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G-Major XLV

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Denniz, Feb 1, 2014.

  1. Denniz

    Denniz Where's my breakfast? Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

    (*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

    Settings:
    • Expansion: Brave New World
    • Victory Condition: Domination (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
    • Difficulty: Immortal
    • Map Size: Standard
    • Map Type: Large Islands
    • Speed: Standard
    • Leader: Indonesia (Gajah Mada)
    • Opponents: Must include Denmark (Harald), England (Elizabeth), Korea (Sejong), Netherlands (William), Polynesia (Kamehameha), Portugal (Maria I), Venice (Enrico Dandolo)
    • Version: SV8
    • Date: 1st February to 1st March 2014
    The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

    Edit: Removed Spain to get down to 7.
     
  2. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    ohhhh, fun. :D

    Finally, an excuse to use those silly kris swordsmen!

    EDIT: Um, you listed 8 opponents. Does this mean we can pick which 7 of the 8 we face, or was that an accident?
     
  3. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

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    That was a mistake. I'm sure Denniz will remove one when he next logs in.
     
  4. Peets

    Peets Emperor Hall of Fame Staff

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    Belgium
    I know how that feels :D
     
  5. Denniz

    Denniz Where's my breakfast? Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I was :blush: and I did. Removed Spain. Stuck them in when I thought I was short one. Must to forgot to remove them when I found another sea-faring type civ.
     
  6. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    NP. Spain is nerfed on Large Islands... almost zero chance of a NW until after Optics. Good call. :)'

    Hmm, I think I was confusing "Large Islands" with something else... forgot how this map type worked. Definitely requires a change in long-term planning and build order. Fun!
     
  7. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    My first attempt... Large Islands really messes with my build order. I have two goals:
    1) Invade with Kris
    2) Settle 3 cities on other islands.

    Well, Large Islands doesn't really make it very easy to find 3 other islands worth settling. I'm not settling a 2-tile island. So I only got one expo, on England's island. ;)

    Full Liberty, detoured to Engineering before Civil Service. Not for the aqueducts, which I totally don't need, but for that extra trade route. I need that money!

    Because I went for early Kris, my tech order got hosed. I won't finish NC until t100, because after Optics I went for Construction/Ironworking before Philosophy. By the time I do attack I'll probably need to upgrade them to Musketmen... ah well. You gotta take what the map gives you, and it didn't give me a t80 attack point.

    Actually *it could have* if I hadn't coincidentally sent my first trireme north. I didn't discover Portugal until I'd already sent a settler up towards England. I could have attacked Portugal then, but with England pissed at me for settling on her island and Portugal almost immediately wanting to be my friend, (she set up a trade route immediately) I accepted the DOF... so now I'm committed to attack up north first.

    Still, despite the late NC, thanks to early cargo ships I'm #2 in tech already.

    I'm torn. I really want to play with Kris, but the fastest times on this map type are almost certainly by Astronomy rush. Sometimes you have to swim a REALLY long way to get somewhere relatively nearby. :p

    Spoiler :
     
  8. dinanipedro

    dinanipedro highlander

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    an island
    i really enjoy the large islands map, one of my fav.. will be giving it a go
     
  9. TyfoonTurk

    TyfoonTurk Warlord

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    looking at the tables, i think the time to beat is t150

    this time leads to a standard liberty-oxford-navigation rush, no use for kris swordsmen
     
  10. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    While I agree, I really want to use both the UA and the UU in at least one game. Which basically means re-rolling until there are decent expansion islands nearby instead of just re-rolling until your start island can support 2-3 cities, which is much more common. So I'm probably going to do it both ways: one tech rush to navigation, one optics->iron working rush to use the UA and UU. Archipelago is just way more suited to Indonesia than large islands, sadly. Usually the only nearby islands are 1 or 2 tiles it seems.

    EDIT: Also, I don't see how you get t150 from the tables. Large Islands is not at all like Continents or Archipelago, IMHO, because you can't realistically settle more than 2 solid cities on most starts, and even once you get Optics, you're very lucky to find a worthy 3rd spot on a nearby island. Furthermore, because Large Islands tends to have large gaps between the islands, the closest route through coastal waters can be quite long. It's often possible you won't meet what would be a close neighbor until Astronomy, drastically limiting trade opportunities.

    Also, on Continents, you'd only have to fight 4 civs after clearing. Large Islands is arguably faster than a bad Archipelago start, but on a good Archipelago start you get 4 cities up by no later than Optics... this isn't going to happen very often on Large Islands. So, I don't think t150 is very realistic without an extremely lucky start.
     
  11. Salomo

    Salomo Warlord

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    Always hated domination games due to the trading "exploit" (in my view) before BNW, so I'm not very familiar with these... What is the liberty oxford navigation rush?

    Wouldn't optics - archers rush work with low sea levels?
     
  12. KingMorgan

    KingMorgan Deity

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    I guess a liberty GE completes an early Oxford and takes Navigation? or a GS bulb to help along Astro whilst hard building it from rush bought Unis?
     
  13. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    IMHO the best bet is to plant that GS from Liberty ASAP in combination with an early NC. Aim for t70 NC and t85 liberty via cultural CS ally. (If possible... I've done it with heavy trireme scouting and resource and tr quests)

    Navigation requires a lot of turns, and 12/turn ends up being better after about 30 turns. If it were machinery or another medieval tech, I'd bulb.

    If you finish Liberty later than t95 I'd probably bulb it or take a GE because at that point you won't benefit as much from planting.

    IMHO though this map type plays better with Tradition. There usually aren't 4 good city spots accessible early, and investing in Optics early slows down other key techs. A 2 or 3 city tradition start with food cargo ships will maximize tech growth for early navigation.

    However. It absolutely depends on your start. I'm at t150 on my current play through and I planted my 3rd and 4th cities on islands after NC, took two capitals with kris, went for compass before education, and as a result, had a crap ton of galleas when I got Navigation. You definitely get frigates faster taking Education before Compass and oxford bulbing after Astronomy, but that means you barely have ten turns to build galleas. You need rockin hammers to get enough of them out to start a war on t125, or you need a lot of cities... In the end, it works out about the same: I took two cities before navigation but got navigation later. So I'm assaulting my 3rd capital at roughly the same time I would have with earlier Navigation. You have to take what the map gives you. It's ironic: Just when I'd given up on the idea of Liberty, kris rush and planting settlers on Islands, I got a map that made it worth it... but I had already taken Tradition and delayed Optics. Sigh lol.

    I think it was worth it on my map, but wouldn't have been on others. /shrug

    The key to this map is getting 2 Triremes up ASAP. They are your scouts. They're how you're going to get early DOFs and trading partners. So, Sailing is very high priority, and then once you've figured out where you sit on the map, you can decide your next move. IMHO.

    Here is a snapshot from my Kris Rush:

    Spoiler :


    As you an see this was like t140 Navigation, which is not ideal, but way easier to manage getting Frigates up.

    I have another game in progress (my previous screenshot that I shelved for now) with Liberty and t125 Navigation, but with only 3 cities. I have only 2 Frigates finished, because of burning through Astronomy so fast after getting Compass. :p

    It's been fun figuring out how to optimize this map type. I didn't even had a good start... no good ruins, etc., screwed up the timing on my cargo ships. (Built one before a granary... :facepalm: )

    If this 2nd attempt doesn't medal, I'll go back and try a third time with my newly learned strategies. :D

    UPDATE: Ok, what should have been t180 ended up being t190 because I majorly oopsed. I had a long-term plan of attacking Polynesia last, but the bay of Honolulu was tiny ... only 2 tiles to attack from. So, I was going to send my ground troops over there as soon as I capped Copenhagen and London, then cap Lisbon and Seoul while they swam. The idea being whichever navy finished first would show up at Honolulu right when my ground troops did, and the frigates would nuke his forces into submission and then my XBs and muskets would land and help capture.

    I totally forgot to send the ground troops over ahead of time. :facepalm:

    So, here I am, doing two attacks with frigates per turn starting on t180 while 10 more sit idle. :p

    I capped Samoa and Tonga to use to buy troops, but I had to wait 6 turns for rebellion to finish, and then I could only buy 1 unit per turn, so basically, my ground forces that were swimming showed up the same time I finally nuked the capital to zero, which was also the same turn my ground troops spawned in Samoa/Tonga walked over. So VERY poorly planned... and my original plan was so strong! Argh. :(

    As you can see I got bored and killed off two more Polynesian cities since I had so many idle units and sold them to Korea. I tried selling them to William but he liberated them! *grrrr*

    Spoiler :


    EDIT: Also, in retrospect, I should have split my navy 3 ways... then this could have been a t170 game even. I totally forgot that on Immortal the AI techs slower. I'm so used to Deity Continents that I was expecting stronger capital defenses and more enemies to have frigates. Only 2 of them did!
     
  14. casualplayer

    casualplayer Warlord

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    Korea's cap in my game had only 1 tile of coastal exposure, hills blocking all around and shot up from about 40 defense to over 60 defense during our war. Took probably 20 turns to finish them off, bombarding the city with only 2-3 Frigates at a time, continually replacing the one next to the city that was getting smoked by a gatling gun and city damage. Ended up taking Seoul with a Swordsman, not a Kris Swordsman but a gifted one from a City-State. Turn 203.

    I played mostly nice and gold-farmed until around Turn 150, rush-buying stuff all over the place, Colossus and heaps of trade. I lucked out and had room for two decent cities on my home island. Most of my expos were just spots to send Cargo Ships from and spice merchants. Korea was my friend the whole game and Netherlands for most of it so I was getting cash money for nutmeg.

    I was looking forward to a good fight with England. Great Wall and Longbows, no Ships of the Line just yet. But then Elizabeth embarked her Longbows when I attacked one of her expos and it was just shooting fish in a barrel. Stupid AI.
     
  15. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

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    Venice for me, in one of my try.
    Maybe bad luck, maybe bad play, I had no iron in my 3 attempts. In last, I bought 2 from Netherlands an plan to take those 8 of Venice. I failed. :(
    I'm in a bad run in HoF and GoTM, now.
     
  16. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Maybe my aggressive settling of other islands wasn't so crazy after all... It secured me iron. Here I was thinking that I was being suboptimal by going for optics and bronzeworking before NC. Hmm. Of course it was still lucky that I found some, but then, I also captured two capitals before frigates, both of which had iron. My initial iron supply wouldn't have been enough.

    I'll try an education beeline again if time allows. If you get lucky and get iron it's probably the best way to go. Although I'm not sure... The thing about settling expos on other islands is that otherwise you're happiness bound, limiting growth. Early education might not be possible on this map without a GL start or an incredibly diverse island. I'm starting to like my kris rush approach more and more!
     
  17. casualplayer

    casualplayer Warlord

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    Iron is essential in this game. I had 6 and bought 2 from Polynesia to get rolling. I was willing to drop a Settler on a 2 Iron spot just to get some more but instead I couped the one City-State that had some. It's not bad play to get skunked on Iron.

    There is so little room on other islands to land troops that land rushes seem pretty scary. You aren't going to be able to send reinforcements. If a Great Galleas didn't sink them a Barb would.
     
  18. klaskeren

    klaskeren Prince

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    my game crashed turn 95, but im allowed to load the autosave right? would be the equivalent of playing the game in 2 sessions
     
  19. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Of my three attempts, I've had two games with land rush, both were successful. Remember, the AI techs slower on Immortal, so you can still use CBs + kris on t120+ to capture cities. The second game I stopped playing on t180 when it became clear I wasn't going to beat my previous entry. :(

    But, it wasn't for lack of successful rush... it was more a factor of bad luck after that.

    My third attempt I abandoned after I discovered that my island was completely disconnected... I wasn't able to meet anyone until Astronomy. :(

    This map type involves a heavy amount of luck, and you don't know whether you have good luck until t50+ after you explore with Triremes for about 30 turns+ and discover Bronzeworking. Significantly more investment than the G-Minor where you know whether you have a good start within a few turns. You can get super-unlucky with only one good spot for a city, only one neighbor, no iron, and his boundaries block you off until civil service unless you DoW. But even a Dow requires Optics + Construction at a minimum, which means you play 70+ turns just to *start* exploring the map, so no trading partners for the one lux you have multiple copies of until t100... grrr.

    Not sure why some people like this map type so much... way less fun than Archipelago.
     
  20. klaskeren

    klaskeren Prince

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    2 failed attemps, TBH i think turn 120 is possible with luck, turn 140 should be very doable at least.
     

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