G-Major XLVI
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crocivfanatic
Warlord
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- Jul 28, 2013
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crocivfanatic
Warlord
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Order is best on this one,i mean it have iron curtain(extra food on trades)party(+1 food per city) while freedom i think it have only specials consume less food,and that means nothing as we dont use specialist here(tho it would help capital to grow more as it have all specialist populated)But you cant beat extra food on trades.
I restarted and doing a freedom game now - its 100% best idiology tree for this!
Apart that I got a pretty good plan and guess my finish time will be quite ahead of others
Still d like some more trying this, is a decent setup as maplayout is way less important as for other hof setups.
Apart that I got a pretty good plan and guess my finish time will be quite ahead of others
Still d like some more trying this, is a decent setup as maplayout is way less important as for other hof setups.
Foamfollower
Chieftain
Apart that I got a pretty good plan and guess my finish time will be quite ahead of others
Since this is a Time challenge, I think your finish time will be identical to everybody elses
Cromagnus
Deity
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- Sep 11, 2012
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I like this gauntlet just for the variety, but once you do the math, there is only one civ, one set of religious beliefs and one ideology worth playing, which takes some of the fun of it away. Although it was fun figuring that out. But then it's all about a fast start and micromanaging tiles and clicking next turn 500 times. It gives me a headache to stare at 30 city screens every turn, and for some reason, in this challenge I get graphical glitches that hide tile yields on the city screens, forcing me to leave the city screen, move the map view and re-enter it... sometimes multiple times. Each turn.
I'm sure I could add about 1000 points if I played the gauntlet again, but I just don't have the patience for it.
Also, map does matter. Quite a lot in my opinion. To the tune of 50000+ food empire-wide during the course of the game.
I'm sure I could add about 1000 points if I played the gauntlet again, but I just don't have the patience for it.
Also, map does matter. Quite a lot in my opinion. To the tune of 50000+ food empire-wide during the course of the game.
crocivfanatic
Warlord
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I am still sure how Spain with perfect start(lake victoria,3 maritime cs,and second wonder could be happiness wonder to resolve early/mid game happiness problem)could beat this hof even against monty. Also,when it comes to religious set it is kind a question between two things - to take +1 food for shrines and temples,or to take pagoda where you dont grow that fast but you get faster culture and less problem with happiness.And yes i agree with headache,repeating process of buying granary,aqueduct,hospital and medical lab on every new founded city was really tedious.I like this gauntlet just for the variety, but once you do the math, there is only one civ, one set of religious beliefs and one ideology worth playing, which takes some of the fun of it away. Although it was fun figuring that out. But then it's all about a fast start and micromanaging tiles and clicking next turn 500 times. It gives me a headache to stare at 30 city screens every turn, and for some reason, in this challenge I get graphical glitches that hide tile yields on the city screens, forcing me to leave the city screen, move the map view and re-enter it... sometimes multiple times. Each turn.
I'm sure I could add about 1000 points if I played the gauntlet again, but I just don't have the patience for it.
Also, map does matter. Quite a lot in my opinion. To the tune of 50000+ food empire-wide during the course of the game.
Cromagnus
Deity
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Monte definitely has an advantage on this map, but he's still happiness bound in the end, so if you play super-efficiently, you'll just cap out earlier. Without the (rather questionable) tactic of gifting cities for later re-capture, Monte won't get that much higher of a final score than anyone else, assuming the player is playing efficiently. He's still capped somewhere around 15k. IMHO.
dinanipedro
highlander
not enough happy in game for monte with order(11,5k) and autocracy(13,6k)
might try venice with freedom as it's the only ideology i haven't tried yet for this
might try venice
with freedom as it's the only ideology i haven't tried yet for this
Whomever designed this gauntlet did a good job! Multiple people think different civs or ideologies are the best for it. That's a good sign.
I think tommynt and Cromagnus are actually saying the same thing re: the map to some degree. It's not as dependent on a godlike start or lucky setup to do extraordinarily well.
Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk
I think tommynt and Cromagnus are actually saying the same thing re: the map to some degree. It's not as dependent on a godlike start or lucky setup to do extraordinarily well.
Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk
crocivfanatic
Warlord
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Yes indeed you dont have to re-roll zillion of times,almost every map which i got was good.I would even dare to suggest to keep tiny map size for every hof
I really do feel now that india and freedom are needed.
I m really clueless why people even think about autocracy, u need a trillion of useless buildings for it and end up with less happynes as with freedom.
Food growth isnt limiting my overall grow at all - its allways happyness.
I m really clueless why people even think about autocracy, u need a trillion of useless buildings for it and end up with less happynes as with freedom.
Food growth isnt limiting my overall grow at all - its allways happyness.
Cromagnus
Deity
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Yep. India and Freedom. Like I said, there's only one choice for this gauntlet, once you do the math. Every other civ is happiness bound at a lower max score. India is only happiness bound in the beginning. Once you have 30 cities with happiness buildings, India is growth bound for the rest of the game. It's simply a matter of math. Total food limits max population. Food surplus limits the population you can achieve within 500 turns. Local happiness + global happiness allows India to reach an average population size larger than the tiles on a tiny lakes map can actually support. Your polar cities have virtually no food, and even your good cities have mostly 2-food tiles. Unless my math is wrong, even an optimally played game will not run out of happiness if you have stadiums. But, as usual, I expect to be proven wrong.
Cromagnus
Deity
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Could be. When I did the math, it came out that aztec capped lower, but it was close enough (within about 4 pop per city) that any errors in my logic or things I didn't account for could skew it over to the aztec's advantage.
On my Aztec game, I sold cities to the AI and had > 80% influence, so on recapture they only lost 25% population. This allowed me to keep my happiness capped out and then quickly add more population at the end. I finished the game with severe unhappiness after recapturing those cities. This tactic shifts the advantage to the Aztecs IMHO. The dilemma though is that if you capture Mercantile CS early, to grow them and gift to the AI, you aren't getting that +7 happiness. With 4 Mercantile CS, you're losing 28 happiness. The way I figure it though, by capturing the CS early, growing to size 50 and then gifting, you gain more than 28 population in the long run, so it's still better. The CS will probably only be size 16 (8 if you capture them late) if you don't capture early, but if you capture early, grow and gift, they'll shrink due to the AI having happiness issues, but still be around size 28 (21 after recapture) at a minimum. +13 pop per CS outweighs +7 happiness per CS. And the AI can't raze them.
I think with careful manipulation of the AI (selling them happiness resources cheap, letting them steal techs so they get Fertilizer, etc., gifting them archaeologists) you can benefit from their improved tourism rate by planting Eiffel Tower, and benefit from their improved food. (the cities you gift them won't shrink)
So, yeah, it's not 100% clear that Aztecs can't compete, but theoretically anyway, Gandhi has a higher upper bound. Diminishing returns on growth are the part that makes it hard to predict. (I didn't do the math on t500 population size after growth, and my estimate for food/city with tightly packed cities was just that, an estimate)
My Gandhi game went better than my Aztec game, but it was also my second attempt. /shrug
crocivfanatic
Warlord
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- Jul 28, 2013
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Memoryjar
Emperor
I wonder. Went to autocracy because I planned to conquer map around T200 with Artillery. It let me 300 turn of growth.
Freedom is 4 happiness base (mint and water mill are not always possible) + 11 «happiness for specialist» (market, bank, stocks, workshop, factory, universities, school and lab). I don't know how civil society help to grow.
Autocracy is 12 (courthouse) with no need to use specialist slots, so you can work tiles + Prora.
Autocracy strat is pretty weak because AI place them cities not in optimal place for this challenge.
I'll tried again Autocracy to see what it does. So Aztecs or India, or another civ (Siam) ? It's to avoid 5 hours with a non-optimal civ.
Cromagnus
Deity
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If you tightly pack your cities, you get roughly 12 tiles you can work. (6 for first ring, 1/3 of second ring = 6)
Of those 12 tiles, only 9 will be food, roughly. Of those, half will be 2 food. So your base food per city is about 28, being generous. That supports a population size of 14. Add a hospital and granary, and assume every third city gets a water mill and a trade route. Now you're at an average of 41 food per city. That supports 20 population. With Liberty and 11 specialists, you consume 11 less food, supporting 26 population. This isn't the whole story, but the point is, freedom supports more population in a tightly packed map, because more cities = more hospitals and granaries, increasing the total amount of food empire-wide. In a map where all your cities get 3 rings to work this isn't as effective. In map without lakes this isn't as effective. But in this map, it's just better.
Of those 12 tiles, only 9 will be food, roughly. Of those, half will be 2 food. So your base food per city is about 28, being generous. That supports a population size of 14. Add a hospital and granary, and assume every third city gets a water mill and a trade route. Now you're at an average of 41 food per city. That supports 20 population. With Liberty and 11 specialists, you consume 11 less food, supporting 26 population. This isn't the whole story, but the point is, freedom supports more population in a tightly packed map, because more cities = more hospitals and granaries, increasing the total amount of food empire-wide. In a map where all your cities get 3 rings to work this isn't as effective. In map without lakes this isn't as effective. But in this map, it's just better.
Kung-Fu Kitty
Chieftain
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- Sep 16, 2010
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Food trade question:
Is each population worth the same amount of points, i.e., are two 20 pop cities worth the same points as one 40 pop city? Just wondering if I should send food caravans to my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th cities or work on building up the 5th, 6th, and 7th cities that would be smaller and quicker to grow. I'm assuming I should continue sending some to the capitol with Monarchy's happiness modifier.
Is each population worth the same amount of points, i.e., are two 20 pop cities worth the same points as one 40 pop city? Just wondering if I should send food caravans to my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th cities or work on building up the 5th, 6th, and 7th cities that would be smaller and quicker to grow. I'm assuming I should continue sending some to the capitol with Monarchy's happiness modifier.
