those specialist spots.
 
I am very tempted to roll the bones with Spain and see what fate has in store. I don't really have any good Spain games in. At the very least I should get some cash to buy an early settler. Different N Wonders could lead to vastly different approaches as well. I hope Frontier is prone to good ones unlike Great Plains...
 
I am very tempted to roll the bones with Spain and see what fate has in store. I don't really have any good Spain games in. At the very least I should get some cash to buy an early settler. Different N Wonders could lead to vastly different approaches as well. I hope Frontier is prone to good ones unlike Great Plains...
Discovering Ed Dorado and the Great Barrier Reef early could spell success.
 
I haven't played the Mayans much (perhaps at all) in BNW, and certainly since the most recent patch.

Is it realistic to shoot for GL slingshot to Theology (on King level) to jump start the Mayan calendar? Would it be better to go for a more traditional GL slingshot to Philosophy to get the NL up early and tech Theology?
 
Well I have played a few starts with Korea, 4 cities Tradition, nothing fancy. I am having real problems hitting a decent Edu time, food is sparse. My best so far is a 109 with BW, Sailing and Masoney, but with no money for Unis, so no good. With Korea it is essential to hit a 102-103 Edu with at least money for 2 Unis if you want to hit 210-220 win, the starts are OK, mountains are plentyful, but there is not enough food. A later Edu, say 110 is Ok if you have 5 good cities, but I am unable to do it.

I think I will take a rest, mothball my current game and try Spain, or play a couple of tries of the Shoshone OCC.

I am finding King surprisingly difficult. It has the worst of both worlds, the AIS are not powerful enough to take care pf barbarians, but they can front settle you, unlike the lower levels, and on the other hand, they are poor, and do not build their workers until t25, and they tech poorly so no beakers from trade routes, so it is difficult to exploit them like you can in higher levels. And on the growth front I am maxing out happiness systematically. I will come back to Korea, but for now, I am going to let them rest.
 
I rolled a 4 salt start for Korea, but there weren't many good spots for expansion cities. I think I finished Education on about turn 105 or so. I played to turn 150 and saved the game. I have only 3 cities, the first two next to mountains and inland and the third coastal and about to finish Petra. On turn 150 I am cranking out about 160 :c5science: per turn IIRC. I have planted 2 GS near my capital and I have founded and enhanced my religion (Tithe, Pagodas, and Feed the World along with +50 :c5faith: per great person expended).

It is a bit of a slow start, but I am starting to roll along nicely. I think it will be about a 240-260 finish time so no record breaker, but a nice starting bench mark. I'll take some screenshots when I spin the game up again.
 
Here are my first two cities on turn 150:
Spoiler :

This is my third city, a bit further away:
Spoiler :

The terrain was not very favorable. I could fit 3 more cities along the coast, but they would not have much to offer. I guess as Korea, just having the three extra cities for extra specialists would be its own reward. Early on, I had happiness problems, and by the time I had enough happiness to expand further, it seemed a bit late.

I had some problems with barbarians. I lost my warrior early on, and I lost my caravans when I shifted them to my new 3rd city. There were three barbarian camps which kept coming back.

I did not improve all of those salt resources (or any other tiles) very early, because I did not have a worker. The first workers I came across were at Rome which was too far away to steal and walk back to my territory. The CS did not build workers very early either. I did not get the 310 gold to buy a worker until about turn 50-60 IIRC. Within a few turns of buying my first worker, I had 3 workers (two captured from barbarians).

At turn 150, I only had the science buildings in my capital. A few turns later I got the buildings up in my other cities.

A slow start which will not garner a great finish date. I feel the need to play it out though.

When I reached Industrialism, I discovered that there was no coal any where near my territory either.

I did not meet Attila until after turn 200, so the WC votes were behind and I got a real lat World Fair. To add insult to injury, the AI players were able to force through a resolution to embargo CS.
 
Here is the finish screen...turn 306.
Spoiler :

I don't think I will submit this one. I can do much better with Korea later in the month.

You can see that I did eventually expand to 6 cities (on about turn 220 or so). Despite the poor tiles and having less than 100 turns to mature, they turned out quite okay. I think Korea should expand to 6 cities (or perhaps even 8) ASAP to get all the specialist rolling early in the game.
 
@Mesix - From the posts above, it is plain that the map threw a lot of curveballs at you this game. Great that you got a full game in though.

Time permitting, it is always good to finish out one complete game initially no matter the result. You learn so much about the timing and challenges of the settings by playing through completely.

I agree with Bleidraner (as always pretty much [emoji4] ) that King is the NON-sweet-spot difficulty level. AIs don' t help you with barbs, bulbs, or gold very much at all! Yet dealing with happiness and barbs is tougher. In this one, the Frontier map does you no favors either.

I think Korea should expand to 6 cities (or perhaps even 8) ASAP to get all the specialist rolling early in the game.

Agreed. The tricky part is finding the early happiness to effectively get this done!

I will pose this question to you and others here re: Korea. Do you think they are better off here on King going Great Library/NC first or settling 1-2 cities prior? With the bonus for science buildings, I think ignoring the GL is a waste, and I can't see getting a fast 4 city NC with a GL... You will get beat to the GL I think if you try to plant 3 cities prior; 1 or 2 should work though.

EDIT: Looking up the specifics of "Scholars of the Jade Hall", I see that the boost from science buildings/wonders is like that from Research Agreements. It would seem that delaying the GL for a settler or two would not hurt (presuming you don't get beat to the GL...) Considering that on Warlord the GL just went to an AI at T51 one game, maybe it is best to be paranoid though?
 
Well I have played a few starts with Korea, 4 cities Tradition, nothing fancy. I am having real problems hitting a decent Edu time, food is sparse. My best so far is a 109 with BW, Sailing and Masoney, but with no money for Unis, so no good. With Korea it is essential to hit a 102-103 Edu with at least money for 2 Unis if you want to hit 210-220 win, the starts are OK, mountains are plentyful, but there is not enough food. A later Edu, say 110 is Ok if you have 5 good cities, but I am unable to do it.

Do you really think Korea can hit T210/220 easily, especially here at King (caveat: played by those other than Ironfighter and tommynt)? Korea has nice science bonuses but they are not Poland [emoji6] Was there a GOTM where that was happening? Not much to go on in HOF but Thorak's best in Deity was T247 and Klaskeren's King Level Quick gauntlet win is equivalent to about a standard T235-240 I think. I remember that one - if you can find it, look up his screenshot; he had an incredible Petra and blew away the field.

Speaking of Poland, somebody should be trying them too- I just played vadalaz' Deity challenge with them, so it probably won't be me, but they are so strong in science games. I know people downplay them a bit sometimes compared to Korea, but Babylon's GSes rock as well. Decisions, decisions...
 
I'd agree about the non-sweet spot.
Also the AI being weak doesn't affect their stupidity. Just played a game to about 190 as the Inca decided to drop another near mountain city with good growth potential, was in the range of Korea so they complained. Keeping in mind this is just about a worthless city for anyone but the Inca.

I've been friends with them since early game, had a couple RAs and a current, they proceed to denounce the next turn, followed by two other great friends (Sweden, Poland). And the following turn you probably know whats coming. Multiple DoWs, ending a couple current RAs. Such nonsense, I can understand maybe coding the AI to be a little dumber in lower levels, but they should still recognize the sheer power difference.

Anyway,I could drop units one per turn that outclass everything they have in that 1 pop city.
Course that completely ruins this fast SV attempt, but they don't know that!? :)

That and the y congress proposals, I mean really, of all the things possible Venice wants jewelry banned? I stopped playing China in my games because it was always some y negative proposal. The AI in this iteration are very douchey.

Also, my capital had 6-7 salts, and 2 wheats in the workable rings. Unfortunately it was also peppered with some bare tundra. And the rest of the map was a bit weak. Some good long term cities for Inca with the terraces, but early game was slow except in the capital.
Also Korea kept sniping second tier wonders, they got ToA like turn 40 before I even prioritized it.

I would predict this to be in the 250-280 range, the Inca are fun to play, lets you look at land a lot differently than everyone else.
 
I'm playing Inca as well. They're too fun on a mountain-heavy map like this. I'm also trying high sea level to get higher concentrations of luxuries and other resources, and it seems to be working. Still enough land to settle too, Frontier is just huge.

GL seems to be going around T45-50. I don't think it's worth building in this game unless you can somehow generate a ton of early gold to buy 2 settlers very quickly... Like a lucky Spain start. :)
 
Do you really think Korea can hit T210/220 easily, especially here at King (caveat: played by those other than Ironfighter and tommynt)? Korea has nice science bonuses but they are not Poland [emoji6] Was there a GOTM where that was happening? Not much to go on in HOF but Thorak's best in Deity was T247 and Klaskeren's King Level Quick gauntlet win is equivalent to about a standard T235-240 I think. I remember that one - if you can find it, look up his screenshot; he had an incredible Petra and blew away the field.

Speaking of Poland, somebody should be trying them too- I just played vadalaz' Deity challenge with them, so it probably won't be me, but they are so strong in science games. I know people downplay them a bit sometimes compared to Korea, but Babylon's GSes rock as well. Decisions, decisions...

Not easily no. But I just played a Korea game last month, with a given map, and got a t208 with Liberty. Acken got a 198. I had 8 cities, all planted before t75. But that map was AWESOME for Liberty, a lot of unique luxuries and CSs relatively near for happiness. But Korea is incredible in the late game with multiple cities.

This map is a whole different animal, bad food and not a lot of luxuries. Plenty of space though. I played a map to 150, 350 bpt, but slow going as I did not have money for buildings, had to spend it on happiness. I retired that game, it was looking like a t240.

GL is going in my games on the 60s. I mean there is the odd game where it goes t50, but that's just unlucky. I am planting my 4 cities around t50, at the cost of 7-8 turns of unhappiness, so there is a chance to get GL. I am building ToA in an expo, that delays NC so not sure it is optimal. Liberty is really not an option, even with Tradition and just 4 cities it is all I can do to keep my head above the water happiness wise. I think 2 in Patronage is essential in this game, if you have growth potential.

I am revising my estimates up to 220-230 though. The dirt is just too poor. I am also, like Vadalaz, using high sea level, that bunches the luxuries a little bit and helps.
 
I've played two test games up to turn 100 or so with Inca. One Tradition, one Trad/Liberty mix (Tradition opener + Liberty + Aristocracy --- this gives more happiness than Tradition early, similar happiness midgame, then Tradition pulls ahead late). Not really satisfied with either game, but I think I like the Trad/Liberty mix better here.

The barbs on this map are completely out of control. I don't think I've ever heard anything about barb camp/unit spawn rate varying by map type, but it really feels like the barbs are extra fierce here. The big takeaway of that for me is that early hammers are extremely precious -- need a lot of units to handle barbs, especially if you want to get out and do CS quests. Even on high sea level, this map is gigantic.

The other consideration is that Inca have incentive to tech Construction early. Taking the time to do this delays Philosophy, pushing back the "natural" National College start time. Theoretically, this means more time to plant cities. And Terrace Farms mean that Inca cities become self-sufficient very easily -- you can plant extra cities without needing to spend much gold rush-buying them into usefulness. However, you DO need to buy a lot of tiles, since the prime Terrace Farm spots often are things that the city governor won't prioritize. Having the base 3 city-culture from Trad/Liberty is nice to help with border growth.

My first game (Trad/Liberty) I finished National College around t90 (five cities) and wasn't too happy about it. Then tried a Tradition game to see how far I could get that time down and ended up about the same place, except with only four cities this time. Trad/Liberty was looking a lot faster to Education, especially since I had an Academy planted from the Liberty finisher. Tradition has better growth of course, but I think a faster start and more cities could overcome that. Inca get really nice growth already.

I do really like the Academy from the Liberty finisher, but with the amount of space on this map I think there's a case to be made for going extra-extra wide and using a GE on the National College. Something like 6+ cities would be nice. I'm not actually too worried about early happiness. The upside of the large map and crazed barbs is that you can get a lot of CS quests as long as you invest in the units. Helps a lot with the happys. And Inca get a lot of hammers eventually from all those Terrace Farms, making it not too much of a burden to build happiness buildings.
 
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